Not sure about Shield Maiden. I get the impression that Eowyn/Dernhelm was the exception rather than the rule.

Personally, I think the shieldmaiden option ought to exist because Tolkien didn't invent it. It comes from the sagas. Plus, I have a feeling that the culture of the Northmen definitely included taking up arms to defend one's family, regardless of gender, if it came to it... Eowyn's sentiments in the LotR are probably not limited to her, though possibly they are high status positions, not necessarily what working women would think or act on.

I see what you are saying Jefferwin, but taking up arms to defend your hearth and being a shield maiden isn't he same thing. One is a proposed cultural background and the other is forced upon a victim of circumstance (and is not merely confined to shield maidens).

In UT in the story of Cirion and Eorl the revolt of the Northmen is a pyrrhic victory because the rebels did not expect the young Easterling women to be trained in defence of their homes. This suggests to me that may have been a quite alien concept to the Northmen. Not the fact that the women defended their homes, but the fact that they were trained to do so.

Besides, I believe that there are no other backgrounds in the game that are gender specific(I may be wrong). I don't know if it's actually needed. Surely any female character could define herself as a shield maiden, nomatter what her culture or background.

True. Northman Culture + warrior/noble background + Female + Slayer is essentially a Shieldmaiden already.

Could see them appearing in the 4th age though after Eowyn's magnificent showing against the Witch King.
I have to say that particular scene was my most eagerly anticipated scene in the whole movie trilogy. That, and Gandalf's return to Helms Deep.

Stirring to the soul.......

Given the Northman-based focus of The One Ring so far, you might want to call them Riders of the Riddermark or Riders of the Mark rather than Rohirrim or Riders of Rohan. Rohan is Gondor's Elvish name for them, not their own.

Tel, I may be having a 'senior moment' but do the points add up for the common skills? I make it 27. Should they not add up to 29? (or, do they already and I'm just being daft?)
Also, there is a statement from one of the Orcs outside Fangorn that the Horseboys can see better in the dark than most manlings. Rather than trying to retrofit this as a cultural blessing or virtue, perhaps we should just move around the common skill points. Drop both courtesy and inspire to 1pt freeing up extra points to make awareness 3pts.
or,
drop courtesy to 1pt, put 1point in to Craft and make Awareness 2pts.
In this case I would also exchange the Awe and Inspire points.

My thinking is that all Riders have other craft skills(probably horse related) for when they are not serving in the Eohere. Also a rider of Rohan is always an awesome sight but, a few individuals apart, is not generally an inspirational speaker. You catch my drift?

Lastly, you still have a few references in there to trained horses that you need to adjust.

Ps Stormcrow, they are Riders of Rhovanion in the PDF.

Personally, I would have made them more of a 'body' culture than a 'heart' culture.

Awe is appropriate, but so is Inspire (more so even I would say).
Athletic vs Travel is perfect at 2 each.
I would have favoured (not as in favoured but as in preferred) Awareness over Insight personally. They are described as being keen, but they did get duped by Saruman. (I know we're not talking about the Rohirim specifically...)
I'm not sold on the 2 point in Explore, but nor am I against it either.
My most 'severe' comment is about Song being lower than Courtesy. They don't have the 'civilized' manners of of Gondor or the high elves, even if King Theoden show much politeness to the hobbits. They have however a strong oral tradition and remember much folklore, which of the custom skills is the most appropriate IMO.
Battle is a must. I'd be OK with Craft at 0, and Lore shouldn't be higher than 1. (edit: In retrospect, Lore should be there. It fits.)

This sounds negative but I'm still awed by your work guys!

TBH, I chose craft as I view that most of the Riders have 'day jobs'. I get the impression that only a part of the whole hundred Eored's are actually standing forces and the remainder are a bit like the Anglo Saxon Fyrd.

Also, Glorfindel, I believe that they are higher in body than heart. I initially saw them as semi nomadic. Telcontar went with Body as he saw them as more sedentary. In hindsight, I agree with him.

In TOR, is inspire not for stirring speeches and the like? As I said, all Riders are Awesome but not all are Inspirational. IIRC, awe is for inspiring physicality.

I agree, but the common skills are mainly geared toward 'heart' skills. My point was about having more points invested in 'body' skills altogether

Glorfindel

Hal,
For the common skills i took the 20 points that Bardings had on p37 and moved them around. Not sure on the total math....

As for trained horses my goal was to make it equally applicable to your expanded trained horses idea if people wanted to use that. Is it confusing as it stands? If so let me know exactly where, I have read it so many times I dont see it anymore.



Et al,

Common Skills:
Insight over Awareness: I thought since insight was the abiltity to reognising "hidden thoughts and beliefs" would help in 'reading' horses as oppsoed to actual surroundings.

Explore: I was thinking the ability to find places to camp and water in the grassland barren lands. Travel is described more as a strength of spirit so Explore to me seems to be more of a concrete thing.

Song over courtesy...You know what i agree with you there. I'll out the two points into Song and the 1 point into Craft.

That will have the added effect of putting more skill points in Body.

I agree that the symbiotic relationship that a whole culture has with an animal (horse in this case) is much more an understanding 'heart' thing than a brawny 'body' thing.

Yes they are Riders of Rhovanion in the pdf. We were trying to stay away from calling them Rohirrim at all so that it wouldnt conflcit with a future release. As it stands the point was to have something for a horse people that coule be found anywhere and also serve as a proto-rohorrim for players who had their heart set on playing a Rohiric character (like one of my players did.)

Awe versus Inspire.....I'm not sure where I stand on this one.

I was thinking of it as the skills uses in combat. Now that there are two points in Song to Rally Comrades I could lean towards putting the 2 points in AWE and 1 in Inspire.

Any other thoughts on this one?

Updated:

Changes:
- Moved skill points. (decided to opt for the Awe 2 Insire 1)
- Added Specialties
- added Distinctive features

I understand from a perspective of not confusing titles of peoples in future supplements - but aside from that, what truly is the difference between a "rider of Rhovanion" and a "rider of Rohan" (or Rohirrim)?

I mean geographically Rohan is just a small section of the Rhovanion kingdom (Wilderland area) unless I'm mistaken. So how would a rider of Rhovanion that isn't Rohan-specific differ? Or are the stats and template being attempted being done to reflect Rohan specific but just calling them of Rhovanion (the larger territory)?

Or is this just a "rose by any other name...." type of thing.....?


Robert

Hey Robert,
The Riders of Rhovanion are meant to represent a last remaining vestige of the old Rhovanic Horse Culture of the Northmen. Whether they exist in the default era of 2946 is open to interpretation and basically stems from a single line in the book 'Unfinished Tales'. In the previous 'Redwater' thread we(the community) came to the conclusion that it was possible that they could still exist in a severely diminished form on the Northern Plains of Wilderland.
As they are the Proto Rohirrim, I began working on them a a seventh background option (called Horsefolk)for Bardings as they are noted as having merged with the Dalefolk.
Telcontar got involved and with the aid of a few others, the whole thing grew wings(hooves ).
Anyway, you are right. It is very much a case of 'a Rose by any other name'.
The template can represent Rohirrim, or their Wilderland cousins. There may even be a case for Eotheod remnants in the Upper Vale of the Anduin if you like that idea.

Rohan is the old Gondoran province of Calenardhon and it was gifted to the Eotheod after the battle of the Field of Celebrant. The Eotheod became the modern Rohirrim. It is not AFAIR a part of Wilderland which lies beyond the Anduin and north of Lorien.

No, Rhovanion ends at the Argonath. Rohan is not in Rhovanion.

For riders north of the Argonath, I suppose the correct term should "Riders of Wilderland." They wouldn't use the elvish word Rhovanion; they would use the common term Wilderland, or whatever the Northman (as Old English or, more likely, Gothic) term for it would be.

But Vidugavia styled himself as King of Rhovanion, did he not? I didn't even realise Rhovanion was an Elvish name.
Was it's Elvish name not Dor Rhunen(at least,according to Merp)?

Thanks for helping clear all that up, bud. Much appreciated. :-)

I thought I knew most of that but it was good to see it all spelled out like that for confirmation and clarification.


Robert

Northmen of Rhovanion from the Encyclopedia of Arda.

"A once-populous race of Men who lived along the eastern fringes of Mirkwood, and the lands eastward to the River Running, during the earlier centuries of the Third Age. They were famed as horse-breeders and horse-riders, and they made their mark on the geography of Middle-earth: the East Bight of Mirkwood was mainly the work of their woodsmen. These Northmen lived in friendship and alliance with Gondor, their neighbour to the south.

After the coming of the Dark Plague, and the later wars against the Wainriders, the Northmen of Rhovanion dwindled in numbers, and broke into several factions. One of these, led by Marhwini, travelled northward up the Vales of Anduin and settled there. These were the ancestors of the Éothéod, and so ultimately the Rohirrim."


As Halbarad has mentioned this is not meant to be a distinct cultural people, but a combination of a culture and a background together, basically to add flavor to the peoples dwelling in the north. In my opinion they can be equally horse folk anywhere within the Wilderland. Calling the PDF The Éothéod, while accurate would have confined them to a specific place and time which was not the intent. Eorlingas, while the name used by the Rohirrim for themselves, signifies only that they are of the tribe or people of Eorl. This is not to say that some of the people didnt remain in the north, or were members of a different tribal group etc. All of this depending on how you want your Wilderland populated for the game.

In my game a player is using it as a man of Rohan. If he meets other horse peoples of the plain they will, by nature of a common descent, have similar cultural identifiers. Mechanics wise they are the same people, their history and character concepts will shape their personal identities.

Marvelous! Wonderful info. I think that spells it out so clearly.

You guys are fantastic. I am in awe of the knowledge some of you possess of The Professors' writing.


Robert

Hey Tel,
Sorry man but the points for common skills are still not right. You have two more points to spend. I would take the single point out of Healing or Search to give you three points to spend. This means that you can put 2points into Awareness (at a cost of those 3points). See my earlier post for my reasoning on why a high awareness skill might be appropriate. This brings it up to 29 points in total.

The references to mounts trained in combat and war trained mounts are in the virtues of HorseWhisperer & Mounted Combat as well as the Mastery for Mounted Charge. If you are definately not planning to use my variant for mounted combat then their being there probably does confuse things a little.

You gotta help me out here, i dont know what your talking about.

Common Skills for a Barding (basis for RoR)

Awe 1 Inspire 2 Persuade 3
Athletics 0 Travel 2 Stealth 0
Awareness 0 Insight 2 Search 1
Explore 2 Healing 0 Hunting 0
Song 1 Courtesy 2 Riddle 0
Craft 1 Battle 2 Lore 1

Common Skills for RoR:

Awe 2 Inspire 1 Persuade 0
Athletics 2 Travel 2 Stealth 0
Awareness 0Insight 2 Search 1
Explore 2 Healing 1 Hunting 1
Song 2 Courtesy 0 Riddle 0
Craft 1 Battle 2 Lore 1

They both equal 20 where is 29 coming from?

I take it that you didn't get my e-mail then.

Hal,
OK I gotcha now.
I went with your suggestion and added two points to Awareness and dropped the point in healing.

PDF updated. to reflect the change.



Jon,
Can we add this to the resources page?

If the Riders of the Rhovanion are going to be a whole new heroic culture, then it needs Backgrounds. So here's my take on it!

- Riders of the Rhovanion -

Backgrounds

1 – The Grasslands of the Mark
Years ago, your mother rode from the plains of the Mark and found husband among the riders of the Rhovanion. When her kinfolk departed the following season, your mother stayed behind to raise a family of her own in the vale of Anduin. While she lived there happy, she often talked of the green grasslands of the Mark with a certain longing and melancholy. When she sang the songs of her kin, your heart longed to see the world beyond.

Basic Attributes
Body 6, Heart 6, Wits 2

Favoured Skill
Explore

Distinctive Features
(choose two traits from those listed)
Adventurous, Bold, Eager, Horseman, Proud, Tall


2 – The Wine of Dorwinion
On the western shores of the Sea of Rhun lies Dorwinion; most easterly of all Northmen’s settlements. While they are now few and far between, the Dorwinions still stand and both men and elves still fancy their fine wines. There are over 100 leagues of uncharted and wild lands separating Lake-Town and Dorwinion but nevertheless, riders make the journey back and forth every year. Your uncle took you on such a journey once and together, you shared many adventures.

Basic Attributes
Body 7, Heart 5, Wits 2

Favoured Skill
Travel

Distinctive Features
(choose two traits from those listed)
Adventurous, Cautious, Hardened, Hardy, Horseman, Wary


3 – Ghosts of the Pasts
It is said that a powerful tribe of Northmen once inhabited the eastern verges of Mirkwood, carving a strong realm amid the trees. But the bight of Mirkwood is not all that is left of their realm; graves and stones markers haunt the clearing, and voices can be heard, if you know how to listen. So your grandmother says and like her, you’ve proven to be sensitive to the hidden things of this world.

Basic Attributes
Body 5, Heart 5, Wits 4

Favoured Skill
Insight

Distinctive Features
(choose two traits from those listed)
Cunning, Horseman, Just, Quick of Hearing, Secretive, True-hearted


4 – Tacks and Bridles
Life among horses is not only a life of animal-husbandry. Where there are horses there are also reins and bits, saddles of hardened leather and shoes of cold iron. Your father showed you the trade he learned from his own father, and riders of many tribes use the works of your craft on their travels and adventures. “It was only time”, he said, before you would follow a charismatic rider to live adventures of your own.

Basic Attributes
Body 6, Heart 5, Wits 3

Favoured Skill
Craft

Distinctive Features
(choose two traits from those listed)
Adventurous, Clever, Curious, Horseman, Just, Patient, Trusty


5 – Wild-ox Hunter
Many years ago, tribes of riders left the plains of the Rhovanion for a more sheltered life in the Vale of Anduin. Nonetheless, many riders go back in the spring to hunt the wild oxen that roam the plains. For most young men it is a rite of passage but or you, it has become a yearly event.

Basic Attributes
Body 6, Heart 4, Wits 4

Favoured Skill
Hunting

Distinctive Features
(choose two traits from those listed)
Adventurous, Bold, Cunning, Hardened, Horseman, Reckless


6 – Errant-Runner
Since the Battle of the Five Armies, the vale of Anduin has become safe enough for a lone messenger to ride openly from tribe to tribe, delivering tidings of war and tokens of peace. These errant-runners are often recruited amongst young riders of the Rhovanion, and you were chosen to deliver the news of Beornings, Woodmen and Riders alike, sometimes as far as Lake-Town or even Dale. But even after the departure of the Goblins, the land remains wild and only an alert rider like you can avoid the many hazards of the wilderness.

Basic Attributes
Body 7, Heart 4, Wits 3

Favoured Skill
Awareness

Distinctive Features
(choose two traits from those listed)
Hardy, Horseman, Keen-eyed, Swift, Trusty, Wary



[edit]: English isn't my mother tongue. Please excuse bad sentencing.
[edit2]: I included the 'horsman' cultural trait in every background. I first overlooked it, then fixed it rather quickly. This may or may not be appropriate.
[edit3]: Again looking at the pdf, I noticed that the Riders have high body, medium heart and low wits unlike bardings who have medium body and high heart. I changed the backgrounds accordingly but I originally designed them as a barding 'spinoff' culture.

Being the late to the conversation. I repeat what someone else has already said the Rohirrim are my favorite "human" culture in the tales. I am going to flip through your pdf soon. I am glad the horse-archer issues was settled early on.

Very nice Glorfindel. You seem to be accounting for all possible tastes in Horsefolk there, from the Upper Anduin Vale to Dorwinion. A good spread of possibility.

My own backgrounds are going to be a bit more Dale centric (based in the angle of the Carnen and the Celduin). Fortunately, for me, there are three of your backgrounds that I can and will shamelessly plunder to add to the three (of my own)that I am already working on.

Good show old chap.....

I was wondering what was the 'canon' stand on riders of the Rhovanion, if any.

Is there still any riders that didn't follow Eorl the young at the end of the third age and if so, where are officially they living? I assumed that the reminder would still be in the vale of Anduin where Eorl is said to come but would that be appropriate? Would they have settled down and eventually become the beornings as we know them?

I'd like to have your opinion on that; I might revisit my backgrounds if the upper Anduin vale isn't best suited for 'modern' riders...

Glorfindel

From Cirion & Eorl, we know that some few of the Rhovanic Horsefolk fled to Dale, where they merged with the Dalefolk, at the time of the first Wainrider invasion. It is that single point of reference that sparked my initial enquiry about a possible remnant of that culture still existing on the plains to the east of Dale and the Long Lake.
It was then presumed that following the pyrrhic victory in the revolt against the Wainriders that the plains of Southern Rhovanion no longer supported a Northman Horsefolk culture.

However, later in the same story, we learn that the Balchoth are slaying and driving a further remnant of the Northmen up the River Running and into the Forest. These are described as friends of Gondor, still dwelling to the east of Mirkwood and also as being kin to the Eotheod. Cirion hopes that the Eotheod will ride to the aid of their southern kinfolk, if not to the aid of Gondor.
I think that it is most likely that those who reached the safety of the forest would have also joined with the folk of Dale, being the closest place of relative safety although, some may have continued around the north of Mirkwood to join the Eotheod.

Finally, in the Hobbit we learn that the reborn Kingdom of Dale attracts many men from the south and west. The southerners IMO are the Dalish exiles living in the valley of the River Running since their eviction by Smaug. I believe that those who come from the west are likely to be a remnant of the Eotheod from the Upper Anduin Vale as well as some few of the Woodmen who do not take Beorn as their Lord.

Yes, this seems to merge well with canon.

Speaking of which, you may be able to have some fun with the plotline of the Northmen & their revolt against the Wainriders. Do you recall when they rose in Unfinished Tales?

It's quite possible that by the time you reach your plotline with the Balchoth & the following years, one of your player-hero Horsefolk is descended from a champion of the Northmen who led his people during this (or subsequent) revolts - not one of the lords (or even Vidugavia) of course, but a lesser one.

Your player will probably relish delving into his character's development .

PS You also mention the Eotheod & the Upper Anduin Vale. I'm curious what you're doing with Framsburg during the default time of the game - leading up to the War of the Ring.

The reason that I ask is because I'm toying with the idea of using Framsburg as grass-grown ruins, probably a Saxon Burgh-type construction from the Eighth-Tenth Centuries, though the jury's still out.

Whether to pop a nasty or two in there, be it a spirit of some type (Eotheod murderer haunted by his crime, Barrow-wight dispatched by the Witch-king post-Angmar, that sort of thing), or a Mountain or Hill-troll, or sans occupant is still in the air.

Basically, I like the Scatha angle & have another story worked out for him, & this makes an intriguing lead-in. Thanks for your input!

Thanks for all of that!

Indeed having the surviving riders living in the angle of the River Running and Redwaters makes more sense than in the Upper Anduin Vale. Although I could see some vestigial remains of their culture there, it is likely that their descendants are (at least in part) the ones we know as beornings now.

I"ll probably rework my "Grassland of the Mark" as yet another variation of "of two cultures" and the Errant-Rider as some sort of scout watching the eastern borders for both riders and kingdom of Dale.

Another question about those two rivers; can they easily be crossed? In summer and fall only? Any fords we know of? Do the Dwarves of the Iron Hill cross the Redwaters at its source, or do they have a bridge somewhere (when they mean to visit Erebor)?

Glorfindel

Glorfindel, I have resurrected an old thread from Jefferwin which links to a fantastic old Merp map of the Wilderland. This could be useful in giving you ideas of where to place bridges, fords and settlements.
In the default of 2946, I am assuming that most of the settlements from 1640 are deserted and haunted adventure sites.
As for the rivers, I don't know I there is anything in the canon at all. I have cast the Celduin as the Dneipr and the Carnen as the Dneistr. I am thinking that they are both shallow, narrow and fast flowing until their confluence when they deepen, widen and start to meander a little down to the Sea of Rhun.

Also, I fully agree that the Beornings are probably a mixture of left over Eotheod, Woodmen who have accepted Beorn as their Chieftin and some Dlefolk who fled west when Smaug evicted them from their homes. I really don't have a problem with a vestigial Horsefolk culture still existing in the Upper Anduin vale.

I think the comment was about mining metal.... I may be wrong.

Mim, IIRC the Eagles Eyre and Goblin Gate book for Merp describe another Northman settlement in the Upper Vale-Maethelburg, I think?
I would be inclined, like yourself, to treat Framsburg as a ruin and potential adventure site. The previously mentioned settlement might still be inhabited though, as that region hasn't really experienced any catastrophic events or invasions since Frama slew the dragon.(AFAIR)
I am inclined to think that the Beornings are a bit of a hybrid culture, consisting of elements of several other, more distinct, Northman cultures.
I would also say that you are spot on with the reference to Anglo Saxon Burhs. They are exactly what I am envisioning.

Thank you Halbarad. You are correct concerning Maethelburg, & I need to look around for my ole copy of Goblin Gate & Eagle's Eyrie. I'm not too keen on their interpretation of the town, however, though I suppose it works in a clutch . At any rate, thanks again!

Hi Brooke, you can find the link to the PDF in this thread.

Thanks!

Hi Telcontar. Some friends and I have made our own version of the Rohirrim, using Halbarad's Riders of Rhovanion backgrounds with some changes. I hope to put our culture up on the forums at some point, and as such I recently asked Halbarad for his permission to use the altered backgrounds. He pointed out that I should ask you about the pdf, so I had a look at it once more and realised that, consciously or not, some of our virtues and rewards are similar to yours: for instance, we included a horn, a horse, and a helm based around the plume worn by captains. While our versions have different applications and affects to yours, they are similar, so I wanted to check with you if it was okay and that we weren't too close to your ideas. Thanks