I wonder about the Burglary specialty (only available to treasure-hunters)

p97 of AB: Burglary
"This venerable talent includes pickpocketing, lock picking and, in general, any shadowy way to get hold of the possessions of others or access protected areas. Treasure-Hunters are generally skilled burglars."

This seems to cover quite a few activities and could be abused by players : this" shadowy way to get hold of the possessions" could involve sneaking, lockpicking, finding traps, hiding in shadows, pickpocketing, etc...

The trait could be invoked to automatically succeed in a lot of game activities. It also makes traits like "elusive" pretty much useless for a Treasure Hunter since Burglary could cover that aspect as well.

What's you take on it ?

It's up to the Loremaster whether to allow an "automatic success" use of a trait, and the general tone of the rules is that they should only be allowed as a means of speeding up play in situations which don't radically alter the scenario.

Thus, if the players go off at a tangent from the main plot of the scenario and the Loremaster wants to speed up play and get them back on track as soon as possible, he could waive the need for a die roll.

If, on the other hand, stealing something is a vital part of the plot of the scenario, I would say it requires a die roll, but give the player an advancement point if they make it.

What would they roll? What skill?

I would use Riddle. It covers things where you have to use your Wits to figure something out which isn't obvious, like how a lock works.

If the player complains that they should be allowed an automatic success, just tell them that this lock is unlike any they have seen before. Pickpocketing could be similar - i.e. the target's clothing is of such design that it makes pickpocketing difficult.

As he said, it they need to move past some drunk orcs, why bother with a roll any skilled burglar could easily avoid them, but what about a pack wargs on guard, now that require a little more skill.

Also remember only one player can do it, so great the treasure hunter snuck past the troll but what about the rest of the fellowship.

I like the auto success, why would a skilled thief suddenly be foiled unless it is a very challenging situation.

One more tip. When trying to identify which skill is most suited to a task, remember that they are arranged in a very clever grid pattern, which relates them to an attribute (top row of grid) and also a skill group (rightmost column of grid).

Thus, if you have to sneak passed some guards that is related to Wits plus Movement, so Stealth is the obvious skill to use. Hiding in Shadows is related to Wits plus Survival, so I would use Hunting for that. Likewise, finding traps is Wits plus Perception, so the skill to use is Search. You get the picture. Riddle is related to Wits and Custom, and as Custom is kind of knowledge of people from a Wits perspective, it naturally leads one to think of Riddle for locks, pickpocketing etc.

Going by the RAW, that should be Craft not Riddle.

Page 107 of the AB: “The Orcs are all eating and drinking,” he hissed, fumbling with the crude lock, with only a dagger as a tool. “I’ll set you free.” Frár’s player Jamie spends a point of Hope for a Body Attribute bonus to his Craft roll to break the lock; Frár releases his brother and the two embrace awkwardly.

Page 149 of the AB (Typical Tasks): "Open lock ---> Craft"

Page 20 of the LM: "... understanding the opening mechanisms that operate an ancient Dwarven gate (roll of Craft)"

... Three different examples of such usage, all Craft driven.

I take your point about Craft but look at the uses of it in your examples:

In the first one, the character breaks the lock. That's sure once way to open a lock - to smash it. It's a bit like the story of Alexander the Great and the Gordian Knot. He was asked to undo a complex knot, which was a test of his Wits. Alexander simply sliced it in two with his sword, a use of his Body attribute.

I would say Craft or Riddle are equally valid. In the first instance you are using brute force to smash the lock - in the second you are using your Wits to understand its mechanism and figure out how to open it.

The third example I would say is just plain wrong, despite being actually from the rules. Understanding is related to Wits, not Body.

Apart from the first one, the other examples I've quoted from the rules never say that you use Body. You could easily combine Wits with Craft, you don't have to stick with the same attribute all the time when a circumstance suggests another more applicable attribute (assuming a player spends Hope).

That's not my interpretation of the rules - my understanding is that the skills below each Attribute are strongly related to that Attribute. Thus, as Craft is in the first column, under Body, you have to use the Body Attribute bonus.

One point I will concede though is that Craft instead of Riddle is perfectly acceptable for picking locks (especially so as it's in the rules!). Unlike other RPGs, there is no distinction between Strength and Dexterity - they are rolled into a single Attribute, Body. Thus, using Craft to pick a lock could represent using brute force to actually force it open (Strength) or using careful manipulation to open it, such as with a lockpick (Dexterity). Craft does also imply a certain familiarity with how things are made, so yes, Craft is probably as good as, if not better than, Riddle.

Sorry, I'm afraid you're incorrect (to limit skills to just one attribute).

From the RAW:

Page 22 of the AB: Skills are organised vertically into columns, grouping the abilities by the Attribute that is considered most influential.

... Note that it doesn’t say solely. So the following is really important:

Page 26 of the AB: When a player fails at a roll, he may spend one point of Hope to receive a bonus equal to the Attribute score that is considered most pertinent for the action.

The RAW therefore actively allows you to combine skills (like Craft) with other attributes (like Wits).

Hope that helps.

No need to be sorry - from the quotes you have provided, it looks pretty clear that there is more flexibility intended in what Attribute bonus applies. Well you learn something new every day, as the saying goes!

One of the beauties of TOR over other RPGs is that it dispenses with a huge encyclopaedic list of skills. There are only 18 actual skills in TOR compared to hundreds in other RPGs, but you can still use them in interesting and intuitive ways to resolve pretty much any task.

As a general rule of thumb though, I would use the Attribute listed above the column the skill is in pretty much most of the time unless it just didn't feel right (which is very subjective, I know).

Things can get missed in rules, so I'm not surprised you didn't pick up on it - I bet others think the same things as you did as its so easy to miss.

I agree 100% with this. This debate has come around before. The skills are organized beautifully by linked Attributes and Skill Groups. I would definitely say the intention is to use Common skills with their linked Attribute as the default, and to use Body as the linked Attribute for Weapon skills. Unless there has been a re-envisioning of this, I don't think the game designers' intent was for Loremasters to teach players that they should always use whatever Attribute they feel makes sense while ignoring the organization of the character sheet and the plain reading of most of the rules (including all the skill descriptions).

Rich H, I think you're picking up on an exception, not the rule.

I concur that letting the players decide which Attribute is most pertinent to a roll is inviting abuse, but I also agree with Rich H that being able to "float" a skill to a different Attribute is a great bit of flexibility in an already flexible system.

Personally, I'd say that the decision as to which Attribute is "most pertinent" should be made by the whole play group, with the Loremaster as the ultimate arbiter, just as for Trait usage. That should prevent any player abuse, while still allowing the game to handle the distinction between (e.g.) a Body-based Craft roll for breaking or picking a lock and a Wits-based Craft roll for figuring out how to open it.

My concern with Burglary is that its auto-success mode potentially makes a whole load of activities not require a roll, never engage with difficulty-mechanics, and never have a tense "do you use Hope or not" moment. Most of the things that Burglary involves (which can validly be judged far more narrowly than booga fears in the OP) are sources of high drama and tension in RPGs and it would be a shame to waive them.
Of course they can be rolled if you want the AP instead of the auto-success, but that's driven by the motive of character advancement and as a personal choice from the player. That still doesn't have the 'emotional charge'...

I am suddenly liberated, Rich H! Such 'recombinations' have been a favourite principle of mine since White Wolf first introduced the idea of choosing the skill rating/stat rating combination to use bsaed on the activity in question.

I didn't think of it as a major drawback for TOR not to look beyond the Attribute listed for a given skill, as it is not a 'crunch' detailed system.
But for players to be able to request a Task to be considered to use a less obvious Attribute is really powerful.
Using Craft to make a sword is clearly most influenced by Body, but it's great to be allowed to treat a Craft Task to determine what you know about the history of forging techniques as influenced by Wits. (Better than forcing the player to turn to Lore in order to bring their Wits to bear. Lore is enough of a cover-everything superskill already!)

Cool.
--Os.

That's right, I am, and was never attempting to state otherwise, considering the context that it was being discussed in... I simply quoted the rules which state: "... grouping the abilities by the Attribute that is considered most influential" and "... that is considered most pertinent for the action", which both acknowledges how skills are grouped under the most applicable attribute and that others can be used if, in a particular instance, they are more applicable. In my opinion that quite clearly lays things out regarding attributes and that something other than, for example, Body can be used for Craft if it's a more logical fit. So, most of the time, that means actions will be aligned to attributes that the skill lies under (ie, 'most influential') but it gives the option to use an attribute different to this (ie, when its 'most pertinent'). Also, the rules state that Craft is used for picking locks on 3 out of 3 occasions. Geekdad didn't know that Wits could be used for Craft, which is why he felt that Riddle was more applicable, so I quoted the rules which stated otherwise so he understood the game's flexibility and that Craft was therefore okay to use (for picking locks) and in 1 of the 3 examples of picking locks you could logically use Wits instead of Body, which addressed the original issue he was having. Picking locks is a tiny subset of Craft, and only 1 in 3 of the examples of such a small subset of the skill would use a different attribute to Body, so it backs up that the rules I quoted are to support exception-based actions rather than the 'rule', and so the idea that this rule being the norm was never being discussed just that it could be used if required.

My thoughts exactly guys, well said.

Traits can overlap, but none is a complete subset of another. Burglary and Elusive both cover, say, hiding in shadows, but Elusive could also for example be used to escape from unfriendly relatives where Burglary could not. Elusive might also cover hiding behind rocks to avoid the sight of a dragon, where Burglary would not. Elusive can be invoked in non-burglarious situations; Burglary cannot.

Traits can be used for automatic successes (not just skipping dramatically unimportant actions as geekdad said), but automatic successes are always ordinary successes: just enough to succeed. You can never get a great or extraordinary success by invoking an automatic success with a trait. So a Burglar might automatically succeed in picking someone's pocket, but he won't be able to get much, and the victim might notice (Perception roll) the theft before the burglar got very far. An extraordinary success on a Stealth roll, on the other hand, would yield the most valuable object possessed by the victim, who remains blissfully unaware of the loss for a good long time. And the thief can claim an advancement point.

My comments were out of line then. I apologize. I agree with the exception and flexibility, it makes sense.

No apology necessary James. Just wanted to make sure I was making my position clear!

Another good example to support the concensus here is building a fire - which generally requires a Craft check.
I think it is reasonable that Body is not necessarily the pertinent Attribute to involve... yes if the Hero is rubbing sticks, operating bellows, etc BUT methinks Wits is justifiable too.

Burglary can be used to get you an automatic regular success. But reading through Tales from Wilderland I see some challenges where a regular success basically doesn't get you anywhere, and you need a Great or Extraordinary success to pull through. And I can think of one situation in particular where TfW just indirectly squashes Burglary flat by saying no roll is possible -- so you can't invoke the trait to succeed on it. (IMHO that one is a bit arbitrary, but it's necessary for the design premise of the adventure in question.)

One of the cool things about TOR's attitude to roleplaying is that for a "task" -- as opposed to a "test" -- it's the player's call what skill they want to try to apply to a situation.
The temptation to try and work this in the player's own favour, and get to use their best skill, is always there. A situation might be crying out for someone to do a rousing Inspire, but Snively Forktongue will always try to do it with his Persuade...
Rather than railroading for the 'right' skill, the TOR response to this is for the LM to say Yes, but to set it a higher TN (which he can choose subjectively, to foil any attempt at abuse). The same principle can apply to the player's choice of non-standard Attribute.

It may be more fraught, as players will only tend to request a non-standard Attribute after the TN has been allocated and the dice have been rolled, and only if it will allow them to succeed where the 'standard' Attribute would fail. So the player will typically be trying to guilt the LM into letting their Hope point spend save them from failing.
On the one hand, if they're spending Hope it might be fair to give them the benefit of the doubt -- especially it's not a Fellowship Focus freebie or a spend they can assume they'll get back from the Fellowship pool.
And on the other hand, if the request is frankly abusive, the LM can say "Yes, but the TN for that approach would have been 18, not 14; would your other Attribute still be high enough to make it?"

Cheers,
--Os.