hm..

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/...Id=prod1870034a


To be honest, I was happy without plate.


"Glóin began then to talk of the works of his people, telling Frodo about their great labours in Dale and under the Mountain. ‘We have done well,’ he said. ‘But in metal-work we cannot rival our fathers, many of whose secrets are lost. We make good armour and keen swords, but we cannot again make mail or blade to match those that were made before the dragon came."

Apparently they forgot how to craft proper dwarf mail, but they made up for it with this new fangled 'iron plate'.



There's new elve's models too. I'm not sure what to call their chest armour.

This topic comes up from time to time and I believe that suits of Field/Full Plate, as worn in the wars of the late Middle Ages/ Renaissance have no place in Middle Earth. However, individual plate pieces where the plates provide re-enforcement to Mail armour don't bother me.

Anachronistic, if you subscribe to a monolithic Dark Ages level of technical advancement across the whole of ME, but hardly unbelievable.

I subscribe to the 'Imrahil' argument. When he found Eowyn, stricken upon the Pelennor Field, it was her breathe upon his bracer that revealed that she yet lived. Now AFAIK, bracers were only made from leather or steel. It is, I suppose, possible that his bracer was made of highly polished leather but, it is also possible that this is an indication of the existence of complementary pieces of armour made from steel plate.

It cannot be that much harder to make a set of greaves or vambraces from solid metal than a solid metal helmet.

Gloin's statement would seem to confirm that the pinnacle of Dwarvish armouring was in suits of mail. They might have been able to make suits of Plated Mail(not Platemail) although these might also be anachronistic. The Russians wore a form of Plated mail called Kalantar. All of these options could be represented by Armour Rewards in TOR.

On a slightly tangential point have you checked out some of the scale on these new miniatures?

1) Thorin is not a dwarf based on the miniature and neither is Kili! They are more like human figures built on a slightly smaller size (eg, 25 rather than 28mm).

2) And those goblins? With all the mutations? Hmmmm... Maybe more useful as Mewlips?

Nice figures though.

I think they would make excellent Mewlips Rich, good call...

Almost tempted by the Escape from Goblin Town set. Argh, I'm being dragged back in to Games Workshop miniatures. I can't afford it.
The elf armour looks like some kind of banded mail. Like the plate, it looks to have some kind of leather or padded backing. The dwarves look like plate sections riveted to leather backings to me. They also look like clones.

Yeah. Rather than threadcrap, I've started another topic: http://cubicle7.clicdev.com/f/index.php?tr...=ST&f=33&t=4189

I think the presence of articulated full plate armor is dependendant on the culture and timer period we are talking about.

I can imagine any of the original Noldor or Vanyar being able to create Plated Armor. Feanor was amongst the greatest Smiths in Middle-earth.

I can also imagine that tradition being passed on down to the Numenoreans as part of their inheritance.

I imagine the skill would have been lost early in the third age when the kingdoms went into decline, however, though I still think it's possible there are isolated smiths who could, if they had enough material and the right tools, produce plate armor. I also think such Smiths would be relegated to Gondor or Dol Amroth in the 3rd Age. But it's rare enough to be a non-entity, especially in Wilderland.

But even so, there wouldn't be much place for it in a Wilderland Adventurer. Too heavy, and honestly, is 5d armor not enough?? You can pretty much expect to make any protection test with 5d; it's an average roll of 24!! That alone beats any Protection TN, and that's before you add a great helm (+4) or invoke a hope point to add body rating. What the heck would you even do with (presumably) 6d armor from Plate??

Just remember that when Wearied you ignore rolls of 1, 2, and 3 on your success dice so those protection rolls can be severely hampered by this.

That's a good point Rich, but I still think it's overkill for protection, especially in light of the fact that the more you pile on, the sooner you're going to be weary! Assuming plate armor followed the current model (+4 enc = 1d protection), then you're looking at 24 fatigue for 6d armor. That's just...not a good tradeoff.

Of course, I suppose it could be implemented as something else...perhaps a Reward for a Noldor, Gondorian or Numenorean culture that does not yet exist...it could be something like 5d armor for encumbrance of 17 (essentially being on par with a full Mail Hauberk for protection, but with a slightly better "custom fitted" rating for -3 fatigue instead of -2). It could also give a bonus to Awe or Inspire when Inspire is used for Rally Comrades tests.

I agree.

I sometimes do think that Protection Tests should be exempt from the Wearied condition as, like you pointed out, being heavily encumbered by armour means your Fatigue Threshold is higher anyway (and you're therefore closer to being Weary), so it's almost like a double hit wearing such armour - ie, makes you closer to being wearied AND when you are wearied your armour is only half as effective (so what's the point in having any heavy protection).

Well consider the scene: a pair of heroes, Grundi the dwarf panting in his mail hauberk leans heavily on his axe, and his friend Ragnacar the beorning also looks tired as he mops sweat from his eyes, his leather corslet slick with orc blood. Around them are piled heaps of fallen orcs, as the two struggle to catch their breath a huge roar alerts them to new danger. A pair of cave trolls burst through the gate and stomp towards the two heroes.

Now which would you rather be if one of those cave trolls scores a piercing blow Grundi or Ragnacar?

I tend to agree with the cultural variation thing. In the North and Rohan, the chain hauberk is probably the pinnacle of amour technology; but Noldorin (Rivendell) and high Gondorian (Minar Tirith, Dol Amroth) may have conserved part of their more advanced heritage, perhaps only as heirlooms (and thus cultural rewards).

Also every time I read LotR, I always have a feeling that orcs of Mordor wear plated shoes and corselets...

That being said, plate armour does not mean to be a different armour category as you mentioned yourself. It can take after the Men of the Lake's cultural reward "brazen armour": protects and fatigue like a hauberk with some other quirks, like better resistance to puncturing hits and opening volleys...

Alternatively, greaves, vambraces and plastrons could add to the armour's total like a helm.

Sorry Poosticks, I don't really see what you're getting at here as that isn't really the discussion I was having, but if they were BOTH wearied then you'd go with the heavily armoured one.

But your question above doesn't address the middle bit here that myself and Rocmistro were both referring to - ie, low endurance loss and the heavily armoured are (very likely to be) weary and that's not the case for lighter armoured people. So the more interesting question is would you rather be heavily armoured and wearied or lightly armoured and unwearied? I'd prefer to be unwearied as that would mean I'm fully able to deal with tests/actions so (if required) I could retreat, outrunning the trolls (and Grundi).

I like that. Easy to houserule as well - each pair adding +1 (if leather) or +2 (if metal), encumbrance at 1 or 2 points respectively for each pairing?

Just as a side note, in my games I use a different nomenclature for armors:

1d = cloth armor
2d = leather armor
3d = mail armor
4d = plate armor

and I don't allow 5d, unless as mithril mail, which I accept as 5d (and weighting as much as mail, 12)

I know that full platel is not pointed in any of the middle earth mythology (at least as long as I can recall), but I like the idea.

The cool thing about plate is that it's easier to make than mail, plus, as encumbrance goes, it's 'lighter' than you would think, even more than mail, some would say.

I've worn both and in my experience I was more nimble in plate than in a hauberk. I won't say I could swim wearing plate, but then again I never tried swimming with a hauberk either.

The steel (even bronze) doesn't have to be that thick to provide just as much or better protection than mail. Now the later plate was a different story because they had to worry about firearms, but that's something we hopefully won't see here. You really are wearing a wearisome slab of metal on your chest in that case.

In game terms, honestly I would give this dwarf plate the same encumbrance as a hauberk. But, I don't plan on offering plate as an option, so there you go.

The point I was making about Grundi and Ragnacar was that sometimes you are going to get into long drawn out battles and having a good coat of mail would certainly be a boon.

Of course a lightly armoured hero is going to be better off than a heavily armoured fellow usually (besides the risk of getting wounded), but in a long battle maybe not so much.

As to plate armour, you could make it similiar to Brazen armour but +1 dice against piercing and slashing and -1 dice against blunt. Wouldn't that fit the bill? Would save you from orc arrows/swords/spears but not so much against troll hammers.

Quite true, didn't realise what you were getting at!

Yeah, there are lots of variations as to how plate could function in order to support/maintain in-game balance - a consideration that doesn't apply to real life equivalents but something we often need to consider for our RPGs.

Personally, I just wouldn't have it in my TOR campaign except in the form of ancient armour and so those would be obtained through Rewards or some other achievement/goal - therefore having whatever attributes you considered relevant.

There are some great posts on here, however, my two pence is that I hope ToR keeps the armor exactly as is - mostly sans plate. It just feels more like the books, & even Halbarad's excellent reference to Imrahil at the Pelennor Fields appears to be one of the few exceptions

An interesting topic. In all we have from Tolkien, including Sil77, HoMe, Letters etc. with scattered info on the earlier ages and armour and weaponry of the beleriandic people (Noldor, Sindar etc.) we only hear of mail or scale armour. It seems that even the advanced earlier races did not have anything like the 15th century Plate armour.
For the Noldor in Aman, it is even more highlighting that Tolkien speaks in colourful descriptions of their helmets, shields and swords/weaponry - but is totally silent on body armour. The first mentioning of body armour is the note about the dwarven smiths inventing mail in the First Age (and being unsurpassed in this even by the Noldor). It seems that in Tolkien's design, mail armour (with small add-ons like vambraces) is the epitome of armour design in Middle-earth (at least up to the end of the Third Age), and something like the late medieval Plate Armour unknown even among the "advanced" races.

As a bottom line, in all of Tolkien's writings there is never any positive evidence of something like late 14th or 15th century Plate armour of the kind so abundant in Europe's museums and castles (especially England!). The evidence we have though (regardless of age or race invloved) is only for scale, mail or leather armour.

Cheers
Tolwen

Agreed Tolwen!

I can see why someone would want to integrate some plate mail into their game & if that works for you, go with it.

The books seem fairly consistent, however, that no one wore anything to equal something out of the 15th - 16th Centuries (or possibly even the 14th).

BTW, I've mentioned this before & just found the reference. Tolkien wrote to a fan & briefly addressed her concerns - including 'costumes' (on 14 Oct 1958):

The Rohirrim were not 'mediaeval', in our sense. The styles of the Bayeux Tapestry (made in England) fit them well enough, if one remembers that the kind of tennis-nets [the] soldiers seem to have on are only a clumsy conventional sign for chain-mail of small rings.

On the flip side, the editor adds a footnote that might give some of you a chuckle:

Sc. belong to our 'mythological' Middle-Ages which blends unhistorically styles and details ranging over 500 years, and most of which did not of course exist in the Dark Ages of c. 500 A.D.

The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien. Humphrey Carpenter, 280-81.