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> Rebalancing Rewards And Virtues, especially, but not only, for Hobbits
Ovid
Posted: Sep 16 2012, 12:09 PM
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It's been noted (here, for example), that some Rewards and Virtues seem a lot better than others. I'm going to quote some of the reservations and then suggest 'fixes', if necessary. Please comment on these or other Virtue/Reward issues you can see!

Hobbits seem to be a particular problem zone.

King's Blade

Problem: Piercing blows get very common at high skill levels, turning Hobbits into combat monsters.

Solutions:

either 1) the blade can do a Piercing Blow on a Called Shot, rather than a Disarm. The advantage of this is that it hews close to the original rule while slightly depowering it: the player risks missing completely if the Called Shot doesn't come off.

or 2) all King's Blades are daggers. Most ancient swords found by Hobbits are going to be too large for them to use, so it makes sense that the ones they can use will tend to be human daggers.

Lucky Armour

Problem: Very significant increase in protection.

Solution: Character may use favoured Body rating when they spend a Hope point.

Small Folk

Problem: This is effectively a permanent +2 or +3 to Parry, since most enemies are bigger than Hobbits.

Solution: It doesn't apply if Surprised or Weary (or against a Great Leap, but I think that's already RAW).

Fair Shot

Problem: Dramatic increase in Piercing Blows and virtually no chance of a Sauron. Wildly overpowered compared to Elves' Deadly Archery.

Solutions:

either 1) can reroll one skill die,

or 2) turns an ordinary success into a great one and a great success into an extraordinary one,

or 3) according to the fluff, this should actually apply to things like stones, so perhaps stones thrown by this companion have the damage stats of a dagger.

Brave in a Pinch

Problem: Unclear how long the Hope expenditure lasts - does the Hobbit ingnore Weariness penalties for just one roll or for the combat?

Solution: It's just for one roll, but it's cumulative with the Attribute bonus.



One of the Hobbit Rewards is, arguably, underpowered:

Bow of the North Downs

Problem: Very situational modifier, only granting +1 to +3 if and only if the opponent has a shield.

Solutions:

either 1) the target counts as Weary when making a Protection test against this bow,

or 2) riffing off the Beornings' Skin-Coat Virtue, this bow allows the Hobbit to trade Damage dealt for improvements in Edge and/or Injury ratings on a one-for-one basis.

Apart from Hobbits, I also feel that the Dour- and Fell-Handed Masteries are too weak. They may apply to all weapons, unlike Qualities, but they only do so on great and extraordinary successes. Maybe have them as +2 Damage rather than +1?

Any and all thoughts and comments about these and other Virtues/Rewards/Masteries/Qualities are very welcome!


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Garbar
Posted: Sep 16 2012, 12:45 PM
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One of the hobbits in my game has Fair Shot. He has added Keen and Grievous to his bow, so he gets a Piercing Blow with a 9 or better (rolling two dice) with the Injury rating is raised to 16.

Does seem overpowered at first sight, however his enemies often make the protection roll vs 16 due to high armour ratings and an underlined Armour makes it even more difficult to Wound them.

The Hobbit has a low Body rating, which means that even with Extraordinary success on an attack roll, he doesn't hit double figures on damage, so it's whittle away, or kill.

The Beorning on the other hand, has 4 in Great Spear with Grievous and a Body of 7, so can do 25 damage with an Extraordinary success.

He doesn't do Wounds as often, but there are not many foes that can take that sort of damage (minimum of 11 with normal hit) on a regular basis.

So, Fair Shot is powerful, but not overly powerful in my opinion.

And he has recently obtained Lucky Armour, but his low Body rating makes him vulnerable to Wounds, even when expending Hope. His low Endurance also means he passes out quickly.
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Fedifensor
Posted: Sep 16 2012, 03:38 PM
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Rebalancing is a tricky proposition. As Garbar accurately points out, some of the abilities that seem overpowered aren't quite as unbalancing in play. But even if they are, you don't want to overcorrect.

For example, your proposed change to Lucky Armour is a sure way to get people to simply not take that as a Reward. A +1 to +3 bonus only when you spend a Hope point? Honestly, any Reward that requires Hope expenditure should have a very pronounced effect on the situation.
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Ovid
Posted: Sep 16 2012, 06:07 PM
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QUOTE (Fedifensor @ Sep 16 2012, 09:38 PM)
Rebalancing is a tricky proposition.  As Garbar accurately points out, some of the abilities that seem overpowered aren't quite as unbalancing in play.  But even if they are, you don't want to overcorrect.

For example, your proposed change to Lucky Armour is a sure way to get people to simply not take that as a Reward.  A +1 to +3 bonus only when you spend a Hope point?  Honestly, any Reward that requires Hope expenditure should have a very pronounced effect on the situation.

But... but... it was your post in the other thread that partly inspired this one! dry.gif

What issues do you think actually need to be addressed and do you have suggested solutions?


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Halbarad
Posted: Sep 17 2012, 12:36 AM
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Just to point out that while Virtues sometimes require a Hope expenditure in the RAW, Rewards never do. I would therefore avoid any reworking to Rewards that requires a character to use Hope. smile.gif
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Ovid
Posted: Sep 17 2012, 03:43 AM
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QUOTE (Halbarad @ Sep 17 2012, 06:36 AM)
Just to point out that while Virtues sometimes require a Hope expenditure in the RAW, Rewards never do. I would therefore avoid any reworking to Rewards that requires a character to use Hope. smile.gif

Fair point, although in the case of Lucky Armour it would be a bonus to the Hope you're spending to boost your Protection roll anyway.


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Corvo
Posted: Sep 17 2012, 09:12 AM
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I admit I'm guilty of never playing the rules "as written", so tinkering comes natural to me.
That said, I'm not sure that the hobbit's virtues/rewards are broken: powerful, yet balanced by the hobbit's weaknesses (in my opinion). Low injury rating especially balances out fair shot and the king's blade, to the point that without the Fell quality they are a bit stunted (again, just my opinion; not enough actual play to be sure).
I think that without such strong virtues/rewards, the hobbit risk the same fate as WFRP's Halfling: comic relief or sidekick to the "real" heroes...

That said, I agree with your concerns about Dour- and Fell-handed.
And I add some doubts about the Spear of Bladorthin: strong, but... just one shot per combat? And with injury rating of 14 it fail to live to its fame.
Sure, you can add Fell to make it very powerful, but it's still 2 rewards for a one-shot weapon... Compare it to a Great Bow with two qualities, and you see it's a very weak reward.

Well, sorry for the long rambling wink.gif
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Fedifensor
Posted: Sep 17 2012, 10:10 AM
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QUOTE (Ovid @ Sep 16 2012, 04:07 PM)
But... but... it was your post in the other thread that partly inspired this one! dry.gif

What issues do you think actually need to be addressed and do you have suggested solutions?

Oh, I agree, there are balance issues with several of the Virtues and Rewards. There is no question that Lucky Armour is MUCH better than a Dwarf-wrought Hauberk. But if Lucky Armour is on the high end of the power curve, and the Dwarf-wrought Hauberk is on the low end, the solution isn't to lower the Lucky Armour to the level of the Dwarf-wrought Hauberk.

I admit to a bit of bias when it comes to Lucky Armour, because I'm in favor of items and abilities that improve survivability. Even if you pass all your Protection tests with flying colors, you're still going to drop eventually from Endurance loss. Taking a Wound places you at a much higher risk of dying, but doesn't really affect your combat ability.

That said, the effective immunity to rolling a Sauron is an issue...not just with Lucky Armour, but with any item or ability that lets you roll twice. My only suggested solution would slow down combat, but it works. Roll the first die - if it is a Sauron result, you can reroll, but you still treat the roll as a Sauron for purposes of failure. That means if you roll a Sauron and then a 4, and the 4 isn't enough to succeed, then you suffer the effects of the Sauron result.
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Ovid
Posted: Sep 18 2012, 12:58 PM
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I think it's true we need to look at the background of the Virtues/Rewards, so Lucky Armour might not be nearly so good for a Hobbit who isn't going to have a high Body stat to boost the roll much further. A Dwarf Hauberk, on the other hand, is a boost to an already impressive Body bonus.

QUOTE (Corvo @ Sep 17 2012, 03:12 PM)
And I add some doubts about the Spear of Bladorthin: strong, but... just one shot per combat? And with injury rating of 14 it fail to live to its fame.
Sure, you can add Fell to make it very powerful, but it's still 2 rewards for a one-shot weapon... Compare it to a Great Bow with two qualities, and you see it's a very weak reward.

Well, sorry for the long rambling wink.gif

Not at all! This is exactly the kind of input I was looking for! smile.gif Is it only one shot, though? I know it doesn't seem to make much sense, but do spears disappear once thrown according to the RAW?


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Corvo
Posted: Sep 18 2012, 05:12 PM
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QUOTE (Ovid @ Sep 18 2012, 04:58 PM)
(...)
Not at all! This is exactly the kind of input I was looking for! smile.gif Is it only one shot, though? I know it doesn't seem to make much sense, but do spears disappear once thrown according to the RAW?

Argh! No, sorry, I'm not implying that by the RAW spears are “fire and forget” weapons ph34r.gif
I wrote "one shot" as a shorthand for "most of the times you can only throw it once per combat, in the opening volley".

Admittedly sometimes you can skewer an opponent, reach the corpse before his mates close on you, retrieve it and throw it again... but I don't expect this to happen frequently.
Archers conversely can sit back in rearward stance and pepper the opponents at leisure (well, as long as companions and dogs keep standing laugh.gif )
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Ovid
Posted: Sep 23 2012, 12:42 PM
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My players are a Woodman, Beorning and a Hobbit, so fortunately I don't have to deal with the Spear of Bladorthin or Dwarven Hauberk. But you're right about the Spear, in particular - that's a tricky one, indeed.

As for some of the other ones here, I think I'll double the benefits from Dour- and Fell-Handed, but only allow them to be taken once each. That way they're better out the gate, but can't get too powerful.

For Fair Shot, one way of balancing it with Deadly Archery is to make it the same, only getting the bonus from Wits rather than Heart.

The Close Fitting Quality seems rather weak, so I could boost that to +2 Protection rather than +1 (unless it means +1d!).

Bow of the North Downs is rather weak, so I'm thinking of just giving that a flat +2 To Hit.

King's Blade is already limited to short swords, but with Fell might be too powerful, so I'm thinking about not allowing it to combine with any Qualities.

Lucky Armour is powerful, especially compared to Close Fitting, but it keeps Hobbits alive so it's not that unbalancing.


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