So the players have ended up following some orcs back to their front-porch in the Misty Mountains. I have some time to flesh out the scenario, but I'm at a loss at how to go about it. I don't want the TOR game to suddenly feel like a dungeon-crawl, but I also don't want to railroad it to a series of pre-planned encounters that emulate the Tolkein-esque feel. How do you suggest running this "dungeon" in the Misty Mountains?

Are the characters looking for something in the orc caves? Or do they simply want to go in there for the hell of it? If the latter is the case, you're probably in for a dungeons crawl, and after all, why not? It works for the setting, and the combat system is lethal enough that the players will have to weigh the risks and can't just run through the caves slaughtering everything in their path. So it should remain interesting.
If they're looking for something specific, you could always invent an interesting NPC who is also looking for it/guarding it, thereby allowing for some interaction beyond combat. The first thing that comes to my mind is an old, but still mighty giant who has crawled down into a cave to die and doesn't want to be disturbed by pesky adventurers ...

In order to help, we really need more information on the previous adventure you ran and what happened during that session(s). I can provide lots of guesses and various scenarios, but without knowing what happened previously in your campaign any efforts are wasted.

For instance... In your last session, prisoners were taken and the characters followed the orcs in order to free them. Which leads to questions like:
Why did these orcs take these prisoners, specifically? Are the orcs looking for something that these prisoners might have? Is it something that the players have and the ignorant orcs made a mistake? By following the orcs have the players unwittingly brought this item into reach? Do they want this item for themselves? Or some other NPC? Maybe the orcs are just hungry? Or the orcs have a need for slaves?

In another instance... the orcs, finding themselves socially disgraced, have gathered more genteel folk to assist by teaching the orcs better manners, proper etiquette and some modicum of social grace. (Unfortunately, their current level of a "polite invitation" was completely mis-understood.) Whereas this reveals other matters of concern:
Is there sufficient hot water for the orcs to bathe? What about dental hygiene? Any clean (patched, washed, folded, vermin free, non-rotting) clothing? Do the orcs have a dining room table, flatware, linen and dinnerware? Besides everyday fare, are delicacies requiring specific eating habits available? Are other well-mannered participants available to practice small talk and other banter? What about the dance-master, has he arrived yet?

See what I mean?

Garn, you just gave me an idea

A couple of suggestions, though, I shall first admit I have not led anything underground yet. But, here goes...

Adapt the Journey rules for underground use both with Fatigue and Corruption Tests. Work with the same terrain modifier tale; however, invent new terrain types sensible to an Orc complex. Keep the the rgion table for Blighted Lands as is, just assign them to the various tunnels, caverns, complexes, etc. Modify the Hazed Episodes accordingly. Some suggestions:

Lost Directions: Unchanged mechanically

Uncomfortable Lodgings: Unchanged mechanically

Cruel Weather change to Cruel Reality: The Fellowship are surprised as they stumble into a foul cavern full of some horrific example of Orc-style living, make a Corruption Test against the Anguish caused by the senseless destruction...

Monster Roused: Throw in a Cave Troll...

From Hunter to Prey: Something really creepy from the underdeeps takes up their trail and pursues them as the Fellowship pursues their objective...

Scanty provisions: hmmmm.....

No Way Forward change to a Mind of Metal: The Fellowship stumbles into a cavern complex full of evil-looking and foul-reeking engines and other cruel Orc devices. They must make an Explore Task roll to navigate their way around and through the maze of machinery. Fail and someone ends up trapped in a compactor, pincer, wheel, belt, who knows what contraption and must be rescued...

Out of the Frying Pan...: Leave it unchanged, its my favorite!

This should allow you to keep a similar gaming session structure: Journey followed by Episodes of action and encounters.

Encounters can be with Orc thralls taken from the Free Peoples. Invert the Encounter rules so instead of attempting to gain something from them as a resource. Instead, the Fellowship is trying not to receive something from them - Despair - that could lead to Shadow points or Corruption Tests.

essentially, allow the environment to wear on them through fatigue and Shadow! If Mirkwood is bad, at least it alive still. Take the life out of the adventure and make it an industrial waste land, e.g., using Saruman's sensless transformation of Isengard as a model.

Regards,
E

Excellent ideas, E!!!

For Cruel Weather substitute or just adding: Cruel Natural Disaster


Floods, freezes, cave-ins, crumbling stalagmites, collapsing floor, natural harmful gas chamber, swift unground river, harmful spores/dust, icy floor and cavern cannot be traversed easily, underground water-fall, or waterfall that causes spray mist that saturates and causes hypothermia, etc.




As for critters: a goblin with "guard-bats" would be a cool BBEG, or a big bad bat mount (or both if you're cruel like me).

I immediately thought of Gollum ... looking for his precioussssss. A nice tie-in to core material.

Kneverwinterknight,
Hurray! Glad I could be of help.


Elaudin,
Scanty Provisions: The characters lose their provisions (lost backpack, vermin infestation, hole, just plain squished). While wandering around they taste a few underground delicacies - psychedelic or poisonous fungi. Walking through a chamber, they stir up dust (actually dehydrated fecal matter) which is breathed in and infects the characters thereby. Maybe some mold which gives them upset stomaches or an allergic reaction. Some innocent looking critter, probably aquatic / amphibian is highly poisonous (think blue octopus). Or it's a creature with a "lure" appendage, maybe a "two-headed" snake; tail appears to be the head of a normal sized snake, but the rest of the giant snake is behind a boulder.

SK, Garn: Those are great suggestions!

Regards,
E

Thanks for your replies (and sorry for the delay responding. )

The previous scenario was that the players came across Beornings who've been trailing some orcs carrying a large crate. They are following them north through the Misty Mountains. A hobbit player has, in character, mentioned how she would love to see the Great Eagles. I thought it would be cool to use her cues to "retroactively" foreshadow that she would, so the crate actually is a cage for one they captured. Neither the Beornings nor the players knew of the Great Eagle. The players joined the hunt and the session ended. I usually improvise improvise the games I run, but I thought this was a good opportunity to construct a longer encounter.

That said, my original post wasn't asking for ideas to populate the dungeon with (although I'd gladly take those too!) but how to run a dungeon while still feeling like Tolkien. I suspect that when Gygax and Arneson were crafting their first dungeons, that the Mines of Moria were in their thoughts. However, their approach was one of exploration... a what would it be like to be in Moria for four days. Tolkien, did not spend time actually exploring Moria. He used colorful narration to put the reader there, but it wasn't the experience of a dungeon-crawl. The paradox is how does one go about creating the feeling of a dungeon-crawl without actually making it a crawl itself?

Eluadin's idea to adapt the Journey mechanics is an excellent one for long journeys underground (Moria being a prime example) but I am looking for something more focused. While I love the Journey mechanics, it removes player-agency. The only choices they make is once the encounter occurs. There is character-agency because we make rolls on their skills, but there is little for the players to do up till the encounter itself. This is NOT a criticism of the rules. It must do this to give the sense of the greater world outside the characters, but it's not what I'm looking for in this. I'll certainly adapt those rules for longer journeys underground.

This led me to think what about the old-school classic dungeon-crawl I was looking to capture, and it occurred to me it was the decision points. In a crawl, players micro-manage resources -- time being a big one -- making choices all along the way. Exploration is a big part of this. I could have created a railroad with colorful narration that always led to the pre-planned encounter despite what the players do, but that is only the illusion of player-agency.

Then I remembered reading a somewhat recent thread on RPG.net about dungeons as a flowchart. I tried to find it again but couldn't. From what I recalled, it removed the micro-managing of the crawl to meaningful narrative choices. At the time, I didn't give it much thought because dungeon-crawls are not about narrative choices: they're about practical ones to ensure, as much as one can, their character's survival. However, in this case, this is exactly what I was looking for. By constructing a flowchart with player choices along the way, the players impact the narrative by navigating, not an actual dungeon itself, but story possibilities. The design is similar to a video game with multiple endings, except with the focus narrowed down to the dungeon. Once they leave the dungeon, the experience returns to the truly open-ended world of pen-and-paper RPGs.

I'll just add a background note here. The creators of D&D may have had Moria in mind, but it wasn't foremost.

Gygax and Perrin had written the Chainmail miniatures rules, and Dave Arneson played it. They included miners in the game who would try to tunnel underneath the castle they were besieging. Arneson came up with the idea of turning those mine tunnels into an adventure all by themselves, where players' figures would represent a single man instead of 10 or 20 men as usual. These little side-quests turned out to be very popular.

Gygax heard what Arneson was doing and expanded on it, creating Dungeons & Dragons. Gygax himself disliked Tolkien's works, preferring the sword and sorcery genre over Tolkien's high fantasy, so D&D started out most resembling the works of Leiber, Vance, Howard, and Burroughs. But all of Gygax's players loved Tolkien, and demanded he add Tolkien elements to the game, so elves, dwarves, hobbits, ents, and balrogs appeared. But the game was never geared toward reproducing the feel of Tolkien; it just borrowed elements from Tolkien the same way it borrowed elements from everything else. Other elements were added later, including Joe Fischer's ranger class.

Is this the thread: Dungeons as Flowcharts

Make sure you have at least one muscial number. Seriously, singing in dark caves is evocative and creepy.

Stormcrow, thanks for the background note. I was aware of R.E. Howards influence but didn't know about Gygax dislike of Tolkien.

Dionysus, no that isn't the thread. The one I'm thinking of is even more recent, although your search turned up closer to the mark than mine. When I tried the Advanced Google Search, the most recent topic that came up was five years ago. However, Yaks post (#2) in your link is golden.

BTW: there is an error in the link. Here is the address to the thread you pointed to:
http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?524474...s-as-Flowcharts

Skywalker, good advice on the song.