Ok, this is my first new topic, so be gentle guys.
I love the game and have taken quite a keen interest in some of the previous topics, especially the topics regarding Body and Travel and the potential pitfalls within the system.
It then occurred to me to ask about people's perceptions about populations and settlement patterns in Wilderland.
Why, you may ask?
Well, if we accept that only important settlements are shown on the maps then the travel issue can be eased by the judicious placing of smaller settlements along the routes. Of course, this won't be the case on all journeys as certain areas will not be conducive to settlement by the Free peoples.
I would suggest that journeys through the vale of Anduin should find hamlets and shepherds crofts belonging to the Beornings and the Woodmen. The valley of the River Running would have have communities of expatriate Bardings and likewise there might be some few settlements in the Redwater valley.
In short, they could exist almost anywhere in Wilderland, except in Darklands and probably not in Shadowlands.
It then comes down to personal preference of the Loremaster to decide whether to chose s for these settlements or o randomise them. A different post has mooted the idea of boons when the Gandalf rune is rolled on a travel check.
Also, whether the settlement can be regarded as a safe is up to the Loremaster as well and might be based on circumstances. Dol Guldur casts a long shadow, after all and what seems fair may be foul. Also, a lone farmstead may providecsuccour in certain circumstances but not if a horde of orcs are in hot pursuit.
Any thoughts?

I'm just about to make a semi-related post, so this caught my eye.

I would certainly believe that the re-population of the Anduin River valley would include people resettling abandoned farmsteads and hamlets, and perhaps building new ones. I especially envision this happening in the East Anduin Vales between the Woodmen settlements and the river itself The same sort of thing would be happening around Dale and Esgaroth.

Because of their small size and lack of real defenses, I don't envision them being anything more than a more comfortable place to spend the night. Certainly not a sanctuary of any sort.

In reading the books I've tended to garner the idea that the regions that were on the 'map' were inhabited and notable communities. Outside of that it was pretty scarce. Take Bilbo's trek to Rivendell. Outside of the Shire it was pretty sparse in the run to Rivendell. The Fellowship didn't have hamlets to stay in as they trekked from Rivendell through to Gondor/Mordor.

That being said, traditionally you had villages pop up on crossroads and at viable water sources. There would be roadways of sorts, even if old and deserted (you would still have the Greenway and the great East/West road, which one could take a map and dot along to and then pick out places where there could be viable settlements based on water, resources and reason (military outpost, water source, farmland, trading post) and safety (not in the migration path of Orcs say). For Beornings and Woodsmen it would be not just that, but also for hunting grounds, forest they could safely tackle etc. Where along the way might a kind of travelers area be? Probably only at a ford. When you get farther South you'd run into a Gondorian feudal state where you could have remnants of territories governed by (then) nobility, and as the kingdoms were connected you could have intermittent habitations of old defendable manors between there and the Gap of Rohan.

Just thoughts. I saw things as fairly sparse. I'd imagine the Men would be in small, defendable hamlets dotted about but still sparse enough to give the image of isolation.

Tolkiens theme seems to be that the sublte effects of good and evil times are reflected in population size. As a result things are very much depopulated prior to the War of the Ring. MIchael Martinez has some great articles on the population of Middle-earth. http://middle-earth.xenite.org/

Thomas Morwinsky also wrote a nice article on the armies and populations of Eriador throughout the ages.

The traditional view of Middle Earth at the end of the third age is one of general de-population. I think that we are all agreed on this.
It was while I was looking at the tale of years appendix that I noticed the statement that Gilraen returned to her people. For some reason, I had always assumed that the remnant of the Dunedain lived in, or around, Rivendell. This would seem to suggest otherwise. I know that the area between Bree and the last bridge is referred to as the 'Lone Lands' and that Eriador is, in general, regarded as deserted but that single statement and the mystery of where the Dunedain live suggest that it is not entirely uninhabited ,despite the experiences of the fellowship.
Back to the Wilderland though.
It covers a vast area. Tens of thousands of people could dwell there and it would still have vast uninhabited areas. A different post shows that Mirkwood, alone, is as large as the island of Great Britain.
I agree that there probably wouldn't be any settlement larger than a hamlet that is not shown but there could be be scores of these and I don't see why these small, self sufficient, fortified or hidden communities couldn't be regarded as a sanctuary(circumstances dictating). Even a lonely Healers hut could be regarded as a sanctuary if there is no immediate threat unless I am missing the point of what a sanctuary is (in game terms).

I have added a new culture - a group of isolated Northmen occupying the East Bight. They are descendants of the Rohirrim who refused to make the journey to Rohan, and have been living in the shadow of the Necromancer for centuries, defying his power but becoming introverted and suspicious in the process.

Here's my notes: https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1Ou...J59SfwtDc-Mbhvc

Travelling there, the PCs met isolated hamlets dotted along the forest fringes, all guarded with pallisades, thorn hedges or ditches (or all three). These isolated woodsmen know little of the doings in the wider world but manage to eke out a living for their families.

I imagine the Anduin valley is much more populous than Eastern Mirkwood (although still sparely populated by any modern standard), although I would expect civilisation to be found in patches where communities can trade with and support each other.

As the characters in my campaign travel, I expect I shall add other populations in. There is definitely a civilisation in Dorwinion, which I imagine having a Byzantine feel to it and acting as a bulwark against the Easterlings.

There are also probably Northmen settlements near the Iron Hills, and scattered settlements along the River Running, the last remnants of those who serviced the river before the marshes encroached and blocked travel.

Laketown and Dale must have outlying villages and farms to support themselves. And as Dale expands, I expect it will set up colonies in the plains to the east and valleys to the north. I also think Thranduil will send adventurous elves to watch southern Mirkwood in case the shadow diminishes enough to return.

vs

You are right. Specifically this is a great one: Mirkwood

Dorwinion might be an Avari (Dark Elven) realm - we can't really be sure. The name is Sindarin and means "land of the young" - a perfect counterpart to the Irish Tir nanOg, which belongs to the Aos Si (Sidhe).

Thomas Morwinsky wrote a module - originally for ICE, but published online as a free book after they lost the license, on the Inland Sea region (See http://fanmodules.free.fr/Lands%20of%20the.../Inland%20Sea/). But there's sparse canon on that region. The MERP version is that they're a mix of Northmen and Easterlings.

The East Bight is specifically said by Tolkien to be the product of Northman woodcutting, but that's also the rough region where the Balchoth came and attacked the Eothraim. Any re-population would have to have come after them.

A similar problem besets Eriador. A statement in the LotR makes it clear that Bree-land is the only Men-inhabited region within 300 miles (100 leagues) of the Shire. That means any significant village would be on the far side of the Greyflood (the Rangers), around Lond Daer or in Enedhwaith (Dunlanders).

Cheers,
Jeff (former MERP (Lindon) author)

Jeff,
I always pictured the rememant of the Dunedain not of the CHieftains folk as living in Numeriador. Its a logical place to put them after the collpase of Fornost and the people retreated toward the elves of Lindon. Those who didnt go to Gondor after the war would have elven allies close by and a river between them and the open places of northern Eriador. This also provides some people for Aragorn to refound Annuminas in the Fourth Age.
It made sense to me that the household of the Chieftain would live closer to Rivendell in the angle since Elrond is basically the regent and foster father of the Line in the North.

Well, the problem with Duneriador - which is indeed represented - or at least the Lune valley - as the home of the Dunedain in MERP in the later Third Age - is that it falls within the 300 mile radius of the Shire of no major settlements save Bree. There are certainly Dwarves living in that area, however, though not very many.

It's possible some of the Dunedain lived incognito in Bree or Tharbad - the latter before the Fell Winter (2911). But these would have to be essentially assimilated into the local community, and the lack of marrying out would probably be noticed by the ordinary folk.

Given that only 30 men came south in the Grey Company, and these were all that could be spared, the actual number of adults in the Dunedain settlements would have to be in the low hundreds at most. I just think there's too few to justify a separate settlement for the non-combatants. Plus, we'd have to dismiss a pretty clear statement in the LotR.

My guess is that the non-wandering Dunedain masqueraded as Hillmen or Middle Men herding and farming in the Angle. There's no particular reason that Annuminas couldn't have been colonized en-masse by these people. Bree is close by for the initial needs of the rebuilding as well.

Low hundreds I think to be too small to have a sustained population over a long period of time. If you factor in that Halbarad had to increase the watch and patrols to protect the angle and send a nominal contingent of Dunedain to Rivendell as a token force the population is higher. Halbarad only says that he could only gather the 38 men in haste, not that he couldnt have provided more had he had more time, the message being Aragorn needed his kin as soon as possible.

Is it also not possible that Bree was the only known settlement, istead of the only settlement? Bree assuming to mean all the settlements of Bree and not just the town itself. Clearly there is little along the road between the Shire and Rivendell but is the 100 leagues meant as all directions or only in one?

From "At the Sign of the Prancing Pony" (Chapter 9, FotR):

"In those days no other Men had settled dwellings so far west, or within a hundred leagues of the Shire. But in the wild lands beyond Bree there were mysterious wanderers. The Bree-folk called them Rangers, and knew nothing of their origin. They were taller and darker than the Men of Bree and were believed to have strange powers of sight and hearing, and to understand the languages of beasts and birds. They roamed at will southwards, and eastwards even as far as the Misty Mountains; but they were now few and rarely seen. When they appeared they brought news from
afar, and told strange forgotten tales which were eagerly listened to; but the Bree-folk did not make friends of them."

This does tend to rule out dwellings in Duneriador, since "so west" would indicate the the regions of the Lune valley as well - being further west than Bree.

"Beyond Bree" does suggest an eastern direction for the Rangers (NE 100 leagues is Angmar, and SE is Tharbad. Hence due E - Rhudaur - is the best fit.

I think the narrator is omniscient (or at least aware of the facts more than the Hobbits themselves) at this point, which makes it difficult to find a loophole. A Fourth Age narrator, such as from the Red Book, would be well aware of the home of the Rangers.

Having taken a look at my Atlas of Middle Earth by Karen Wynn Fonstat(?), there is a map that shows settlement patterns in NW ME.
There seems to be quite an expansive area along tha River Running where there is sparse 'mannish' settlements. The author doesn't seem to clarify what she means by sparse though. What do you guys think?
I would think that in an area that size, a population in the tens of thousands of people could easily be regarded as a sparse population. Am I thinking in 'too modern' terms?
My own personal thoughts are that the vast majority of the people of the old Kingdom of Dale are living in exile in autonomous settlements along both banks of the River Running. they are not politically tied to each other but have bonds of family and race. Many of these settlements will become depopulated when news of the rebirth of their Kingdom becomes widely known. Those folk who remain will still be subjects of and swear fealty to the King at Dale.

I also consider that there are probably som exiles living among their distant kin in Dorwinion. I like the idea that it may once have been a land of the Avari, but that like the Entwives, they too have simply vanished. The current Dorwinion is a bit like the lands of the Kievan Rus in my take.
A warrior aristocracy of Northman descent, lords over an Easterling population. The major difference is the preponderance of Elvish sites and ruins on the western shore of the sea of Rhun.

I think it is worth mentioning that one of the reason that the Fellowship stayed on the Western side of the Misty Mountains and in Eregion when they left Rivendell was to avoid populated areas. This could indicate that the Anduin River Valley was at least somewhat populated. Also when Strider and the Hobbits left Bree they were purposefully avoiding population areas on the way to Rivendell.

In the game I am running the Anduin River Valley is populated with tribes of Northmen and the area around Laketown and Dale are experiencing increased commerce particularly along the River Running. In the Hobbit I remember the Men of Laketown being described as tradesmen and merchants. That would imply they traded with someone other than just the Elves of Mirkwood.

Part of the theme of my campaign is the increasing prosperity of the area and the re-opening of trade since the defeat of Dol Goldur and the death of Smaug. Of course the return of the enemy will reverse much of the progress in the south and west of this region, but the people there see this as a time of prosperity.

Indeed, the Wines of Dorwinion - at the Sea of Rhun - are specifically traded to the Elven King via the Long Lake.

Also the resurgence of Dwarven settlements in the area means the Dwarves will be buying food and timber for their mines and halls from the local Men.

43 years after the current game year also sees an attempted recolonization of Moria, so I'd expect the Dwarves, to feel ambitious enough to attempt it, would have allies among the local Anduin peoples already in place.

'a host of allies of Sauron that had long threatened the Borders of King Brand crossed the River Carnen and Brand was driven back to Dale.'
I have been thinking about this line in Appendix B of Return of the King and I believe that this indicates that the Kingdom of Dale has expanded to the River Carnen by 3019, else why would Brand choose to fight the Easterlings so far away from his stronghold. I would suggest that trade is brisk between the Iron Hills and Dorwinion along the Carnen and that there are a number of large, wealthy Barding settlements in the Redwater valley by 3019.
I would suggest that these settlements were wealthy enough for Brand to risk contesting the crossing of the Carnen despite the numerical superiority of the foe and despite the fact that his force is likely to have contained few horsemen and thus be at a considerable disadvantage against their more mobile enemies should they fail.
It is also possible, I suppose, that a Heroic figure like Brand might have decided to face his foes far from his home in order to give refugees time to escape the encroaching forces of the enemy.

Jeff,
Yeah I see where you are going. I am going to have to dig deeper into this. If I remember correctly though Bree is made up of three different villages isnt it?

The quote to me does seem to stem from a Breelanders perspective and may not be as informed of whats going on as we assume. A more omnicient speaker would speak with more authority and accuracy on the Dunedain. I'll poke around somemore.

A look at the chapters The Great River and The Breaking of the Fellowship will reveal information regarding the use of the Anduin for travel and trade past and present. Faramir also gives some additional insight later.

Regarding King Brand, yeah, he had an eastern border (southern not specified) where he was seemingly assaulted by the armies massing for war as described in The Council of Elrond. So my guess is that R. Carnen was crossed and the actual assault came from the direction of the Iron Hills where the massed armies were perhaps pulling double duty in threatening King Brand and the Iron Hill dwarves.

Bree-land is made up of four villages not three. Bree, Staddle, Combe and Archet along with assorted fields and tamed woodlands.

Edge of the Wild was not specifically mentioned in your post, just Wilderland, but The Hobbit does give an indication that it may have been somewhat populous there as well. The Trolls had munched upon enough people as to constitute a village and a half since coming down from the mountains.
A difficult feat if it was only sparsely populated. It seems the further west they went the less populous it became. The presence of sheep indicates that the region there was also populated, but less so as man-flesh was scarce and mutton (fattened by husbandry of the locals is the supposition) had to suffice.

I believe the 30 or so Rangers mentioned are from an obscure document in Marquette University regarding the number and of the Rangers and their people. They were specifically mentioned as based in the Angle.
Not truly important, but if you were curious as to where the information originated...

That's interesting. Who do you think that these people were, that the Trolls had devoured since coming down from the mountains? Dunedain,Northmen or a remnant of the old Hill people?

Dunno!

All the above? None or some of the above?
Dunlendings? Pre-Bree-landers? Hard to say.

What is known is that traffic on the east-road to Bree-land was fairly regular until recently and not just by dwarves although they were the most prominent.

Regarding Bree-land: certainly there was traffic from the south as well, strange though it may be, but seemingly few if any travellers from the north considering Barliman's statements. There was even infrequent traffic from the Shire.

As for the east side of the Misty Mountains near Goblin-gate:
"You are still some miles North of the path which we should have been following, if we had not left the mountain pass in a hurry. Very few people live in these parts, unless they have come here since I was last this way, which is some years ago."

So there were people there as well, just not in great numbers.

Back to the Edge of the Wild:
"Then they came to lands where people spoke strangely, and sang songs Bilbo had never heard before. Now they had gone on far into the Lone-lands, where there were no people left, no Inns, and the roads grew steadily worse."

Lands where people spoke strangely is most likely Bree-land. Beyond that is the Lone-lands. Beyond that would be the people the Trolls munched on--still before crossing the mountains, as they did so after coming down from them.

Yet further still:
"These parts are none too well known, and are too near the mountains. Travellers seldom come this way now."

So where were the munchables from? Not travellers, or not enough in numbers to consist of a village and a half so they must have been small farming communities or small hamlets most likely. Of what composition isn't said.

Perhaps this sums it up best:
"There were probably many more Outsiders scattered about in the West of Middle-earth in those days than the people of the Shire imagined. Some, doubtless, were no better than tramps, ready to dig a hole in any bank and stay only as long as it suited them."

Well, the Trollshaws are not too distant from the lower Gwathlo/Greyflood, where we know there were people as recent as the Fell Winter. I suspect rather that there still were at the time of the Hobbit.

We also have found - from The History of the Hobbit - that the Forsaken Inn was abandoned just prior to the Hobbit (enough that the Dwarves didn't know). I've been looking over the timeline, and I suspect that East-West trade was recently disrupted, and we might be looking at an obscure indication of the revival of Goblin-gate. But the Inn remained abandoned at the time of the War of the Ring, so we don't know that for sure.

I'm still of a mind that the Angle people and their herds - attacked by Trolls - were the Dunedain. We see in the history of the Dunedain Chieftains that Aragorn's grandfather was killed fighting trolls, meaning they were definitely in contact with the monsters - they might even be the same trolls... Herding sheep is what I would expect the Dunedain would be doing, in fact, since the herds can move while farms cannot, and they are less obtrusive and high maintenance than cattle. A flock of sheep and some shepherds could range into the Lone-lands without contradicting the 100 leagues statement; so could tinkers, trappers, and other 'cover stories.' The Angle would remaining a wintering ground.

There are a number of further reasons for the Angle. Re-reading all the discussion on the internet has indicated some more support for the idea. The 30 Dunedain that came south were told by Elrond - who stays put in Rivendell - about the situation and of Aragorn. Since they were gathered in haste, they would have been plucked from nearby.

The Angle is also an excellent for defending Eriador. All the potential threats to Bree-land and the Shire - their protectorate - are coming from the East - the Orcs of Gundabad and Gram from the NE, the Orcs of Goblin-gate from the E, and the Dunlendings from the SE. Coupled with proximity to Rivendell for healing and the safety of the heir, this means the Dunedain, even few in number, can strike out against these threats rapidly.

Hey Voidstate, I was just looking at your stuff about the Bight. It looks pretty good man. Only one thing though, I think that Athelingas would translate as 'the Prince's men'. IIRC, Merp had a settlement in that area called Strayhold. Perhaps that might be the ruin that the main settlement is built upon.

Jefferwin, a very well considered response. I too am of the opinion that the people referred to are Dunedain.
Another quick question. What is the approximate area, in square kilometres, of the angle? I am thinking that it is just marginally smaller than Wales. I am thinking that a lot more than 3000 folk could lose themselves from sight in an area that large, if they were actively avoiding contact.

I agree.

The Angle is a triangle 150 miles by 100 miles by 75 miles, more or less. That's 5,625 square miles. Wales is over 8,000 square miles. So we're talking North Wales.

Wales, a predominately rural and pastoral society at the time, is thought to have had 150,000 people around 1066. 3,000 people could easily hide out in the region, though perhaps divided among a few villages. This is particularly likely since Bree probably had a few thousand people and was well known.

If the Dunedain dress like the Hillmen of Dunland and dwell away from the Great East Road, then no-one would notice.

Thanks for the info on the Forsaken Inn Jefferwin.

I've had a gang of "...bad men, full o'thievery and mischief" (to quote Barliman - smugglers working with the Ruffians) using the place as a secret refuge for many game sessions over the years, only to discover from your post that Tolkien had the place deserted at the time of the War of the Ring. Duh! .

Well, we learn as we go...

I'm glad you said something & I'm back to the drawing board LOL

I have been thinking about the communities of Bardings in the Celduin valley for my upcoming game. I was wondering if someone at C7 would mind confirming whether there are any adventures in this vicinity planned for Tales of the Wilderland.?

I hope I'm not asking for too much but confirmation of whether this region is to be expanded upon in any planned releases would be of great help to me.

A la peanut butter sandwiches........


There we go, one thread raised from the dead.


@ Khamul, the link is midway down page 1.

Reading this thread it strikes me again how odd it is that people take William literally at his "eaten a village and a half between you". I am certain the troll is merely reminding his companions that they have in fact eaten plenty of man-flesh.

The troll's cave does contain bread, cheese, bacon and barrels of beer as well as the clothes of victims. Trolls aren't cooks beyond toasting mutton on sticks over a fire, so obviously this was pillaged from someone else.

Again, people, yes, but how many is uncertain.

I guess when Tolkien talks about a village he means a village and not a hamlet. And a villige contains of a population from a couple of hundreds to some thousands.

The Wargs are to meet the goblins to raid villages (multiples) close to the Misty Mountains.

so there must be thousands of people living in villages and hamlets I guess.

This is a fun calculator
http://www.rpglibrary.org/utils/meddemog/

Thank you