Hiyas!

Can the Elvish "power" The Speakers affect all natural creatures like Men, Elves, Dwarves? What about Orcs, Trolls, Ents, Maias, etc.? Or can this power only affect flora, minerals & fauna (animals... but what about corrupted animals, like Wargs & "dire wolves")?


Thanks!
Ñ

As I see this virtue, it doesn't cover telepathy. It's more listening to the rhythm of the natural world around the character. Things that the character would be able to do would be calming a battle-weary horse (like Aragorn does with Brego in the film of the Two Towers), or listening to the voices of the trees in Fangorn forest to determine that they are disturbed by your presence.

I see this as a means of providing communication with creatures and nature that cannot otherwise be engaged in conversation. So flora, fauna and minerals only. Sentient creatures, such as Men, Orcs, Maia, Trolls, etc are able to communicate normally for their kind, which is a function of Language.

I also see this ability limited by:
1) Intelligence: While I'm not suggesting to determine smart and stupid animals, I do think that engaging a deer in a philosophical debate regarding the nature of the cosmos unlikely to get a coherent answer.
2) Communication Speed: Kind of like talking to Ents in their native language. The creature speaks in it's own manner and timing, thus getting an answer might require an investment of time that character's don't have.

So if you questioned a mouse in the palm of your hand, you would probably get a frightened, one-word answer, cried out as it jetted for cover. After all, mice are timid creatures and you're revealing it to predators.

Asking a pebble might get a very simple and slow answers as it is only a small part of a greater whole. A boulder might give more complete answers, but take a bit longer than normal to respond. Questioning a mountain would probably get you an immediate answer... that would include some minor seismic shaking, lots of harmonic vibration and the possibility of avalanches, mud/rock slides, etc. After all, it's responding in the language of the earth, not human communication.

Wolves are covered by this skill and I would imagine Wargs are as well, but not a Hound of Sauron. However these are evil creatures in Middle-earth so neither would be willing to communicate politely with any of the Free People. So they might understand, but they would simply ignore you. (Rather like talking to the average house cat.)

Those are my off the cuff thoughts as I had not previously considered this virtue in detail. Hope it is of some help.

Thanks for the input!


Ñ

Been considering this and the telepathic communication seen in the films with Galadriel and Elrond could be a function of the Elven rings rather than an Elvish trait. I can't remember without rereading (again) whether this communication is implied in the books. I know Galadriel can see in to men's hearts and read their thoughts/souls, but this could be a really high Insight instead of a supernatural power. She has, after all, been around for a while. The film put it the way it did for dramatic and visual purposes.

I think that was just film shorthand/easier to explain things with dialog than without type affair.

Valarian,
Somewhere in these topics is a thread that discusses this situation indirectly, since it was not the primary concern of the topic. I believe it started as an outgrowth of a story idea.

Yes, anyone who wears a Lesser or Greater Ring of Power would be linked to the mind of the wearer of the One Ring. It was a function of that ring to "find them" and "bind them" (per the poem). Also, Tolkien mentions that having crafted the Elven Rings, Celembrimbor hears Sauron cast the final spell which completes it's mastery over all of the other Rings of Power, despite being several hundred miles away (Ost-in-Edhil vs Mount Doom).

The ability to enter another Ring-Wearers mind (as opposed to just being subjected to Sauron's will) is a bit vague, but a side-effect of wearing any Ring. However their is some belief that its more of a potential and requires intrinsic ability in the wearer in order to use it on other Wearers. So a Wearer could hear Sauron and Sauron could read them, but Frodo - untrained - cannot use this function of the Ring. It does however open him up to Galadriel's ability.

Galadriel is believed to allude to this as she says something about "knowing his [Sauron's] mind / plans". Apparently she is much more subtle in brushing another's mind without notice. Although it is at a time when Sauron does not have possession of his Ring, so this would open him up to other Wearers in general. But you would still have to overcome his intrinsic capabilities.

BTW, this is to some extent the reason that any Ring of Power is an awkward plot device for an adventure. While Sauron has the Ruling Ring he can sense all other Wearers, their , their thoughts and apply temptation to them (heck he has some limited ability to do this without the Ruling Ring). Not to mention that Sauron is supposed to have gathered almost all of the Lesser and Greater Rings up when he attacks Eregion. (He fails to acquire only 1 Dwarven and 3 Elven - at least of the Greater Rings. But he is said to gather up the (unnumbered) Lesser as well.)

The only potential way around this might be the creation of another tier of Rings. Something like the Marred, Lesser and Greater. But understand doing so decreases the number of Lesser Rings created, and at all times the Marred Rings would be subject to any Lesser Ring rules (in forthcoming TOR products, etc) with the possible exception of Wraith & Preservation related issues (see below). So, as a Ring based on the crafting lore provided by Sauron, any such Ring is subject to the Ruling Ring in all ways.

The Marred Rings of Power would be something like the Spider Ring mentioned recently in another topic. It would be a very limited scope ring, most likely with negative functionality (ie, cursed) or negative impact (ie, something like Genie wishes which are fulfilled in the worst manner possible). Perhaps they automatically instill some kind of growing Dependency on the Wearer.

The Marred Rings might also lack some of the "normal" abilities of Rings of Power. So I doubt they would have any ability for preservation. They would also lack the ability to make the wearer invisible and thus cannot allow the user to see into the spirit (wraith) realm. This lack might be a major reason why Sauron hasn't bothered with the Marred Rings - too much energy expended to barely be able to affect the wearer. Although this would obviously be a good thing - less chance to become a Wraith by wearing a Marred Ring.

Language comprehension might still be available as this is an ability that many Elves would know through The Speakers virtue.

There is a scene in the books where Elrond and Galadriel are having a telepathic conversation. However they did this on the voyage back from Minas Tirith. The One Ring was already destroyed, so their own rings wouldn't be granting any kind of powers.

The mentioned mental communication takes place on the way back to the Shire. Elrond, Celeborn, Gandalf and Elrond sit in Eregion and have an intense mental communication:

This is what Tolkien describes as ósanwe in his essay Ósanwe-kenta - 'Enquiry into the Communication of Thought', published in Vinyar Tengwar, Issue 39 from July 1998. This periodical is the journal of the The Elvish Linguistic Fellowship.
In this essay Tolkien discusses the "mental communication" as the most basic form of innate "magic", e.g. the mind of an individual being able to interact beyond the bounds of his own physical body. Tolkien describes this a faculty of all physical beings, but curbs this by stating that Man's control of the mind over the body is very weak compared to Elves or even Ainur, that even this simple "telepathy" is rarely encountered among the Secondborn, but very normal for Elves. He also discusses the parameters that affect the ability of the ósanwe, making this a highly insightful piece of work describing part of the inner metaphysics of Middle-earth. It also serves as a great resource to extrapolate more advanced powers (e.g. affecting the physical world) based on this "mind-powers".

Cheers
Tolwen

In the book this isn't a power of the Three—Celeborn is able to do it too. It's an ability granted by being tens of thousands of years old. You pick up a few tricks after a while.

I don't have a problem with the way it was depicted in the films. In the book, Galadriel was able to sense Gandalf from afar, until he fell in Moria. Gandalf the White searches with his mind for Frodo. Sauron searches with his mind for the Ring. Will is one of the two most powerful forces of magic (the other being Art).