Anyone have any thoughts on when Radagast might have settled at Rhosgobel?

Thinking of Saruman's occupation of Orthanc, a tower already built that he made his own. Its hard to imagine Radagst "building" his own residence so much as taking up residence in something already there or built for him by people living in the area.

Regards,
E

Perhaps an ancient Elf dwelling or a hall of some long for Northmen forgotten king.

I don't know when...

But I always thought he was -- or at some point became -- a virtual hermit who scarcely interacted with the Free Peoples. I pictured him living in a shack in the forest!
But I should have dropped that on learning that the name of Rhosgobel translates as "Brown Hay", describing a (defensively-)hedged enclosure, which suggests a property larger than a shack. (I think his involvement with the affairs of the Woodmen in TOR is a pragmatic one for gaming purposes, even if I still have some reservations...)

But if Rhosgobel's defining feature is its hedge or "hay", that's not a very permanent structure. I'd differ from you, Eluadin, and guess that the nature-loving -- "Yavannildo"? -- Radagast established it himself, rather than adopting a pre-existing site.
(The contrast with Saruman's eventual choice of residence is pleasing, and would serve to emphasise the difference between them -- and the natures of their respective 'falls', if you will.)

Incidentally, in checking on this stuff, I found this webpage: Rhosgobel – Home of Radagast the Brown, which gives a good analysis of all that's known about it. I'm particularly intrigued by the idea that Radagast ceased living at Rhosgobel at some point within the timeframe TOR is using... I'm excited to 'find out' how and why! ;-)

Cheers!
--Os.

After combing the sources, and a number of secondary essays including the one you recommended, this is my tale so far. (While referencing numerous sources within the Tolien corpus, this is first and foremost a creative re-imagining meant for my TOR campaign. Consider this a disclaimer of sorts.) Rhosgobel was founded by Men. By the time the Sindarin princes arrived from the west in the Second Age, the community of Men living within the Brown Hedge (or Brun-hegge as they may have called it by the Second Age) were well established in the South-western eaves of the great Greenwood. In the Elves' dealings with the Men of the southern woods, they always referred to this settlement in their language. In time, as the memory of Men faded with the passing of one generation after another, Brown Hedge's original name was lost. But, the Elvish named endured - Rhosgobel. At the beginning of the Third Age with the Disaster at the Gladden Fields (as recounted in the Unfinished Tales), the Woodmen that brought news swiftly to Thranduil were the Woodmen of Rhosgobel; though, this memory is long lost to the Woodmen, some of the Elves have not forgotten. Rhosgobel, then, lies further back in time than even Woodmen-town on the Dusken River.

Radagast chose Rhosgobel becasue of its proximity to Dol Guldur; and, after his wanderings, this would become the seat for his work in raising the Free People of the North against the devastation wrought by the Shadow. But, no less important to the Brown Wizard numbered among the people of Yavanna, Mirkwood of all the realms of green-living things, was the most threatened and the most needful. Bird and beast, root and leaf here as nowhere else were under assault as the corrupting reeks from Dol Guldur polluted the once great Green-wood giving brith to blight and rot that still endured though the Shadow had fled into the east. So it was during the Watchful Peace that Radagast took up residence within Rhosgobel though set apart from the native Woodmen. And, during the Watchful peace, Radagast began in earnest his work to redress the hurts of the land, and embolden Mirkwood's Elves and Men to push back the Shadow that loosed evil upon evil into the once great Wood.

My next post will speak specifically to Radagast and elaborate on his history in relation to Rhosgobel. Also, I plan on adding another post to the "Woodmen of Mirkwood" topic to trace the ancestry and racial heritage of the Woodmen to a First Age proto-Haladin emigrant population from the White Mountains. That, by the second Age, has mingled with the the Second House of the Edain and given birth to the ancestors of the Woodmen of Mirkwood of the Third Age.

Regards,
E

While I find the whole write-up very good, I think it is unlikely that a Mannish town will forget it's name and then adopt an Elvish one. Additional reasoning is necessary to explain the name and re-enforce why the change is acceptable. This could have major implications to your campaign's Woodman culture. Providing impetus for holidays, cultural likes and dis-likes, changes in art motifs, etc.

What I did not get from the short intro, is whether Rhosgobel is meant to be abandoned when Radagast takes over or still inhabited by Men.

Thanks
Tolwen

Tolwen, I will get to that in a moment. When I turn to my own imaginative construction using the following sources.


Rhosgobel, the name originates in the Elvish language; and, most likely, derived from a Sindarin root for 'brown' (HoMe, The Treason of Isengard). That is, the name carried by the place in the Third Age is an Elvish name. This begs the question how does this place come to be known by an Elvish name? The name translates to 'brown hedge' where the hedge implies a protected community (Ibid). This might be a good place to mention there is a precedent in Ephel Brandir upon Amon Obel (Silmarillion; and, in the HoMe, The War of the Jewels, Tolkien connects this to his etymology for Rhosgobel). Ephel Brandir, a community of Men known under an Elvish name was also a dwelling of a little know Wood-folk, the People of Haleth, or the Haladin. Even though the Haladin had their own language, their interactions with the other Atani and the Eldar of Beleriand led to this particular home being known both within the community and without by an Elvish name. [I presume the Elvish name is a rendering in Sindarin for what the Haladin themselves might have once named the place--the fenced height.]

Returning to the question of Rhosgobel's naming, we have a Woodmen dwelling in TOR with a Sindarin name. Did Radagast provide such a name? The common root shared by the Haladin site and Rhosgobel ('fence' or 'hedge') applies to an enclosed community as opposed to an isolated homestead. If Radagast were to name a place for his homestead, I believe he would have chosen a more appropriate suffix. And, there is no precedent for a Wizard naming a place; not even Saruman ventures to rename Orthanc. Could the Elves of Greenwood or later Mirkwood provided the name? And, if so, did they inhabit the community that is implied in the suffix -(g)obel?

Given its Sindarin roots, an Elvish appellation would have required a Second Age setting when Sindarin princes left behind the rule of Gil-Galad and settled east beyond the Misty Mountains. Moreover, a hedge enclosed community has no precedent in Elvish settlement patterns; but, it does have a precedent in Mannish settlement patterns as noted in the Silmarillion example. Another important consideration is the implication of Rhosgobel's in the southern woods of Mirkwood. After the first darkening of Greenwood, the Elves of Greenwood-now-Mirkwood retreated north before the advancing Shadow. Therefore, Rhosgobel's name would need to be rendered prior to the second millenium of the Third Age. [This assumes that sustained inter-cultural exchange is necessary for one ethnic group's name to be applied and "stick" to another ethnic group's home. Transient inter-cultural relations would not be enough.] We have a reference to Woodmen abiding in the area where Rhosgobel is located (UT, The Disaster of the Gladden Fields). Additionally, these Woodmen at the beginning of the Third Age were able to send swift runners directly to Thranduil. The implication here must not be trivialized. These Woodmen had close ties to the Elven-king who swiftly responded. An Elven-king who recently lost a father as well as a great number of his people; and, yet, he still responded. There is a Woodmen-Elvish relationship in place of depth and breadth to which Tolkien only alludes.

Up until now, I have mostly interpreted the information provided by the sources. In my next post, I will set out my narrative that utilizes these elements.

Regards,
E

There is also the question of who calls it Rhosgobel.

Consider Rohan. This is the Sindarin name for that country, meaning "horse-land." It is called Rohan by Gondorians and Elves. The Rohirrim (S. "horse-lord people") themselves have their own name for it, translated for us into English as Riddermark, or "rider-marches," and they call themselves the Eorlingas ("people of Eorl").

Just because the stories commonly use one name for a place doesn't mean the people who live there use that name.

Stormcrow, good point. What we have in the sources: Gandalf uses the place-name Rhosgobel. The hobbit-centric narrator uses the place-name Rhosgobel. Tolkien uses the place-name Rhosgobel when he is writing outside the role of historian uncovering Middle-earth's mythic history, but as an author reflecting on his work. (This last is most notable when you read his letters.)

In the sources, we never hear Woodmen speak with their own unique voice.

So what you propose is a good point, but it's validity would rest on imaginative construction. That's worth noting as well. Generally speaking, there is more in the sources to support the adoption of an Elvish name by a Mannish culture. However, you provide a specific example of a close ethnic group that histories remember by an Elvish name, but the people themselves use their own tongue with its unique place- and people-names for their culture and dwellings. Would half a millenium versus three millenium make a difference? Consider this in light of the shortness of human life and the instability in human memory within Middle-earth.

Good point, what do we make of it...?

Regards,
E

This piece addresses Radagast's arrival at Rhosgobel. This begins my imaginative construction that puts the pieces dealing with Rhosgobel from the prior post into a narrative of sorts.

Sometime in the First Age, Men settled at the site that would come to be known as Rhosgobel. Who they were, that question I will take up again in the topic "Woodmen of Mirkwood." But, for now, I will call them a Woodland-folk and extend from the brief note given in the UT, The Disaster at Gladden Fields, that they were not a people who waged open war. But, being familiar with living and fighting amidst the trees of the great Green-wood, stealth and ambush was more their purview. Before the end of the First Age, this Woodland-folk forged ties with the Dark Elves wandering Green-wood's twilit paths. With the arrival of Sinda princes and the establishment of an Elf-realm in Green-wood, dealings between the Woodland-folk and the Elves of Green-wood took on a certain shape and structure. The meeting of the two folks in the southern woods began to normalize with a regular meeting site visited over and over again by the Elven-king's messengers and emissaries. In time, this place became known in the Elvish tongue as Rhosgobel. With the passing of centuries and the short-lived memory Man embodies, Rhosgobel became the use-name of this Mannish settlement.

The Second Age passes into a third, though the Mannish settlements in the southern woods of Green-wood shift and move like the play of light through the forest canopy, one settlement endured continuously - Rhosgobel. That is, until the end of the first millenium of the Third Age. A Shadow entered the southernmost woods, and a darkness crept into the hearts and minds of the Elves wandering those woods. In time, the Elven-king withdrew his people north. And, within a single generation of Man, the Free People dwelling in the southern woods were immersed in war. Maybe not outright battle, but it was war nonetheless for a great malice had come to Green-wood darkening the once dappled sunlight with shadows cast by no cloud or bird. Within a single generation of Man, the great Green-wood had become Mirkwood. Soon, the hardy Woodmen could no longer hold to the lands they normally inhabited in the southern woods. And, like the
Elves a generation ago, they began to withdraw, shrinking back from the spreading Shadow. Not without resistance and great loss, but even Rhosgobel was abandoned as a permanent dwelling of the Woodmen. It became a border post of sorts marking a frontier with no formal boundaries.

And, so one millenium passes into another and change once again came to Mirkwood on the heels of an old man cloaked in grey and robed in ash. Then, the Watchful Peace began and another stranger came to the Southern Eaves of Mirkwood. Robed in brown, this wanderer was seeking a place to settle for a time. It seems he had work to do amidst Mirkwood's blight. So, the Woodmen brought him to Rhosgobel where he took up residence. After building the kindly old-man a hermitage, the Woodmen themselves began to return with their families to settle in their ancient home. Though centuries of abandonment all but wiped out the memory of Rhosgobel's place in their history, the Woodmen made of it one of their Clan-haldan. Now, the Woodmen dwelling in Rhosgobel took up Radagast's work assisting in small ways with his work of turning back the tide of darkness now that the Shadow had fled.

Radagst chose Rhosgobel becasue of its proximity to Dol Guldur; and, after his wanderings, this would become the seat for his work in raising the Free People of the North against the devastation wrought by the Shadow. But, no less important to the Brown Wizard numbered among the people of Yavanna, Mirkwood of all the realms of green-living things, was the most threatened and the most needful. Bird and beast, root and leaf here as nowhere else were under assault as the corrupting reeks from Dol Guldur polluted the once great Green-wood giving brith to blight and rot that still endured though the Shadow had fled into the east. So it was during the Watchful Peace that Radagast took up residence within Rhosgobel though set apart from the native Woodmen. And, during the Watchful peace, Radagast began in earnest his work to redress the hurts of the land, and embolden Mirkwood's Elves and Men to push back the Shadow that loosed evil upon evil into the once great Wood.

Regards,
E

When speaking to Elves and emissaries of important peoples at the Council of Elrond. Gandalf is cosmopolitan, and uses language appropriate to the people he's dealing with. Aragorn is the same way: notice how his speech changes between talking to hobbits and talking to the Rohirrim.

Quite right. Which means there's no point worrying about whether the Woodmen would call Rhosgobel by that name--we don't know and can't know. One must simply accept that when one puts the name "Rhosgobel" into a Woodman's mouth, one means "Rhosgobel, or whatever a Woodman would call it."

I completely agree with you, in the abstract. But, when assuming the concrete roll of LM and writing a campaign, when I put "Rhosgobel" into the mouth of a Woodman that's precisely what he intends to say. As the author, I fully acknowledge that it could be "Rhosgobel" or some other name either of my own invention or constructed from Old English roots. However, it doesn't make sense in the play of the game to introduce that like some footnote for the players to stop and take not of. Afterwards maybe, or better yet before if necessary; but, that's simply a statement of personal approach on my part and nothing more.

In this sense, I strongly agree with the notion that an author writing something for TOR or any other Middle-earth game should be conscious of the ground on which he or she stands: Is it their own imagination or is it Tolkien, or some collaboration of the two...

With this in mind, I've tried to identify what the sources say and what I've woven from these sources; when I'm writing specifically for my campaign and when I'm reflecting on Tolkien per se.

Hopefully, this helps to unmuddle my often muddled posts.

Regards,
E

I've spent some time pondering the same thing, Radagast's involvement in Woodmen society. More so, when I think about his role in providing the quotes for "What the Kings Says..."

While not having an answer for TOR per se, I've had to come up with a coherent explanation for my campaign. (Well, maybe I didn't have to, but the challenge... )

How does Radagast fit into this little story of mine and provide a coherent logic for the place he occupies in TOR? First, let me mention a few sources that I found important to my answer.

The obvious source: In The Unfinished Tales, Tolkien tells us that Saruman fell, and in his fall failed in his mission. But, Tolkien describes Radagast as forsaking his mission. Being that Tolkien was a great lover of words, it is important to account for Tolkien's choice of two different words to describe Saruman and Radagast: A fall versus forsaking. Also, in another essay, Tolkien tells as that Yavanna asked that Radagast (Aiwendil) accompany Saruman (Curunir). That, in this regard, Radagast was not numbered among the three called for by Manwe as emissaries from the West to contest the resurgent Shadow.

The not so obvious source for answering this question: Letter 156. In this letter, Tolkien tells us that ALL the Istari failed in their mission strictly speaking - even Gandalf. In so far as the Istari were charged to stand against the Shadow indirectly. There methods were to be counsel and advice, inspiration and succor, emboldening the Free People's in the struggle to stand against the Enemy-returned. Direct intervention was forbidden; or, better said, if direct intervention was required, then the Istari had failed. Gandalf, so Tolkien tells us, directly intervened in Moria when facing the Balrog. And, this was a sign of his failure strictly speaking. However, his act of sacrifice redeemed his failure; and, in fact, transformed it and him into something greater.

Now to the story...

Radagast, like the other Wizards upon their arrival, set out across Middle-earth to discern the hearts of Elves and Men. Soon, though, Radagast chose to settle in Mirkwood at Rhosgobel because of its proximity to Dol Guldur. And, after his wanderings, this became the seat for his work to raise the Free People of the North against the devastation wrought by the Shadow. But, no less important to the Brown Wizard numbered among the people of Yavanna, Mirkwood of all the realms of green-living things, was the most threatened and the most needful. Bird and beast, root and leaf here as nowhere else were under assault as the corrupting reeks from Dol Guldur polluted the once great Green-wood giving brith to blight and rot that still endured though the Shadow had fled into the east. So it was during the Watchful Peace that Radagast took up residence within Rhosgobel. And, during the Watchful peace, Radagast began in earnest his work to redress the hurts of the land, and embolden Mirkwood's Elves and Men to push back the Shadow that loosed evil upon evil into the once great Wood.

Yet, impatience, the temptation that haunts every Wizard, began to work upon Radagast. Impatience to heal the hurts of Mirkwood, impatience to see an end to the senseless destruction wrought by the Shadow on all things living, he felt all too keenly the need. In time and because of this need, Radagast began to involve himself more directly in the struggles of the North. Mainly among the Woodmen of Mirkwood, first as a counselor and guide, and later more intimately involved in the life of the Woodmen. Soon, Radagast, though set apart in his hermitage at Rhosgobel, became a real part of Woodmen society. In this way, the line between inspiration and direct intervention blurred. This is the time and place that TOR captures Radagast in his involvement in Woodmen society as a mentor as well as a significant figure to provide a voice to "What the King says..."

Radagast's concern for the green living-things, bird and beast soon became dominant, the very things the Woodmen in their resistance to the spread of the Shadow were protecting. How long did it take for the purpose confirmed upon him as an emissary of the Valar to become something other? The struggle against the Shadow was soon supplanted by the struggle to preserve and heal the hurts of the Wood. What was once a consequence of the struggle against the Shadow now became the reason for the struggle. Radagast had forsaken the mission charged upon his order.

This finishes my line of thinking on this topic. For all those who commented, your input was greatly appreciated. It helped improve the backstory of my campaign and provided depth without clouding the mere.

Regards,
E

Very well thought out Eluadin. I like your take on 'forsaken'. I didn't know where you were going at first and thought that corruption was on your agenda. I'm glad that it wasn't and think your idea is very plausible.

Yes, really good lore-work there, Eluadin, both for scholarly rigour and insightful interpolation!

I'm particularly impressed with the idea of Radagast's concern being to do whatever he can to resist the corrupting influences of the Shadow out of Dol Guldur upon the green and living things of Nature. As originally a 'Yavannildo' maia this makes so much sense I can't believe I've never heard it stated that way till now!
But the only reason I've ever picked up before for Radagast making his home at Rhosgobel was to 'spy' or keep watch on Dol Guldur. Opposing or mitigating the effect of the Shadow is a far more favourable interpretation, but not without its complexities...

I'm thinking Radagast must have danced a narrow line with the Necromancer, not being so powerful that Sauron would fear to attack and neutralise him if his actions proved to be enough of a thorn in his side. So either Radagast's methods must have been subtle enough that Sauron didn't recognise what he was doing and put a stop to him, or he must have played on Sauron's reluctance to show his hand, and restricted himself to doing as much as he could without eliciting that sort of response.

His mission being to encourage the Free Peoples (especially Men, hence the Istari's choice of fanar as elderly bearded men) to oppose the forces of Darkness, I always saw his 'fall' as being to leave Men and elves to their own devices while he just worried about the little birdies...
Not knowing when Tolkien deemed him to have 'fallen' or forsaken his mission, I cautiously approve of TOR's interpretation making Rhosgobel a larger settlement and potential Sanctuary, and Radagast a handy potential patron for the Player-Heroes. But since he's clearly still helping and advising the Woodmen in TA 2946, it rather begins to look like he's going to stop doing so somewhere between now and TA 3019. I predict a campaign arc coming up ahead!

Cheers,
--Os.

Thanks for the kind words!

My next task is to integrate all of these posts and suggestions into a coherent campaign background supplement. I think there is a campaign arc here that ties Radagast and the Woodmen's fading from The LotR narrative with the Darkening of Mirkwood. But we'll have to see!

Regards,
E

I am hoping to see your "final" version, Eluadin ... or, at least, the latest and greatest version ... sooner rather than later I'm REALLY hoping!

In one of my two TOR campaigns, the heroes are presently at Rhosgobel and have visited Radagast at the behest of King Dain. They want him to translate and/or decipher a document for them and Radagast distractedly claimed to have many other things to do. The party's Hobbit suggested that they could do some of those things for him in order to free up some of his time. So, I have to come up with some tasks for them to accomplish. I have several ideas, but am interested in what all YOU might include in your "tome."

Greetings,

After a good deal of work, and good deal more work to come, I have captured some of my campaign material in this peliminary document. it crystallizes a good deal of my musings on the Woodmen and, for me, those areas that interest me within Wilderland. For as long as it has been in progress, sadly far too little has been completed. At this point, with my wee lass and lad taking up more time, one is starting to walk and the other climbing the bookcases, the hours become fewer and fewer, and crafting the campaign to my satisfaction seems less likely these days.

In concept and play, but not written out yet, the campaign encompasses ten adventures that lead up to the Darkening of Mirkwood. That said, revisions will follow as here and there I add more material. And, there is a great deal of material still to add! The link to the draft follows:

http://db.tt/Cme6G1Kd

Regardless, finished or unfinished, the present moment seemed as good as any to put it out there for comment and critique. Mostly backstory and campaign setting material, none of the adventures are filled in yet. But, it might provide some interesting material for others. And, as always, the forums comments provides good millage despite Sharkey's best (or is it worst) efforts!

Regards,
E

Eluadin

The Woodmen were IMO (based on Tolkien's writings) descendants of the original Northmen, and thus they are also related both to the Men of Rhovanion (and thus the Rohirrim) and also the Bardings - you need to consider this, plus also there may be links to the 'Anduin Hobbits' - see the thread on this dicussion

Robin S.

Robin,

When I read the work published by Christopher Tolkien, John Rateliff, and Humphrey Carpenter, and the secondary scholarship on these commentators, the statement Tolkien makes in the Appendices to The LotR becomes less unambiguously that the Woodmen are culturally part of the Northmen.

I arrived at this notion slowly; and it developed over time. To understand the process by which this occurred, it began while attempting to understand Tolkien's own understanding of cultural identity. I was deep into "Beowulf: The Monsters and the Critics" and "On Fairy-Stories" piecing together a coherent picture of Tolkien's own belief as to how cultural identity and heritage are shaped and fashioned. In short, I discovered that for Tolkien Myth and Language are the foundation for cultural identity and its heritage. When I say Myth, Tolkien is specifically pointing to the work of such scholars as Loennrot, the brothers Grimm, and Sturluson to name a few, and Myth's function in society (as believed by luminaries like Tolkien in the 18th and 19th centuries). When Tolkien spoke of Language here he was referring to linguistic roots found as textual artifacts. If you can see from this genesis, I started not with the intention to develop a Woodmen cultural background. But, in fact, I was working on something else entirely (the co-ordination of Language-Myth-Conscusness in Tolkien's anthropology). And, as I was working on this other project, I began assembling pieces of a puzzle whose picture complicated and, ultimately, altered my understanding of the texture and history of the Northmen. As this advanced alongside my other work, I thought would this not be something interesting to playout in the mythical landscape of roleplaying. And, what better landscape then TOR!

The fulcrum that all this hinged (and continues to hinge upon for this campaign I'm writing) is that the Folk of Haleth (the Woodmen of Brethil) and the Woodmen of Mirkwood are mythically the same culture. The work of Tolkien scholar-enthusiasts like Flieger, Hammond, and Noad among others develop this in great detail, far better than I could in a forum post. But, what is clear when you look at all this material: While Tolkien was working on the "Hobbit sequel" and drawing it into the Legendarium he pulled on figures and types from one to populate another. This is nothing new, and fairly common knowledge. Specifically, though, as Tolkien was writing about the Woodmen in The Hobbit and The LotR, he was mythically imagining the Folk of Haleth. Another instance of pulling his grander Myth into publican without publishing the Myth as it was originally intended.

Usually, when this happened in his writings, Tolkien eventually became aware and began re-imagining the primary Myth, his Legendarium to account for the appropriation by the published works of his mythic-material. So, I began looking for the advent of Tolkien's re-imagining. And, it happens in his essay "On Dwarves and Men" in The HoMe. There he introduces an inconsistent element into the Myth: the language of the Second House of the Edain was spoken in Wilderland during the Second Age. The period with which that particular essay takes great interest. Then, I needed to trace that out, etc., etc.

After illuminating a bit on my method for arriving at this particular backstory, let me say I don't necessarily see it as the "right" one or the most authoritative. Just another of many possible ways to re-construct some of the murkier background material to the Third Age. I think it is just as valid to say the Woodmen are descended from Northmen, and Northmen come from the Third House of the Edain. For, indeed Tolkien does state that explicitly. And, in fact, I work with this explicit statement. Also, though, I wanted to work with the fact that the Woodmen of Mirkwood are mythically the same as the Folk of Haleth, the Second House of the Edain. And, I wanted to work with the fact that the language of the Second House of the Edain was spoken in Wilderland during the Second Age.

The citations and references are quite extensive; a good bit of which is scattered throughout my posts on this forum.

Well, enough of my approach and aimless wanderings, did you find the story embedded in the campaign engaging?

Regards,
E

I'm sure I read somewhere that the Folk of Haleth were diminutive (compared to other races of men) and I've thought whether the Folk of Haleth became the Hobbits.
I've been trying to find the references for the Anduin Hobbits thread. I think somewhere in the Silmarillian.

Valarian,

It's an interesting notion circulating that connects the Folk of Haleth with Hobbits. Here is a reference from The Silmarillion that bears on this idea: "In the days before the Dagor Bragollach those two houses of the Edain were joined at a great feast, when Galdor and Gloredhel were wedded to Hareth and Haldir the children of Halmir lord of the Haladin." And, earlier in the same tale Tolkien tells of a time when "Hurin and Huor, the sons of Galdor of Dor Lomin, were dwelling with the Haladin, for they were akin." That is to say, in Tuor and Turin, the House of Hador (the Third House) and the House of Haladin (the Folk of Haleth, the Second House) joined their bloodlines through marriage.

The Folk of Haleth, the Haladin, were physically alike with the house of Beor except in stature. If we recall that in the youth of Men, the Younger Children of Iluvatar were to quote The Silmarillion, "In those days, Elves and Men were of like stature and strength of body, but the Elves had greater wisdom, and skill, and beauty... ." So when Tolkien describes the lesser stature of the Second House of the Edain, the Haladin called in later days the Folk of Haleth, this is in reference to the comparison made from the previously quoted text that Men in their youth [the First Age] were of a similar stature to Elves. Therefore, the Haladin were "lesser" in relation to the First and Third Houses who themselves were more the stature of the Elves, both Noldor and Sindar.

And, there other other interesting textual sources that explicitly do not associate Hobbits with the Folk of Haleth. Such as, in The HoMe we find the Folk of Haleth described as the forebears of the Dunlendings and Men of the White Mountains.

Regards,
E

Very well written Eluadin, a joy to read

Could you point me to the passage where this (the "haladic" tongue spoken in 2A Rhovanion) is mentioned?

I could only find a reference in context of the time when hobbits where still residing in numbers in the anduin vales that the (normal) men living there were of "bëorian" and/or "hadorian" stock, which would favor the "Northman theory" for the Woodmen's origin.

Cheers
Tolwen

Tolwen,

Thank you for the comments and the interest in the sources. The crux lies in The HoMe XII, "Of Dwarves and Men" under one of Tolkien's notes. This note mentions that the East Gate of Moria bore "Runic inscriptions in several tongues: spells of prohibition and exclusion in Khuzdul, and commands that all should depart who had not the leave of the Lord of Moria written in Quenya, Sindarin, the Common Speech, the languages of Rohan and of Dale and Dunland."

The interesting thing about this inscription unfolds when we realize that Rohan and Dunland as place names, with peoples bearing a derivation of the place name - Rohirrim and Dunlendings - only existed centuries after the East Gate was destroyed in the Orc wars.

Given the anachronism of Tolkien's usage of Rohan and Dunland, and it was added after the completion of the text, and it was added temporally during the same period he was working on revisions and expansions to appendices in The LotR, I began with the assumption that these terms were fresh in his thoughts and readily at hand during the drafting of this essay. That, by chance and common practice in Tolkien's overlapping thoughts, they are signs. Signs for three distinct speeches that arose clearly at this time and referred to by Tolkien as "Hadorian" and as "Beorian" and as "Halethian". A leap none too great took me to assume that the reference to "Rohan and of Dale and of Dunland" were actually linguistic references: Hadorian and Beorian and Halethian. Work through the chronology, the Longbeards did not learn the speech of Men until the Second Age, and, not until the middle of the Second Age was the alliance of Dwarves and Men sundered. The tone of the inscriptions tends towards the period after the sundering of the alliance and the ascendency of the Numenorieans in driving Sauron out of Eriador. In this line of thought, I assume Common Speech is also an anachronistic referral to Adunaic. This places the earliest hypothetical point for these runic inscriptions as the later half of the second millennium of the Second Age. There are different arguments for the latest hypothetical time for the inscriptions depending on whether one assumes the inscriptions date from a period of strength or decline. Of course, I assumed the earliest hypothetical point for the existence of the inscriptions.

My notes are still in the process of being cross-checked, so this is a brief summation of sorts of my thoughts beginning with the passage in question.

Best regards,
E

The Dunlendings were settled at one point around the Gap of Rohan and the terminus of the southern Misty Mountains (Fangorn Forest to say... the southern border of Hollin - ish) and into the open lands beyond (Enedwaith, Calenardhon), respectively. I think they remained in the area until pushed south by the migration of the Éothéod and the Rohirrim pushed them westward once granted title to what would become Rohan. Which is the source of the Dunlendings animosity to the Rohirrim.

So this would place the Dunlendings within a relatively short distance of either gate. Thus making sense that their was a "No Trespassing" sign written in their own language.

Hi Eluadin,

Ah, now I see what you mean. I always had understood it in the wider sense to address all the people with whom the Longbeards had contacts with, i.e. the North ("dalish" tongue), the Anduin Vales ("Rohirric" tongue) and South ("dunlendish") tongue. Please note that all of the labels mentioned here (dalish, rohirric, dunlendish) are anachronistic in that context (e.g. post-TA 1981) - and not only the dunlendish or rohirric one.

In case you are not aware of it (though I doubt it )you may check with Chris Seeman's article Oathbreakers and Dunlendings in Other Hands, Issue 24 from 1999 which may be downloaded at the Other Minds website (p. 15 is the most important in this context). Here he speculates that that the linguistic references relate to exactly these geographic terms as mentioned above. At least it is not hard to imagine the - commercial - contacts with all all these people for the Longbeards. As Garn already noted the - later - Dunland (or Enedwaith) is not that far away from Moria to make trade unlikely (quite the contrary). And - mentioned by Garn as well - in earlier times in the Second Age the "haladic" poeople were settled even further north in later Calenardhon. And such contacts are all the more likely since the Dwarves were always dependent on other people for the production and delivery of foodstuffs. Having some diversity here (apart from the nearby Anduin Vales) as a source of food wouldn't be bad at all.

Chris connects the three places with the three dialects/tongues used by the Edain: bëoric, hadorian and haladic tongues, rather the closer geographic terms they are normally associated with.

At least that's what I read from this quote (for the East Gate) by now. It does not necessitate a different geographical distribution of mannish groups from what Tolkien alludes to in other parts of the legendarium, e.g. Wilderland/Rhovanion for bëoric/hadorian people and later Gondor/southern to mid-Eriador for "haladic" relatives without any geographic or actual noteworthy mixing between them. Even in Beleriand the Haladin are a people conspiciously apart from the other two houses (who shared close relations even before entering Beleriand).

EDIT:
In context with another passage from Of Men and Dwarves this interpretation gets even more momentum:

Now if we look at the linguistic comparisons drawn on the East Gate, we see that these people quite nicely cover all the territories adjactent to the lands claimed by the Longbeards: "Dale" (Iron Hills & Ered Mithrin), "Rohan" (Upper and middle Misty Mountains/Anduin Vales), "Dunland" (southern Misty Mountains). This can be further developed into the hypothesis that the "no trespassing" was written in all the languages of people the Longbeards had dealings with - from all lands in the vicinity of their claimed territories (which ranged to the "Dunland"/southern Hithaeglir region!).

As a sidenote, these linguistic statements offer some possibility for ethnic diversity in edainic Rhovanion still. Bard is described as tall and dark-haired:

This - admittedly short - description is reminiscent of Tolkiens view of the appearance of the Bëorians. Thus the "original" people of the Dale area, i.e. pre-TA 1856, may be of primarily Bëorian stock rather then the cliché blonde and blue-eyed Northmen (which fits better to the Hadorians) of the Plains (and later Rohan). This is good stuff for some ethnic differences between the various people of the dalish kingdom in the late Third Age!

Cheers
Tolwen

"Aure entuluva!"

Always motivating, Eluadin. Thanks for sharing this!

Eluadin, great stuff... I have one nitpick, and it is strictly the graphic designer in me...

Could you use something other than Papyrus? Not only is it severely overused, it's a Display font and thus not designed for large bodies of text. It severely affects readability and does not print well at lower point sizes. I realize it's free and already installed on basically every computer but even Ariel or Helvetica would be better. O|r Alois, which is what TOR uses.

Other than that I have no comment on the content included... Mostly because I can't read it.

Hi Eluadin,
I found another passage that sheds some good light on the matter of the Woodmen's ethnic origin.

It was the hadorian and bëorian tongues which were closely related and became the ancestors of Adûnaic. Since the Woodmen are explicitly mentioned in this context, their hadorian/bëorian ancestry should be clear

The haladic tongue was always very different, being easily recognizable through its alienness to Adûnaic (and its predecessors). Of this family, dunlendish was the only one remaining at the end of the Third Age (thus Tolkiens use, e.g. for the 'East Gate quote'):

Cheers
Tolwen

Tensen,

Thanks for the viewing feedback. Most of my writing, I accomplish on an iPad remotely from a traditional desktop or laptop experience. The font plays into that work-experience mode of mine. I will convert to the ones suggested and see how they view; and how they work for the document. The font? 'Alois' seems to not be part of my iOS Pages. Can that be downloaded from somewhere?

Regards,
E

I agree, what you suggests works specifically if the inscriptions were from the Third Age.

But that would mean they would have to be from the period after the migration of the Northmen to Calenardhon, and their subsequent emergence culturally as the Rohirrim. For, as the appendices to The LotR indicate: Dunland and Dunlending were place- and people names given by the Rohirrim.

This, like my own re-imagining presents some difficulties. The East Gate was destroyed long before there ever was a "Rohirrim" to speak of culturally or linguistically, and for that matter Dunlendings. That leads us back to the anachronistic nature of the usage in the essay. Is it Tolkien the Artist-scholar "discovering" Middle-earth, or is it Tolkien the Scholar-redactor "in" Middle-earth? At least these are the questions I began asking myself.

However one works with the essay "On Dwarves and Men," conundrums abound! More the reason why I appreciate the comments as the crafting continues!

Regards,
E

That is the reason why all the three mannish languages inscribed on the East Gate are anachronistic. All three appellations only came into existence (at least under these names) after the gate was destroyed.
And IMHO it makes the solution much more easy. It is either indeed the"Artist-scholar" or "Scholar-redactor" at work here. He develops this region of his creation further, and for easy recognition (or lack of more refined and appropriate "correct" terms) he uses the best-known names - or those he has used for these groups by now. I'd see it as a draft that indicates the direction (in this respect) without all details (like time-appropriate names) developed.
It might also be the view of the Scholar-redactor from the early Fourth Age who, due to lack of the correct contemporary terms, uses these as those recognizable for his audience.

We know that people using these languages (or better their forebearers) lived in the appropriate places from the Second Age on, making the quote work perfectly once you don't take the terms of "rohirric" etc. literally but as the - for the reader - recognizable equivalent Tolkien envisions here.

Cheers
Tolwen

I agree, Tolkien most likely used an equivalent term as a placeholder until he could provide more detail and verify facts. Tolkien was always editing and frequently put the desired end-result into a spot and then had to reverse-engineer things in order to make it comply with all other references. Today we might call the use of those specific terms a variable, writing something like:

On the East Gate of Moria there was written in terms ominous and strange, words meant to lend caution to any of the peoples who might seek the Dwarfes, whether the <Culture1>, <Culture2>, or <Culture3>, that "No Solicitation" and "No Trespassing" would be condoned before the doors of this great realm.

In literature I'm not sure there was a term which functioned as a <variable> at the time, so Tolkien placed the nearest equivalent appellation to the people in question. Knowing that he would have to change them during future editing. Variables, at the time, were only mathematical constructs.

Garn,

On the surface I agreed with you, but when I looked deeper into the essay I felt it could not be a direct reference based on exposure to Dunlendings of "Dunland." Here is why. Tolkien states in the essay that Dwarves learned the languages of Men, but only of those that were "immediate neighbors." If we look at a map it's easy to see precisely what you're indicating. Dunland seems quite close and in the immediate proximity of the West Gate. But, consider this: Dunlendings of "Dunland" would have to brave the haunted lands of the White Fiends (Hollin or Eregion) to form relations with Moria. Unless Tolkien in the sources or his letters mentioned this, I would be hard pressed to accept it as a possible explanation and narrative.

What about the East Gate? Had they travelled east, the people of "Dunland" would have had to pass through the gates of the North. Standing like sentinels on the east and west side of the Anduin, Lorien and Dol Guldur formed a gate (so to speak) that must be passed to enter Wilderland through the Anduin Vale. Like the Argonauth is to Gondor on the Anduin, Lorien and Dol Guldur are to Wilderland on the Anduin. You find this in detail when you read The UT with an eye for geography. In "Disaster at the Gladden Fields" descriptions abound for the geography of the area, the nether Anduin Vales as named by TOR. Would they have travelled this way? Not without a good reason, and nowhere in the sources or his letters have I read of one provided by Tolkien.

With this in mind, I still advocate that the "language of Dunland" is not a reference to cultural exchange with Dunland itself that could have produced the inscription. Or, to put it another way, the data is too compelling to the contrary to accept the argument that the people of "Dunland" are the recipients for this inscription.

Not an authoritative statement by any means...

Regards,
E

Tolwen,

Thank you for mentioning Chris' essay. As you thought, I consulted it and corresponded briefly with him on the subject.

To the notion that this is a geographical allusion, I'll pose the same question I felt I had to consider. In the sources or his letters, does Tolkien indicate explicitly or mention tangentially that Moria had contact with the South? Or, as you phrased it (and Chris suggests in his essay), are these named used in both the wider sense of the South as place Moria had relations with and in the sense given by the surface semantic obvious in each word?

In pondering this myself, more so after corresponding with Chris, I couldn't accept the geographical notion. Here's why. Gimli mentions in awe and wonder that should Dwarves know of the Glittering Caves, there would be an endless pilgrimage of them to see its wonder and bring forth to greater Good it's Beauty [the capitalization and proper naming of those terms are mine]. The Legendarium does not contain such a marvel: A massive traffic of Dwarves on Pilgrimage either from the West or East Gates. To Gimli, the son of a well travelled dwarf, this is a wonder to discover and news of magnificent import to bring back to the Kingdom under the Mountain.

Having worked through these thoughts in the course of my reading, where did that leave me...?

Regards,
E

Their is another forum thread I created named the "Woodmen of Mirkwood." I posted all the references and citations for Woodmen in the sources and letters with which I familiar. If you or anyone else has the time and interest go "looking back" and see if I missed any, it would be greatly appreciated!

As a side note, that is when I began crafting the manuscript for this campaign. Though, I've been slowly working through and crafting this narrative, I continue to find bits and pieces I missed. Or, I stumble upon my own addled thoughts! Thanks for the engagement!

Regards,
E

Hi Eluadin,

That's a good point. And the West-gate was the "elven" gate - at least as long as the realm of Eregion existed. Therefore "dunnish" traffic can be ruled out here (at least in substantial numbers).

This is only valid for the post-TA 1050 era (and at first not that strong given Sauron's weakness at first). There are "only" 931 years of dwarvish occupation left after this date, but at minimum (probably more) 3,000 have passed with fitting population patterns in place and no evil overlord in the forest. Of course TOR is set in this era of strong sauronic influence, but the "evil" Amon Lanc/Dol Guldur is only a phenomenon of the mid- to late Third Age. The millennia before that there was only Lórien as a "suspicious" area, but one that could be easily circumvented. And as long as the "Dunmen" did not try to make trouble, there is no reason why the Elves should molest them.
"Haladic" people were firmly settled in the area in question ("Dunland", Minhiriath, Calenardhon etc.) by the mid-Second Age, which provides more than enough time and opportunity for these haladic people to trade with the Dwarves before the troubles in the Third Age began. And they need not had tpo come to Moria's doorsteps. Trading posts with the "Dunmen" could have been set up at the Calenardhon border. In this view, the inscription might be more like a precaution should someone of the "haladic" people get there in person and uninvited.
Established traffic routes with Moria that were not under elven control were essential to the Naugrim. Moria existed and flourished for milennia as a dwarven metropolis which also necessitates free access to the city. Under these circumstances traffic coming north from the southern Misties are IMHO not very hard to imagine.

Not to my knowledge, though I'd have to search to verify it. Even if not, it is a situation we encounter so often in Tolkien's texts: We have to cope with indirect hints, allusions etc.

Here I have to answer with another question: Is there any compelling evidence or even reason without evidence that these must be known at the time? It might be, but with the same strength of argument, they might still be unknown. We simply cannot tell. To base an argumentation on this, is to build on sand IMHO.

And I know that you don't have it in mind, but if this idea is thought out, it comes close to the argumentum ad ignorantiam, which is IMHO always highly problematic.

Cheers
Tolwen

It sounds like you might agree, then, that "Dunland" doesn't refer to the geographical area on the western flanks of the Misty Mountains, a period where the people addressed by this inscription would have been called Dunlendings, nor was it caused by cultural exchange through the West Gate.

Two other points pre-occupied my thoughts when I began working through this conundrum. First, the Haladin, Folk of Haleth, Gwathuirim, the forest-dwellers of the shore-lands south of the Blue Mountains, and especially Minhiriath are, in fact, forest-dwellers according to every narrative description we have from Tolkien. In fact, it is a signature and defining cultural feature constantly pointed back to and emphasized by Tolkien. Calenardhon was never forested. It has always been an open area. Except for the vales of the White Mountains. These were heavily forested, and become the originating point for all future movements of this proto-Haladin people west of the Anduin. So, thre were no speakers of Halethian, proto-Haladic, Dunnish in the open lands of Calenardhon excepting the vales about the White Mountains.

What about the vales of the Misty Mountains? Tolkien explicitly says these become a refuge for the forest-dwellers of the shore-lands as a consequence of The mass deforestation policies of imperial Numenor. We might speculate they inhabited the forested southern vale of the Misty Mountains but that creates a conflict with the founding of Orthanc and the establishment in the Second Age of Angrenost's garrison. If the Numenoreans that established Angrenost's garrison came into contact with these forest-dwellers would this not have been another encounter of High Men with Men of Darkness? But, worse, now we are in the realm of really unsubstantiated Images were drawing from our Imagination.

With all this in mind, I concluded "Dunland" must refer to the forest-dwellers living in the vales on the northern-side of the White Mountains. Not those who migrated west, nor any proposed inhabitants of Calenardhon or the southern vale of the Misty Mountains. But, to propose this mired my thoughts in what was most definitely unsubstantiated Images drawn from my own Imagination!

Or, were they unsubstantiated...?

Best,
E

Yes indeed. And in the same way that neither Rohan nor Dale in this context are geographical place descriptions as well since they were equally non-existent under these names then. They are - IMHO - "placeholders" from Tolkien, so that he and the reader knows which people (ethnic groups) he addresses here wwithout the need to invent new names.

It is true that a lot of these haladic people lived or live in forests, but this is neither mandatory nor an exclusive feature of these people. People from this stock migrated northward as far as Bree at a time when Eriador was largely deforested after the war with Sauron. They might prefer forests though if they are available.

Contacts from the area of southern Calenardhon (i.e. White Mountain vales and foothills) with the Longbeards in the Misty Mountains are entirely possible. Probably not very intensive compared to those with the Men of the Anduin Vales as primary foodstuff providers, but existent nonetheless.

The fortress of Angrenost and the Orthanc were founded after the Downfall of Númenor (SA 3319). That leaves quite a few years between Sauron's eviction from Eriador (SA 1701) and the return of the Faithful. These roughly 1,600 years offer a lot of possibilities to settle down unmolested (and unaccounted by Númenórean historians).
Haladic settlement in vales on the eastern side of the southern Misties seems tempting, but here we have the massive Fangorn in the way (which was even bigger in previous times compared to the LotR-era). It might be appealing to have such forest-dwellers reside in the outskirts of eastern and/or southern Fangorn, perhaps up the Onodló, though I'm not sure whether the Ents would be OK with that. OTOH, their spouses were teaching Men on the eastern shore of the Anduin agriculture, and then the Ents themselves might at least tolerate some haladic men in outer areas of their own forests as long as these people behaved themselves.

I'm not sure whether this would work, but it is an interesting thought well worth discussing

Cheers
Tolwen