If a player does the Prepare Shot task with a bow and hits it's an automatic Called Shot/Piercing blow.

What if the hit itself was a natural Piercing blow?

Is that two Piercing blows requiring two protection rolls?

I say yes because it would be, well, cool.

But I guess it could get crazy with taking called shot after prepare shot and also rolling a natural piercing blow.

The text on page 162 of the Adventurer's book says about Called shots, "...these effects are applied in addition to the normal consequences of a successful attack (loss of Endurance, Piercing blow, etc.)." So, your answer is "yes!"

When you succeed on an attack roll using Prepare Shot, if the Called shot effect is a Piercing blow and you also rolled a Piercing blow, then the result is two Piercing blows with one shot.

Nice. Thanks. Hope it happens for one on my players. Mechanically that must be how Bard took down Smaug.

I think we already had this conversation.

http://cubicle7.clicdev.com/f/index.php?tr...&showtopic=3195

My take (as it was then) is that the common sense says no.

@doctheweasel, I don't think this is a matter of common sense due to the language of AB 162 that I quoted. If I am wrong, I would like to hear it from the powers that be, and perhaps a clarification in the rules would be in order for the second printing.

What I think is common sense is that you cannot declare a Called shot at the same time as performing a Prepare shot. Obviously, the result of a successful Prepare shot attack is an automatic Called shot effect (which for an arrow is a Piercing blow). Therefore, you could never achieve 3 Piercing blows with one ranged attack using Prepare shot.

According to the language of AB 162, however, you could achieve the automatic Called shot effect (a Piercing blow) from a successful Prepare shot attack roll, which is applied in addition to the normal consequences of a successful attack, including a Piercing blow. So, you could achieve 2 Piercing blows, one from the automatic Called shot effect and one from the normal consequences of the attack, which is a Piercing blow on the roll.

I have a Hobbit with a King's Blade (If you roll a great or extraordinary success on an attack using a King’s blade, you automatically inflict a Piercing blow.)

I'm ruling they can get two Piercing blows if they hit with a natural Piercing blow (first) and a great/extraordinary success (second) but the rules are not clear about this circumstance.

I think there is a contradiction in the rules, because in the Called Shots table we can read "The attack result is a Piercing blow, regardless of the outcome of the Feat die." So, it is "replacing" the common mechanic (match Bow's Edge).

As you suggest, I think we need some clarification here.

A blow is either Piercing or it is not. I think it's pretty clear on its face.


But hey, if you want a game where a single arrow can fell a troll in one shot, while a two-handed axe cannot, then you may consider the timing:

Say a single attack provokes two Piercing Blows. That doesn't necessarily mean it can cause two Wounds. For that to happen, you need to believe that the two Piercing Blows occur in sequence rather than both at once. You have to already be wounded for the second to take effect, but you weren't wounded already – at least you weren't before the attack. One would have to happen before the other to get two wounds, but it's not clear that it works that way rather than applying everything all at once.

Depending on how you see the timing, the effect could be that you have to make two protection rolls to avoid a single Wounded state.

Your suggestion here is very sound. But, the more I think about it, I wonder if there is simply a mistake in the rules concerning Called shots.

Okay, let me lay this out again...

Prepare shot allows a player to give up a round (while aiming) to gain an automatic Called shot on a successful roll (no Tengwars necessary).

So, our controversy is not with Prepare shot, but about the effect of a Called shot, regardless of how it is obtained, whether through the normal channels or Prepare shot.

A Called shot grants a special result according to the weapon type in addition to the normal consequences of the roll (including a Piercing blow).

But what about bows and spears? A successful Called shot with a sword causes the enemy to drop its weapon AND if the Feat die shows 10 or higher, it also causes a Piercing blow. That makes perfect sense. But, if a successful Called shot with a bow or spear causes an automatic Piercing blow, and the Feat die shows a 10 (bow) or 9 (spear), does it cause an additional Piercing blow?

One answer is "No." It's common sense. One ranged attack with a bow or spear should only be able to cause 1 Wound at the most. If this is the correct answer, then bows and spears are a little more limited during Called shots than the other weapons, which all have the potential to cause a Piercing blow in addition to their special effect. On the flip side, only bows and spears can be used with Prepare shot AND the Called shot special effect for bows and spears is a Piercing blow and not something else. So, every time a bow or spear succeeds at a Called shot, a Piercing blow results, while the other weapons are not guaranteed to roll a Piercing blow even if they succeed at the Called shot.

The other answer is "Yes, but..." Yes, but how do you handle it? Are the two Piercing blows capable of leading to a Wound each? (This would make bows and spears the most deadly weapons available.) Or does the bow or spear just force the victim to roll two Protection rolls to keep from taking 1 Wound? That sounds the most reasonable if the answer is 'yes.'

After reading this whole thread - I will say this is the simplest and most eloquent way of resolving this.

Two chances of failing a Protection Test to receive a wound is nothing to scoff at.

[QUOTE=JamesRBrown,Dec 19 2012, 10:22 PM] [QUOTE=doctheweasel,Dec 19 2012, 10:56 AM]
Or does the bow or spear just force the victim to roll two Protection rolls to keep from taking 1 Wound? That sounds the most reasonable if the answer is 'yes.' [/QUOTE]
I think that it depends on whether they are rolling twice and taking the worst of the two rolls, rolling twice to resist two wounds or rolling twice to resist one wound. The first two of those options I can see being ok but the last gives the person you are fighting two chances of making the protection test which makes ranged weapons far weaker than simply saying that they inflict one wound.
Just my thoughts.
E

Edit

Having said that, I have just read on page 162 of the adventurers book a passage which I will quote "The following table (Called Shots) details the effects triggered by a successful called shot: these effects are applied in addition to the normal consequences of a successful attack (loss of endurance, Piercing blow, etc). I think that the comment about it applying a piercing blow regardless of the outcome of the feat dice is implying not that it replaces the normal piercing blow but that you get a piercing blow even if the feat dice did not roll the edge rating.

AB162, it says: "The attack resulted in a Piercing blow, regardless of the outcome of the Feat dice". Wich attack?

AB163: "Prepare Shot: If the player succeeds in a ranged attack during the following round, he is considered to have successfully achieved a Called shot." That attack.

The effect of the Called shot (Bow/Spear) is clear: you get a Piercing blow no matter the result of the Feat dice in your attack. And NOT an extra Piercing blow.

The word in addition in "AB162: these effects are applied in addition to the normal consequences of a successful attack (loss of Endurance, Piercing blow, etc.)" doesn't implies that Bow/Spear Called shot is resolved as a self-dependent action, because the output text is considering the attack as a base element to trigger its effect.

This way, the in addition part is taken as a consideration and not as a summation. This is my best try to elucidate this rule.

This is a good argument for the "No" answer. Which means that bows and spears are potentially less effective on a successful Called shot. All other weapons have the potential to gain their Called shot effect in addition to a Piercing blow if the Feat die result is high enough. But, on the flip side, the other weapons can never be used with Prepare shot, which guarantees a successful Called shot effect.

Yeah. I think a Piercing Blow (Wound) is more powerful than Disarm (Use Secondary Attack/Brawl) or Break Shield (Parry -1/-2/-3).

Now the question is: Is worth to declare a Called shot or Prepare Shot using a Bow or a Spear?

Let's use an example to answer that: if Trotter (Bow 2d) attacks a Snaga Tracker (Parry 3) his chances to get a Piercing blow are below (numbers in parenthesis are the chances that the Snaga Tracker gets actually wounded).
Normal attack: 5.71% (3.31%)
Called shot: 10.47% (6.07%)
Prepare shot: 34.25% (19.87%)

The thing is, as we know, a failed Called shot does 0 lose of Endurance. So, Prepare Shot is a very good Task, because you just need to hit the enemy and the Called shot will be automatic. And spending Hope rises the chances!

I think the best moment to Prepare Shot is when an enemy is wounded, because it's Protection Test will be harder.

Bottom line: Bows and Spear are not weaker because their Called shot is not added to the normal Piercing blow.

I hope my calculations and analysis are correct.

I am afraid I will have to disagree, RAW read to me to say that the called shot piercing blow occurs and then the effect of the dice roll itself is applied. Personally I would rule that each piercing blow is given its own protection roll so failing just one roll isn't immediately 2 wounds but definately has the chance of one.

But then no one said we all had to agree.

E

A quick question, when getting hit will the target also get the Endurance damage?
Lets say you hit with your axe and you destroys the shield, will it also effect the Endurance?

Again, RAW suggest that normal damage would occur. In the case of the example you gave the axe could break straight through and still hit the target.
The adventurers book states: these effects are applied in addition to the normal consequences of a successful attack (loss of endurance, Piercing blow, etc)

Thank you mr E

That is fascinating. So, if your calculations are right, Trotter could double his chances to kill the Snaga outright by declaring a Called shot (first from a 5.71% chance to a 10.47% chance to get a Piercing blow, then from a 3.31% chance to a 6.07% chance that the Snaga would fail its Protection test, resulting in a Wound). But, of course, if Trotter failed the attack roll on a Called shot, he would do absolutely no Damage. By giving up a round for Prepare shot, his chances are six times greater than a normal attack and triple compared to a Called shot. But, if he misses the attack roll, he not only causes zero Damage, but he has also taken up two rounds.