Hello,

I have a question regarding ponies when using the Revised Journey rules.

It says that, if the company is equipped with ponies, the number of Fatigue checks is halved. Does this only work if all members of the company is equipped with ponies?

Assuming the answer is yes, is there any benefit for a single character to ride on a pony? Under the old rules, a single character could ride on a pony and halve his Fatigue, so there was a benefit of riding while everyone else was traveling on foot.

Thanks a lot!

I've always interpreted it as the company have at least one pony but one pony is all that is needed. In other words, it's used as a pack horse.

That's also how I interpret it.

One pony for the whole company = company fares better (less fatigue rolls)
One pony for each companion = company fares quicker (40 miles/day speed instead of 20 miles/day)

What isn't clear for me is whether the company must acquire a pack animal in addition to their mounts in order to gain the "reduced amount of fatigue rolls" clause, although a final, finite answer is most likely irrelevant to most games.

Huh. I'd completely missed the fact that going by horse/pony lowers the number of Fatigue Challenges twice over - once by speeding you up and once just by virtue of having them with you.

I'm tempted to riff of a solution I proposed in the Revised Journeys thread I just necro'd: instead of halving the number of Fatigue Challenges, anyone riding gets -2TN to their All Companions roll.

Pack animals could work on the same lines, so any hero with two horses gets -4TN.

Alternatively, each pack animal could halve one hero's Fatigue loss.

I wonder if (though not convinced is necessary) there is a rhyme or reason as to make having pack animals/beasts of burden cause any negative for a party.

For instance - yes they speed up travel and reduce the number (or difficulty) of success with travel woes; but perhaps there's a downside too.

More to look after
More food needed
More of a predatory target
More of a chance of getting hurt via terrain

etc.


In other words - sure they're helpful - but they do provoke some inherent risk to have them.

I had presumed that one pony was sufficient to reduce thefatigue penalties. At Bree Strider is keen to get one pony "for we cannot count on getting food and stores". Even at an inflated price from Bill Ferny, as this would ease the journey to Rivendell. It seems appropriate that this would in game terms benefit every one in the party. Bill the Pony again accompanies the Fellowship as far as Moria. This would reduce there fatigue rolls for this journey. The Fellowship are directed to get rid of winter clothing and "carry all you need on our backs" by Gandalf when they enter the Mines (before the watcher upsets the plans).

In which case the only effect of one person riding that pony would be to limit the benefit to him. (Everyone else carries the baggage while he sits nice and comfy on horseback.)

That's not the way I read it.

1) Riding horses speed you up - ie, increase the number of miles travelled per day.

2) Pack animals lower the impact to fatigue - ie, reduced number of fatigue checks (if using Fracensco's revised rules) or halving ecumbrabce fatigue (using the original RAW).

Those are two different types of animals so if you want the mechanical benefit of both then you need to be riding a horse and have a pack horse as well. The pack horse can be shared by all the party. Obviously the riding horse can't so you'll need one each of those. ... And, could a pack animal keep up with horses?

My point was just that speeding up the journey and reducing the number of checks is functionally the same - fewer checks.

If the number of checks is determined by the length of the journey, then a situation where you have pack animals but are moving slowly should reduce either the difficulty of the check or the effect of a failed one, not their frequency.

I hadn't really considered the difference between horses and ponies, perhaps because both are mentioned in the same context as boats, but a pony would definitely be able to keep up with a horse over long distances.

That wasn't clear in your posts for me, I'm afraid, for instance:

So... A person isn't riding the pony, all the company are using it as a pack animal to share their gear/equipment. Like my post above explains the two are different things although they both make travelling easier.

That's what I was clarifying as I think some of your posts seem to illustrate a bit of confusion over the matter. No worries if not, though.

The only confusion here is that you're reading my older posts as distinguishing between horses and ponies when I've already told you I wasn't.

Okay, whatever. Like I said, no worries, if not.

In fact, the distinction between horses and ponies is irrelevant to the problem. The relevant distinction is between riding and baggage.

Neither the RAW nor the Revised rules account for one person riding when the others aren't.

It definitely shouldn't affect the journey's speed.

And in the Revised rules it shouldn't affect the number of Fatigue Challenges either, since with the exception of the initial All Companions challenge, only one character makes a roll for the whole group.

So does anyone have a solution?

It doesn't need a solution as far as I can see.

When people are riding then this effects the number of miles covered per day. Common sense dictates that all those travelling should be riding for this speed increase to take affect otherwise they couldn't travel at the increased speed due to the fact that some would be on horseback but others would be on foot.

Ponies/Pack animals halve the fatigue checks (for Revised Rules) and it's an agreed assumption that only one is needed for a whole company for this to occur as everyone puts some of their gear on the pony to lighten the load they are carrying - ie, no one rides on it.

Those are pretty standard and obvious to the RAW and revised rules.

I really don't see what your problem is.

WTF?! Kindly drop the attitude.

'My' problem is actually the one posed by the OP:

Like myself, the OP wasn't making a distinction between ponies and horses.

Personally, I'm also unhappy with the 'halving the Fatigue Challenges' solution as per Revised because then horses and ponies (whether you treat them as the same or not) essentially grant the same benefit twice after accounting for speed as well.

For me, then, a distinction between riding and baggage makes more sense and the mechanical effects should 'feel' different.

One possible solution, that also answers the OP's question:

The number of Fatigue Challenges is always calculated as if the company were on foot.

Anyone riding or in a boat travelling downstream gets -2TN to their All Companions Fatigue Challenges. On a boat travelling upstream gets you +2TN.

Having at least one pack animal, or for any boat trip, halves the Fatigue loss for failed Guide and Hunting challenges. (The logic being that baggage would be more likely to help with logistics and supplies than scouting or guarding.)

Hi everyone,

I take this chance to ask a question. I experimented with both the original Journey rules and the revised version, and I must say that in my recent games I noticed that I naturally returned to use the original rules.

The reason is that there is something very valuable in having your players defaulting to roll Travel as soon as you figured out how many rolls are needed for the current journey leg. It's fast, and there's always room to make the different travelling roles (Guide, Scout, etc.) to shine should a Hazard come up...

So, I'm uncertain. Please advocate one take or the other if you like.

Francesco

There's no attitude to drop, honest. I wasn't being funny - I simply didn't see what the problem is/was. Sorry you thought otherwise.

So...

No there isn't and there never has been. Under the RAW, as far as I'm aware, the rule where "a single character could ride on a pony and halve his Fatigue, so there was a benefit of riding while everyone else was traveling on foot", as the OP puts it, is not correct, as far as I can recall. They aren't riding it, they are putting some of their equipment on it and therefore their encumbrance fatigue is halved.

Then I'd be happy to go back to the RAW where a character's encumbrance penalty for the travelling gear is halved. That 'feels' different to when riding a horse (and doubling speed).

So, to clarify, what's that mean? You're all on horses, doubling your travel speed, but you're going to have the same number of fatigue tests as travelling on foot? So, what's the point of being on the horse? Do you still get to your destination faster than walking? Yes. Okay, so you're effectively doubling the number of fatigue tests when on a horse? I suppose being in the saddle could be that much more fatiguing than walking. I could see that.

Why not all challenges?

Seems like you're indirectly making some roles/rolls harder than others now. I'd recommend other options that therefore give similar bonuses to those roles you're now proposing to miss out with the above so they get parity.

I prefer the RAW journey rules to the revised ones, Francesco.

In the revised rules I wasn't keen on the reduction of rolls to the point where it was very unlikely for all the travel roles to require a roll in all but the longest of journeys. I also wasn't keen on everyone getting fatigue points if the one person failed on their individual roll.

We had a thread a while back regarding this in which myself and other discussed it in more detail:

http://cubicle7.clicdev.com/f/index.php?tr...&showtopic=4104

I think that goes into a lot more detail than is being discussed here.

Personally, I think there's a possibility to combine the two sets of rules and add some further rules. The issue I had with the RAW journey rules was that the dice rolling could get repetitive or boring but there are ways of alleviating this without needing to reduce the number of rolls. I think a combination of the two and some additions could result in an awesome ruleset.

Fair enough. That's one valid answer. My following suggestions assume that the OP wants some mechanical impact for one person riding while the rest walk, for the sake of verisimilitude, perhaps.

So when do you apply Travel Fatigue, since halving the penalty means you either never gain it in spring/summer or ponies are only useful in autumn/winter?

The Fatigue tests are easier:

Because only the All Companions are individual, thereby giving a mechanical solution to only one person riding.

Parity isn't really an issue though. Why shouldn't having a pack animal make some things easier but not others?

Thanks for the link. I was on holiday at the time and missed it (along with the pope's resignation - you always miss the important things on holiday!). I don't agree that the whole group shouldn't suffer for one person's failure: if you give a guy a job to do on behalf of a group, then his failure has an impact on the group.

I do agree with not all travel roles getting to roll and actually recently necro'd the original Revised Journeys thread with this suggestion:

That would be in addition to the Fatigue Challenges calculated normally.

Our group have been getting more Hazards with the Revised rules than the RAW, because you no longer need to fail the roll to trigger one.

Yeah, pack animals/ponies are only of use in Autumn/Winter. That's the way I interpreted the RAW.

Not sure what you mean here. Aren't they also individuals when testing in their separate roles as guide, scout, huntsman, look-out?

I don't necessarily think that the use of a pack animal should offer parity on all roles but it would be nice design to offer other options for the roles not positively affected due to your changes otherwise those characters in those roles will have a harder time in meeting their responsibilities on the journey when all other things are equal, which seems wonky.

That seems like a decent addition and will increase the coverage and involvement of all the rolls.

Yeah, it does.

There are some nice bits to each ruleset which is why I think a combination of the two could be arrived at...

From what I see, there has been several perceived issues in this discussion.

by RaW (rules as written), a pack animal is of no use whatsoever in the two seasons where adventurers are most likely to adventure (spring and summer). The revised journey rules do address that part.

by RaW, a mount does not ease the travel of an adventurer; it only allows a greater speed. If the player does not take advantage of this increased speed (if traveling with other companions on foot for example), the mount confers no advantages whatsoever.

by RaW, it isn't clear if a pack animal can also count as a mount (or vice versa), of if these two need to be two separate animals.

I have mixed feeling about all of the above and while I appreciate the abstract simplicity of it, half of me wish that choosing between mount or no mounts, pack animal or no pack animal would be a bit more meaningful.

As it stands, RaW gives no restrictions on mounts and pack animals either so technically, one can cross Mirkwood trackless from North to South on horseback with no more complications that if the company was on foot (actually, they would suffer half as many complications since the company travels twice as fast).

I'm not sure that's true. I don't have the rulebook with me but I seem to remember a restriction on being able to ride a horse effectively in the Journeys section of the LM book. Someone would have to check what it says to be exact or I'll update this later tonight.

Hi Francesco. I default to the original with modifications.

For the revised, I like that a Hazard can happen with a EYE regardless of success/failure, however to individualize who is rolling a Travel check seemed off, and some journeys didn't extend long enough for all members to roll equal share - or even at all.

I like the original rules that all were held accountable, but didn't like that all rolls were expected up front, which seemed counter-intuitive. It sometimes created Fatigue that was easily overcome in the first resting spot along the way. Take the journey proposed in Don't Leave The Path for instance. IF all Travel Tests were done first, after 4 days of travel when they reached Thranduil's halls, the Fatigue all disappears for the remainder of the trip.

Instead I have ALL players roll at the beginning of each "leg" of the journey. Legs are either a major terrain change, or if no terrain changes for many checks, then each 5 days (or whatever the number of per-days a Travel Check is needed based on terrain/season. In the case of that journey one was done from distance traveled between Esgaroth to Thranduil's Halls. Two characters earned Fatigue. No Hazards occurred. At Thranduil's Court, I used the "goal" of the encounter with Lindar to allow the character access to better quarters - the success earned then comfy beds and earned back their Fatigue and hearing the elven music earned back a Hope Point.

Then a new Travel Check needed to be done every 5 days through the woods, which equated to 4 checks (IIRC). Greater/Extraordinary successes allowed the player to award fellowship members 1 or 2 extra success dice (accordingly) to assist their attempts and describe how they assisted that character (a la Battle checks for combat). Each time I had them roll, I did a cut-scene - which allowed for conversation between characters, and allowed them to get to know Baldor and Belgo - learn of Baldor's wife, the trinket/talisman Belgo wore, etc. And during those cut-scenes all characters roll Travel checks (some roll Lore - their choice). Doing all characters 1 time per cut-scene as opposed to all up front mitigated the boring/repetive dice roll-bloat. A couple hazards occurred, and a couple Fatigue Points were suffered. Unlike those they received earlier, these wouldn't be removed for the remainder of the journey.


As for the discussions of the Horse / Ponies. A couple things come to mind

1) I know that dwarves rode ponies in the Hobbit (movie); though I cannot recall if this was per the book.

2) In the TOR game, I recommend if ALL characters were "riding" beasts of burden, the travel time being reduced is the appropriate call - and the number of Travel Checks are reduced due to a more swift journey (less time equals less checks). Some terrain types cannot allow for this swifter journey.

3) If a "pack-mule" is used (pony or mule or whatever) for the purpose of the entire fellowship, then the Fatigue Penalty is "halved" per the rules. (to answer how you Half "1" encumbrance - you apply 1 the first time, and 0 the second failure and so on).

4) If you have one (or more) party members on horses, but others on foot, you cannot travel faster (unless you want to leave others behind), so you don't reduce travel time nor reduce the number of Travel checks; however I would grant those riding a reduced TN on their Travel checks by -2. This then creates the "different mechanic" feel that was requested. The logic is that someone riding in a saddle all day can still become just as fatigued - but possibly not as frequently, so it's easier to pass the test.

5) I stand by an earlier comment I made that there should be some downside to always being on horses and w/ pony/mule. Just for the sake of keeping things interesting. Either they draw more attention from predators, increase difficulty or create new types of hazards with food shortage, ankles, unpassable terrain (they're not mountain goats), sinking bogs, (everyone remembers the scene of Atreyu's horse sinking in Neverending Story), being spooked and running off - during the night is a killer.

Yeah. You have to dismount in woods and dense woods.

Good to know; which page?

Bottom of LM Book, pg. 32 - it's the ** after the journey table

Got it!

(knew it too... I had no excused since I made my journey houserules from that chart!)

EDIT:

That is wrong. In the RAW, Fatigue is calculated at the end of the Journey/a new sequence/episode begins (f.e. reaching the destination or a break due to a hazard or an encounter etc.). Then you look up how many travel rolls failed and sum it up.

AB p. 155 "At the end of the journey..."

Here Amado clarified the meaning of "the end of the journey" (page 2)
http://cubicle7.clicdev.com/f/index.php?tr...opic=2109&st=15

Francesco wrote in the "revised Journey rules 3.0"

IMO an encounter or a hazard can well be an interruption "that carries some narrative weight"

Example: The Elf failed 2 rolls (=2 Fatigue in Summer / 4 Fatigue in Winter), the dwarf failed 3 rolls (=3 Fatigue in Summer / 6 Fatigue in Winter).
If the group is travelling with ponies (pack animals) they divide the fatigue by 2 (round up). So the final result would be:

The Elf has a fatigue score of 1 in Summer and 2 in winter
The Dwarf has a fatigue score of 2 in summer an 3 in winter

AB p.155 "A companion embarked on a vessel or equipped with a pony halves the TOTAL fatigue increase due to failed travel rolls (round fractions up)."

That is how I read the RAW.

Actually I don't think the RAW makes allowances for Hazards or Encounters:

All tests are resolved at the same time for all characters. (AB155, under 'Journey Resolution')

and

At the end of the journey, should a character find his Endurance rating to be equal to or lower than his Fatigue score (possibly raised by failed Fatigue tests), he will start the following episode being Weary. (AB155, under 'Travelling Gear')

The option of calculating it after each leg is presented for longer or more varied journeys:

If a company is travelling for a week or more across different terrain types or traversing several regions, the Loremaster could consider splitting the itinerary into a number of legs, making the calculations and rolls for each leg separately. (LB32, under 'Set Route')

And to get back to the issue of ponies, the expense table on AB156 explicitly assumes that not every companion might have a pony (and the section also assumes you're using a pony for a 'ride', not as a pack animal).

I just wanted to clarify that I only have Lore checks rolled for each "leg" that changes the terrain - not during each Travel check forced within the same terrain of a "leg".

This is because - changing the number of days a Journey takes as it applies to a single 5 day window before the next Travel roll is fairly irrelevant since it would never force an extra or a fewer number of Travel rolls needed.

For instance - during the Don't Leave the Path adventure, they rolled Lore rolls as they left Esgaroth, and again when they left Thranduil's Hall. The four Travel checks they made along the road did not get complemented by additional Lore checks.

As they entered the path (leaving the Halls), they rolled Lore. Failures add an additional day to the overall travels of that Leg (the path through the woods). If enough failures or success add/subtract days of the total journey up/down to the next whole number, then it would result in an extra/less Travel check for that Leg. Other benefits of course could allow the four or so checks to be made at a lesser TN for one character or allow someone to pass one automatically etc as RAW.

They then rolled another Lore check when they left the path and headed across the Valley.


I feel being done this way vs all at the beginning allows the story and game to have a better, and more natural flow to it.

The rules about ponies on AB155-156 clear up the issue of one pony vs many and ponies vs horses:

A companion embarked on a vessel or equipped with a pony halves the total Fatigue increase due to failed Travel rolls (round fractions up).

Companions looking for a ride...

In other words, it only applies to each companion with a pony and that pony is both ride and pack animal in one.

That also resolves my concern that having ponies/horses give double benefits, lowering Fatigue loss and speeding up the journey: the latter would only apply if the whole company has ponies.

Ha!

You know, I've houseruled that rule into the abyss without even thinking. Fatigue affecting a PC at the end of a journey?! I ask you! Never done that; you gain fatigue, and are affected by it, as and when you fail Travel tests in my book - it doesn't suddenly make you Weary at the end of a journey, stored in some Mythical Inter Dimensional Wearying Deposit Box and released unto the wild at journey's end.

I'd completely forgotten the existence of that rule and wish you hadn't reminded me!

'Thanks'.

... I think I need to write up an alternative Journey Rules mechanic riffing off the best bits of Francesco's efforts and Glorfindel's.

My two cents:

The way we've house ruled it is
a) You ride a pony, you get the speed increase (half travel time). Riding an animal can actually be more tiring to certain muscles than walking.
b)You let it be a pack animal, you halve your fatigue for the journey. You don't have to carry all your stuff and can amble along at a leisurely pace.
c) Men and Elves can only ride on horses, Dwarves and Hobbits can only ride on ponies. Both can function as pack animals for any race.
d) Horses cannot be brought into Daunting terrain, as forage is too scarce.

Another option for implementing Fatigue in the Revised rules would be after each full marching order.

Sort of adding on to (d).

Horses and ponies need alot of time to graze to get any semblance of what they would normally eat. Which is fine if you are somewhere where there is plenty grass and you can let them roam about. If they are geldings, they won't get that far from you (about 100 yards) as long as (1) they like you, (2) they know you have their water, (3) they aren't spooked.

In fact there's alot of downtime involved with just letting them graze/forage.

You can avoid all that by packing the grain they are accumstomed to eating.

So unless you are packing grain or just travelling to another 'civilised' place where you can give them a good rub down and they'll have plenty fodder and water, this '40 miles a day' will only apply to the first day.