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> Rivendell Elves And Second Age
usgrandprix
Posted: Dec 12 2012, 01:44 PM
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I was trying to research a little about Rivendell and I could not find anything about the types of elves in Rivendell. If someone could please give me a brief answer I'd appreciate it.

Are they primarily Sindar? Or maybe Silvan/Nandor/Laiquendi? Are there any Noldor there?

Also, what book should I read to learn more about the Second Age, Lindon, Gil-galad, etc.

I've recently read The Silmarillion and The Hobbit but it's been years since I read the Lord of the Rings just to let you know where I'm coming from.
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Mim
Posted: Dec 12 2012, 03:39 PM
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All of the above tongue.gif

Seriously though, you'll want to have the Silvan and Sindar predominate, with a smattering of the others - including Noldor. The latter should be extremely rare.

You can have fun writing up Elrond, his sons, Erestor, the chief counselor, Glorfindel, Arwen, Lindir, & so on - there are some great LM characters.

In addition to reading the LOTR, The Hobbit & The Silmarillion, you might want to consider picking up a copy of Unfinished Tales. It has some cool stories about the Second Age that you can use for your game.
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Tolwen
Posted: Dec 12 2012, 05:18 PM
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QUOTE (Mim @ Dec 12 2012, 07:39 PM)
All of the above tongue.gif

Seriously though, you'll want to have the Silvan and Sindar predominate, with a smattering of the others - including Noldor. The latter should be extremely rare.

Indeed. It's interesting to see that for the late Third Age the percentage of the "higher" Elves drops, the farther you get east. In the Woodland Realm there are no Noldor at all (Thranduil never got along with them well, which was the reason for him travelling that far east in the first place in the early Second Age - there were no Noldor to bother about *g*), at least one in Lórien (Galadriel), a few in Imaldris and most in Lindon.

In earlier times, there might have been more Noldor in Lórien (Galadriel had a retinue when she left Eregion), though it is absolutely unknown when they left again for other regions.

Cheers
Tolwen

EDIT: I'll have to double-check the thing with Thranduil. It might be that I was misled by second-hand sources here. I'll verify the sources and then maybe have to adjust my statement (or not) wink.gif

2nd EDIT: OK, I found the passage that was vaguely lingering in the back of my head wink.gif

QUOTE (J.R.R. Tolkien @ Unfinished Tales)
In the Second Age their [the Wood-elves'] king, Oropher [the father of Thranduil, father of Legolas], had withdraw northward beyond the Gladden Fields. This he did to be free from the power and encroachments of the Dwarves of Moria, which had grown to be the greatest of the mansions of the Dwarves recorded in history; and also he resented the intrusions of Celeborn and Galadriel into Lórien ... Oropher had come among them with only a handful of Sindar, and they were soon merged with the Silvan Elves, adopting their language and taking names of Silvan form and style. This they did deliberately; for they (and other similar adventurers forgotten in the legends or only briefly named) came from Doriath after its ruin and had no desire to leave Middle-earth, nor to be merged with the other Sindar of Beleriand, dominated by the Noldorin Exiles for whom the folk of Doriath had no great love. They wished indeed to become Silvan folk and to return, as they said, to the simple life natural to the Elves before the invitation of the Valar had disturbed it. The Sindarin princes of the Silvan Elves


It's interesting to see that the move to these lands was a deliberate one to avoid Noldorin "interference" in the "original" elven way of life.
In any case, it is an interesting example where we can see the divisions (perhaps even rifts) within the Elves - and especially the sometimes very cool reception the Noldor received among their "lesser" kindred.


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usgrandprix
Posted: Dec 12 2012, 06:35 PM
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Thanks for the info. The history of the elves is my favorite part of Tolkien. There are distinct cultures for sure. Indeed there is a large portion of the elves whose story remains untold.

Elrond the Half-elven seems to be a very interesting mix of not just elf and man but various elves and men.

***Minor Tales from Wilderland spoiler below***

By the way I just started reading "Those Who Tarry No Longer" which is an interesting adventure in "Tales from Wilderland" and has the players encounter a Noldor elf travelling from east of Rivendell. I'm going to run it down the road.
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Robin Smallburrow
Posted: Dec 12 2012, 06:48 PM
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Depends on the time period u want:

Rivendell was established as a High-elven refuge by Elrond in the Second Age from the remnants of the realm of Eregion after Sauron defeated them-see the Appendices of The Lord of the Rings for more, so at that time Noldor would be in the majority. It is still referred to as a High-elven place by the time of The Hobbit, although IMO Sindar would predominant by this time. Silvan elves will always be rare- as per comment about Oropher above, it wAs a different culture.

Robin S.


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Beleg
Posted: Dec 12 2012, 08:02 PM
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Tolwen, do you know EVERYTHING? tongue.gif


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Tolwen
Posted: Dec 13 2012, 03:03 PM
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QUOTE (Beleg @ Dec 13 2012, 12:02 AM)
Tolwen, do you know EVERYTHING? tongue.gif

Well, I try at least wink.gif

Cheers
Tolwen


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Garn
Posted: Jan 1 2013, 09:19 AM
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QUOTE (Robin Smallburrow @ Dec 12 2012, 06:48 PM)
It is still referred to as a High-elven place by the time of The Hobbit, although IMO Sindar would predominant by this time. 

Ok, this comment is late, but I've been playing catch-up on the boards and a potential issue occurred to me here.

You mention that Rivendell is still considered a "high-elven place". Despite changes to the population figures, this may very well be a reflection of it's architecture. Remember, Rivendell is "the last Homely House east of the Sea". Which implies it is the only remaining example of inhabited High-elven architecture in Middle-earth. (I don't use Noldor because it might be an amalgamation of various aspects from all of the high-elves' architectural motifs including influence from the Valar's domiciles in Aman.) While other elven settlements exist, all of the high-elven ones are abandoned and/or destroyed.

The Gray Havens are Silvan. Lothlorien and Greenwood/Mirkwood are Sindarin.

It's not a critical difference, just one that I think needs to be pointed out because otherwise a comparison is being made on different things: population vs architectural style.


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Tolwen
Posted: Jan 1 2013, 10:02 AM
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QUOTE (Garn @ Jan 1 2013, 01:19 PM)
The Gray Havens are Silvan. Lothlorien and Greenwood/Mirkwood are Sindarin.

Do we have evidence supporting this? I ask specifically since the Lindon demography is something I have delved a bit in the past, and from what scarce evidence we have, seems that Lindon was the part of the Northwest with the highest concentration of Noldor and Sindar.

One quote I found ad hoc relates to the Second Age (IIRC):

QUOTE (J.R.R. Tolkien@Unfinished Tales)
In a note in unpublished material the Elves of Harlindon, or Lindon south of the Lune, are said to have been largely of Sindarin origin, and the region to have been a fief under the rule of Celeborn. The History of Galadriel and Celeborn
Since Lindon was the last remnant of sunken Beleriand, it is very likely those Eldar of Beleriand still lingering in Middle-earth after the overthrow of Morgoth lived here, in the last part of their ancient home not yet covered by the Belegaer. Later in the Second age, some of these went with Galadriel and Celeborn to found Eregion, but only part of them. And remember that with Gil-galad, there was a pure Noldo king of Lindon until the dawn of the Third Age.
Naturally, over the course of the Second and Third Age there was a steady trickling of Eldar departing over the Sea (and sometimes more than a trickle), so that by the end of the Third Age only a fraction of its former people are likely to remain. But again, even these remnants are likely to be almost exclusively Sindar (plus a minority of Noldor) and not the "lesser" kindreds whose settlements were further east.

Cheers
Tolwen


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farinal
Posted: Jan 1 2013, 11:55 AM
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But isn't the Eregion a Noldor realm? How could refugees from Eregion that are living in Rivendell could be less than Sindar living there? And why is there even any Sindar elves living in Rivendell? And I think Lindon is also fully populated by Noldor? No?


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Tolwen
Posted: Jan 1 2013, 12:28 PM
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QUOTE (farinal @ Jan 1 2013, 03:55 PM)
But isn't the Eregion a Noldor realm? How could refugees from Eregion that are living in Rivendell could be less than Sindar living there? And why is there even any Sindar elves living in Rivendell? And I think Lindon is also fully populated by Noldor? No?

It's easiest to answer this chronologically. After the War of Wrath, most of the Noldor and many Sindar left for Eressëa. Those that remained in Middle-earth lived in Lindon. If we follow the information above, the part south of the gulf was dominated by the Sindar, while the northern part might be the primary dwelling place of the Noldor. Around the year 700 of the Second Age, Galadriel and Celeborn led a number of Noldor and Sindar from Lindon to found Eregion. That it was not an ethnically pure realm is testified in UT:
QUOTE (J.R.R. Tolkien@Unfinished Tales)
Celeborn and Galadriel therefore went eastwards, about the year 700 of the Second Age, and established the (primarily but by no means solely) Noldorin realm of Eregion.

Of course the Sindar were those that had no problems with the Noldor (obviously), but some Sindar (especially survivors from Doriath) were on quite cool terms with the Noldor. Oropher (and probably Thranduil) were among the latter and consciously went among the Silvan Elves of Greenwood (adopting their culture and language) to be free from Noldorin influence.
The somewhat strained relations and distance of the Woodland Elves and the Noldor (plus the majority of the Sindar) can be observed in the War of the Last Alliance as well. Here Oropher's Silvan Elves (with Thranduil, son of Oropher) joined the Alliance, but refused to be under Gil-galad's command. Consequently, their lesser experience and inadquate equipment for such a vicious war led to much higher losses than would have been necessary.

After Eregion was destroyed by Sauron in the War with the Elves (SA 1693-1701), Imladris was founded in SA 1697 by the survivors from Eregion and the remnants of Lindon's expeditionary force led by Elrond. Since Eregion was of mixed ethnicity (even though dominated by Noldor), the original population in Imladris reflected the population structure of Eregion to some degree. Over the course of the second half of the Second and the whole of the Third Age, Imladris was a safe haven and retreat. Many of the original inhabitants probably left over the Sea. Perhaps a few new Eldar settled there as well, but overall it should be a dwindling community as well. In the Third Age, the conserving influence of Vilya probably stayed the dwindling to a good degree, allowing the continued existence of the Last Homely House as a safe haven and source of power until the War of the Ring.

Cheers
Tolwen


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