So... all this talk about Recovering Fatigue Points and resting at a "Safe-place-that-is-not-a-Sanctuary" got me looking... I know... I shouldn't.

Prolonged Rest... the term appears in the Adventurer's Book only. It is nowhere to be found in the Loremaster's Book.

My reason for looking more closely is that I have a vague feeling there might be some difference between:

a) a nights sleep in the wild under the stars,
a nights sleep in a safe place... like a tavern or inn,
c) a nights sleep (or more) in a Santuary.

So, you know, I tried to figure out if this was the case or not. Why? Because I want there to be a difference. And I thought the Term Prolonged Rest was specific enough to might include some clues to this enigma.

Alas... the term is used in a couple of places but it is never defined in certain terms. Reading only these instances where the Term appears I get the feeling it's a Simple Nights rest. Nowhere does it say "safe place" even... so...

AB 129 Elvish Dreams for instance say that:

I read this to simply mean, if you go to sleep for the night you also get the regular "rest" benefits. So even if you don't sleep you still regain Wisdom-number in Endurance.

But looking at Tough in the Fibre AB 132:

Here I get the feeling you are resting several days... it says "every day"... if it had said "every night" it could still be that a prolonged Rest is a Nights sleep... here with this Virtue, I don't know... How does this work? I don't really know.

AB 145:

Here it feels like You get a Prolonged Rest Every Day (when you sleep... though the sentence feel a little funny to me, it might be due to English being a second language... it would have made more sense to simply say that you get a Prolonged Rest Every Night you sleep... )... So will Tough in Fibre work every night (when I sleep)? Or does it require a Full day of resting?

All this thinking makes my head hurt...

... and what if I rest a full day and a full night... is that TWO prolonged Rests or ONE? More? Three maybe? since a Night is usually 8 hours and there are 24 hours in a full day....

I need help...

/wolf

Here's a cut-n-paste from a summary sheet (in the works) I made for my players,
-----
Short Term Recovery
1. An Unwounded character that rests for at least ½ hour after a battle recovers his Heart in Endurance.
2. The “Rally Comrades” Task recovers Endurance for characters damaged in that battle (p.162).
3. Removing a Helm reduces Fatigue by 3 (not 6), to delay or undo a Weary status.

Long Term Recovery
1. Healing Tests may be made once per character per day.
2. Healing TN is 14
3. A successful Healing test designates a Wound as Treated and improves recovery from 1 to 2 per day.
4. Endurance recovery occurs after a Prolonged rest (day at camp without travel, a night’s sleep). After the rest,
[ WOUNDED & UNTREATED = recover 1 <> WOUNDED & TREATED = recover 2 <> UNWOUNDED = recover 2 + HEART ]
5. Unmark Weary after a Prolonged rest when your Endurance is higher than your Fatigue.
6. Unmark Wound after a Prolonged rest that results in Endurance reaching its maximum value.
7. After a Prolonged rest, Fatigue is re-calculated by your current gear/armour/weapons. Fatigue is not changed even if you remove them AFTER a Journey, except the Helm (by 3).
-----
This does not include the virtues and other tweaks you mention, but I think they only modify these cure healing rules. Prolonged rests determine Endurance recovery.

Characters must recover Endurance in the midst of the adventure, and plan to do so, or they will more than likely start to pass out, be Weary, and die. It can't be put off until they return to a sanctuary.

A night's sleep is the usual time and place, but if that is interrupted with an attack, or spent travelling, they might lose it. If, however, the company were to stay in camp, resting, sharpening weapons, patrolling a limited area, do some fishing, I would call that a Pronlonged rest too.

I agree. Prolonged Rest is used too often to not be defined and it is the cause of confusion elsewhere like the recovery of Fatigue from Journeying.

Let's hope we get clarification.

Wouldn't that undermine how Journey's work? The assumption is that you gain Fatigue and can't recover that until a prolonged rest at the destination. Allowing it for night's spent quitely on the road, would mean that the cost would just disappear many times during the Journey, so as to be no real penalty.

FWIW Amado has helpfully clarified the matter in terms of Prolonged Rests and Journeys for the recovery of Fatigue:

I will have to chime in with young Skywalker here...

Look at LMB p38 (the Journey First Example up on the left)

That Journey calls for (depending on season) between 11 (winter) and 5 (summer) Travel tests... (I know they're called Fatigue Tests).

What would it matter what any of those Rolls did if you could take a Total of 30 Prolonged Rests doing this Journey??? (That is the number of Nights you have on this Journey.) Besides... since you don't roll one per day.... how would you divide these rests? Even split?

I asked in one place; How do you recover while Travelling? (And I'm not talking about Fatigue raises exclusively, but them AND regular Endurance Loss, Wounds etc.)

My second question, the one that started this thread is: What defines a Prolonged Rest? (i.e. How many hours does it have to be? What other circumstances have to be in place in terms of "safety"? etc.)

This is my no1 Fear with this game so far... That all these beautiful Travelling Rules will mean absolutely nothing in the end.

I love it to bits, truly but this part worries me and I'll make damn sure the Journey Rules actually have an impact, even if it means I will have to make up my own rules to do so.

What I want to see is what you see frequently in the books!

The Company staying for a week (or was it more?) at Beorns place to rest after a long Journey. Frodo staying for god knows how long in Rivendell, to heal and to rest after the Journey. Frodo again staying in Lorien for days...

In between these long pauses I would like life to be grim. But at the same time I don't want the mechanics to break down and my players to fall unconscious from travelling after four days in the wild.

/wolf

I agree with you GhostWolf69.

What I'm planning on doing is the following: No resting while traveling. A prolonged rest can be taken at a sanctuary and possibly at a city or village. I would stay a few days at a sanctuary or at least a week in a friendly town or village.

Of course first I need to run the game a few times and see how the rules actually play.

I have something similar in mind, but I have no idea what impact it will have really. So... like you say, we'll have to test it in game to know more.

/wolf

I wasn't talking about Fatigue gained from failed Travel tests, but prolonged rests to heal Endurance during the Adventure phase. I would assume once you arrive at a destination, you might spend more than a single day there.

My fear is that the board-game style rules overshadow the role-playing, and the focus being the player-character's interaction with the environment. The rules call for lots of skill rolls to achieve what would otherwise be role-playing and player described actions that move the story forward. Of course, you don't have to skill roll everything, but they're in the rules because, I think, the boundaries between a board game and an rpg might be coming a bit too close.

Regarding your fear, and what I plan to do, is Fatigue gained from failed Travel tests recovers after a good long rest at a safe place, possibly not even until the Fellowship phase. Endurance recovers daily.

I am not suggesting anything that would feed your fear. I personally advocate keeping the definition of prolonged rest vague and having the freedom to use it when appropriate. However, understanding what the intention was will help you use that freedom to the best advantage.

I think one important thing that should be noted is that many of these rules are there to better capture the flavour of middle earth.

Having both played in and reffed the Decipher Lord of the Rings RPG I know it is very easy for a game to simply become a standard fantasy game with a few names changed.

I think the strength of these rules is that they will help to make this game serve as an entry game into roleplaying for those who are Tolkein fans, the rules will ease them into the hobby.

For those of us who are experienced RPGers, we can always remove or house rule those which don't work for us, it specifically states in the Loremasters book that "The system for The One Ring has been designed to be as flexible as possible, to allow room for the Loremaster and players to customise it and tailor it to model their style of play"

Now personally I am planning to run the game as written at least for the first session or two, at least until I have had a chance to get my head around it. I may house rule a few things for my own preferences and those of the players.

One thing that may end up being house ruled for me is the amount of undertakings that can be done being based on the length of time the fellowship phase takes.

My own read on the travel rules is that any fatigue gained through travel rolls can only be recovered at the end of the journey. You can probably halt your journey early if you find somewhere relatively safe (i.e. a village, or Beorn's homestead) and gain the benefits of a prolonged rest there. Most of the time though I would say that you retain any fatigue until you have rested at the end of the journey.

E

I totally agree with you. I would certainly NOT like that either. WFRP3 killed the whole line for me. DD4 was equally crap, even though that to me was not such a big loss... but WFRP... damn! I own way to much to that game to just watch it slip down the boardgamification drain without crying out in agony.

So NO. That is not what I'm trying to do here.

I simply want to get some clarifications on what the rules are suppose to do and not.

And Recovery during travel is (IMO) a little hazy.

Forget about Fatigue Increase and the Healing of the same. We know that by now. Let's move on.

Let's continue the example above.

Look at LMB p38. Let's assume it's summer. That calls for. 5 Fatigue Tests in total.

1 Northern Dalelands (Border Land)
3 Grey Mountains Narrows (Wild Land)
1 Upper Anduin Vales to the House of Beorn (Border Land, Free Land)

And it will take 30 days to complete.

Let's say the Company gets an "eye"-failure on their Second Roll. (The First one in the Narrows), and they stumble upon a Hill Troll. (Poor sods.)

In the Ensuing Battle, people loose Endurance, are Wounded, become Weary.
They catch their Breaths after the Battle (regaining some endurance from the 30 minute break) and... then what?

Can they continue to travel every day, even if they have wounded and weary characters in the Company? Will this affect the time it takes to travel? Will the weary status affect Fatigue Tests? Will the "prolonged rest" they get every night help them recover just as much as if they had been staying in bed at a safe place for a full day? How many "prolonged rests" (nights) would you allow before the next Fatigue Test (and potentially the next battle)? Should I divide the total number of days with the number of tests to see how many nights pas between them?

Answering these questions will NOT turn the game into a flipping board game. It will only help me, the Loremaster to understand what to do, and how to handle the situation, because frankly, right now, I don't understand. I hope that is clear.

/wolf

And let's look at this Hazard:

What if I roll this on the Last Leg of the Journey, the Last Fatigue Test made....
.... I don't know what this means... "half the length of the journey"

Does that mean we should only Count 15 nights Rest instead of 30.... and how should we have known THAT when we started out???

Or should it be half the REMAINING number of nights?

I say again... Recover and Travelling is a little hazy. I need clarifications.

I'll probably find more of these if I keep looking.

/wolf

Hmmmm... I just realized something... maybe I've been blind. (Wouldn't be the first time)

Could it be, that I've been wrongly assuming that you roll Fatigue Tests as you go, consecutively, and handling the eventual Hazard in the order they come up?

Could it be that the whole Journey should just be bundled into "all rolls at once", sort out the Hazards, think about what they mean, have a battle apply effects and Fatigue Increases in one go and then reach your goal?

Maybe that is why I feel the sort of step-by-step logic is missing? There's not suppose to be any? You just do it all in one go. And if there's a battle or two you play them out separately and simply decide when they happen?

No... that cannot be... since you have different TNs for different Regions, so you have to keep them apart... but....

I need more coffee...

/wolf

Well you confused me And I don't have any issues with the text you quote

So how would you handle that?

/wolf

As said, you posts confuse me as to what your issue is.

Endurance is recovered after a night's sleep even on a Journey. Weary can also be removed if Endurance rises above Fatigue after a night's rest even on a Journey.

Fatigue from failed Fatigue tests stays throughout the Journey. It disappears at 1 per night's sleep at the Journey's end.

Uncomfortable Lodgings prevents Endurance being recovered (the first limb) for half the length of the planned Journey. If you are more than half way in the Journey, I would have it disappear at Journey's end. I would also allow PCs to consider a detour as a result to deal with the issue.

Prolonged rest means a night's sleep, but it has a special meaning for recovering Fatigue from failed Fatigue tests as we have seen. This is really the only confusion.

Well... it is clear you don't understand my problem, but thank you for trying none the less.

In the mean while I think I might have solved my own problem.

LMB p129 (yes inside the Adventure)

So... it was as I suspected. ALL Fatigue Tests for the entire Journey are done at the same time when the Journey starts. They are NOT (as I first thought) spaced out and executed in a consecutive fashion as the Journey Progresses.

Out of these rolls, you count the Number of hazards, etc and plan events accordingly. (so Poor Lodgings would always apply to the WHOLE Journey for instance) Fatigue Increases are Applied at the END of the Journey and don't really affect the Journey itself. Neither does Endurance Losses from Battle, and other Hazards affect the Fatigue Test since they happen After the Tests have already been made.

Actually I think that example right there in the adventure cleared up all my questions. I'm good to go! Wolf does a little dance.

/wolf

Just read the travel rules again (and the forums) and my interpretation of them is:

Endurance loss (as a result of hazards) is applied when it happens during the journey.

Unless prevented from doing so by a failed Hazard check, Endurance is gained through rest as they travel (the rate depending on their current state of health).

Fatigue loss is applied at the end of the journey.

For each night they spend in safe place (inn, sanctuary etc), they lose one travel Fatigue point.

Until then, they suffer the consequences of the increased Fatigue, meaning they may be weary at that point, or prone to weariness in combat.

The rules make it clear that you can gloss over this and do the rolls quickly to skip to the action, but I feel that taking a little time with the journey and roleplaying the hazards will help maintain the mood of the game, after all, there is a lot of travel in the Hobbit and LOTR!

This makes sense to me, as when the party are headed into the wilds, they are relying on their survival roles (Guide, Scout, Huntsman, Lookout) to get them there is good health.

The return journey is (probably) to a safe place and may lead to a Fellowship Phase, where they have plenty of time to recover.

There is one more thing to remember... Hope!

If the fatigue check is failed, spend hope to counter it and there will be no immediate consequences (assuming that can turn a failure into success). I know hope is a finite resource, but it's there to be used!

Greetings

From p31 of LMB "The rules for journey resolution can be used either to
quickly summarise the effects of a journey on a group of travellers and allow the Loremaster to rapidly resume the gameplay with what befalls the adventurers when they reach their destination, or to play out the journey in a detailed way. In both instances, the Loremaster should apply the following five steps."

So they are designed to do either overall or step by step - which may not help the confusion.

The p.32 "If a company is travelling for a week or more across different terrain types or traversing several regions, the Loremaster could consider splitting the itinerary into a number of legs, making the calculations and rolls for
each leg separately. The sample journeys described at page 37 show several examples of journeys divided into separate legs."

So in the LMB p38 example a failure in the 'narrows' I'd apply the effects (failed guide, lack of sleep etc) to the second leg only. As to recovery after a battle with a Troll then it depends - if they are getting sleep then they should be recovering Endurance albeit slowly even on the road.

Maybe we could do a calculation for Frodo between Weathertop and Rivendell?

Regards

Edward

Got it.

I would not apply Fatigue Increases separately for each leg though. But apply it all at Journeys End.

But yes... maybe if it is split up in Legs, it would make sense to roll each leg separately first, and apply any effects, like Endurance Loss, Weary etc. Before rolling the next Leg.

It really doesn't bother me that much now, cause now at least I think I have cracked the code (or at least know how I will handle it myself):

ALL Fatigue Tests at the START of the Journey/Leg.
Resolve any Hazards, apply effects.
Allow Rests every night (if applicable, count nights if necessary).
Apply ALL Fatigue Increase at Journey's END.

Check.

... it took me long enough.... I can be thick sometimes... sorry if it bothers you guys.

Now all that remains is to see if Endurance Loss and Wounds during Journey's ever remains once the Journey is completed or not... there are many rests on the way, and it feels like Heroes Heal pretty fast.

But that's another story.

/wolf

Endurance will heal on the journey, just count the number of nights that remain after the injury or hazard occurred, and heal Endurance accordingly.

Wounds require a skill check, and only one per day, but as there may be days or weeks of travel after the wound occurred, it is likely to heal by journeys end!

I know. I agree.

Question is how rare it will be that a Journey End's with Wounded and/or Weary characters.

See I would have liked the feel of that, since I think it lies in the Setting that they should from time to time end up in that position.

But that remains to be played and tested. That is not something I can foresee, even if I now (finally) understand the rules.

/wolf

That is the big question! How often will it occur?

And without playing, there is no way of knowing.

Given that travel is only a small part of the actual game time, we may not know the answer for months... which is a journey in itself!

The way the rules are written, short journeys should have minimal effects and long journeys will probably have lasting effects.

But that is how it should be!

I think applying the gained Fatigue from failed Travel tests at the END of the planned Journey, for which the Travel tests were made all at once, is right.

The reason why, besides it's what the rules say, is because if a Hazard occurs on the journey that involves some sword swinging, the increased Fatigue value (however small) will not be used. It keeps the Hazard from being a Journey stopper.

Like someone else mentioned, if you fail one or two travel tests, you'll probably spend a Hope and invoke a Heart bonus to cancel any more failed tests. Unless, of course, you're an adrenal junkie who wants to live on the edge of danger BABY.

... or pursued by wraiths, perhaps ...

I have read the Journey rules again and I don't see how you come to this conclusion. There is nothing explicitly contrary but it doesn't feel right to me.

I plan to have the rolls made as they travel, dealing with the Hazards as they arise. The rules seem to support that interpretation at least as much. Also, TBH I think it will make it feel less like a dice fest and allow me to riff more of PC actions, which address major potential concerns with this subsystem.

I understand, and I agree; there is not anything explicit in the rules that supports this way of doing it, neither is there any support for doing it the way you intend to (and the way I first assumed it was done.

But doing it that way (consecutively) does raise a lot of questions. (At least to me, as this thread testifies) and doing it "up-front" solves all those questions.

The only support I have for my way of reading the rules is the "Example" or "Loremaster Instructions" in the Introductory Adventure.

LMB p129

This is immediately when they set out on the Journey, right after Planning. It tells you explicitly to roll "the Fatigue Tests required" and record the outcome, for future use. i.e. Hazard/Encounter and Fatigue Loss.

LMB p129

Once you have the result of these tests written down the Loremaster can use this to plan events on the Journey ahead. It will also make sense to some of those events, like the one that says you only count "half" the number of Nights for Prolonged Rests during the Journey etc.

But I totally agree.... I cannot see it as Explicit anywhere.... hence all my questions about this. A simple example where one of the Journeys are "played-through step-by-step" so that we could all have seen the rules in action would have gone a long way to answer these questions.

/wolf

Cool. I read both of those passages as supporting having the PCs all make a Fatigue roll. The GM then narrates that part of the journey and uses the result of those rolls as the basis for the narration. After that part of the journey, another roll is made by all PCs and the process is repeated.

Penalties and hazards do apply later than the rolls, even in this staggered approach. Also the half the nights Hazard seems to work well in either approach.

I guess that I just don't see the benefit of the idea of rolling all the Fatigue rolls first. In practice, I suspect that trying to narrate all the scenes of the journey based on what would be quite a mass of information from all the rolls up front would be difficult.

Plus you can't build on the narration as you go which adds a lot of tension. For example, looking at the Hobbit and the journeys through the Misty Mountains and Mirkwood, I think being able to adapt the narration and Hazards based on what happened in the last set of rolls gives a sense of the journey evolving into an adventure of it's own and not knowing how it will end. Having all the rolls first gives the end result up front making the narrative almost a formality. I think this could shift focus from narrative to mechanics.

I hear you Sky-guy... I'm reading a lot into those few words I know...

Roll the Tests Required (i.e. all), record the outcome to later apply Fatigue and Hazards triggered.

Then it tells you too look for Cool hazards to use and prepare.... and then the Journey starts with the Players going south to the The Stair of Girion.

The only real argument for doing it this way is that it solves some other gripes I had with doing it the other way around. And yes you are absolutely right... it might feel a little too mechanic. But time will tell.

/wolf

Definitely keen to hear how it goes.