In our last game, the PCs were fleeing from an orcish warband. While debating amongst themselves if they should keep going into the night to try to maintain some distance, the issue of "darkvision" (à la D&D) came up.

I know that Elves are described as having a more acute vision than other races. There are many examples of this during Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas's trek across Rohan.

From the quotes above, it seems pretty clear to me that none of the Free People can see during a moonless night. Having said that...

1) How about with a Moon? I guess Men and Hobbits would be pretty much similar to us in the "real world", but would Elves or Dwarves see better than that?

2) Do Orcs see during moonless night? If so, do they see as well as Men during the day? As well as Elves?

There's the trait, Keen-eyed, which indicates better vision. One of my players has this with his elf and uses it in the sort of situations as quoted above. Another has Quick of Hearing. Both the traits aid in situations that make use of the Perception skills.

Elves can see better in the dark using their Folk of the Dusk cultural trait. They can add their favoured attribute scores to Perception tests at night.

IIRC, Elves can see in starlight as well as Men can in full daylight. But they still need some light source. Dwarves may be able to see fairly well in the dark, but may also need some source of light.

In The Two Towers, Legolas and Gimli may have better night vision than Aragorn, but Aragorn is the one with the skill in tracking. So he needed to be able to see the tracks.

Orcs probably see better at night, and sunlight may have been too bright for most of them. The Uruk-hai were able to operate in daylight, but they hated to do so. However, they were deep in enemy territory, and they were trying to return to Isengard with the Hobbits without running into the Rohirrim. So they just had to chance it.

If you haven't seen it already, this earlier thread may be of interest:

http://cubicle7.clicdev.com/f/index.php?tr...&showtopic=3961

Thanks for the answers, especially for the reference to the previous thread!

I'm a little pissed off that I missed that thread when looking through the forum during our game; but on the other hand a game session is perhaps not the best circumstance to go fishing for info...

From the info here and in the other thread, I'll postulate the following for my game; let me know what you think!

*Humans and Hobbits have "normal sight", i.e. they see clearly during the day, can see fairly well for a shorter distance under an unobstructed (not in a forest or with heavy clouding) half- or full moon, cannot see much farther than a foot or two under the light of the stars, and see nothing in complete darkness.

*Elves see clearly during the day and under a full moon (I don't think obstruction as defined above would matter to Elves), can see fairly well for a shorter distance under the light of the stars, and see nothing in complete darkness.

*Dwarves are similar to Elves.

*Creatures with the Hate Sunlight special ability are somewhat dazzled during the day and thus see fairly well but for a shorter distance.

*Creatures with the Denizens of the Dark special ability have normal sight in darkness (complete or under stars / moon).

-> Should creatures that have both Hate Sunlight and Denizens of the Dark be completely blind under the Sun?

In a related matter that's mentionned in the other thread, would you consider experiencing utter darkness (like an underground complex à la Goblin Town or Moria) a source of stress important enough to warrant a Corruption Test (see Anguish)? I think it would be logical enough, and I would require such a roll from all PCs except Dwarves.

I wouldn't make them completely blind under the Sun, but give them significant penalties to all the tasks they attempt. They can still see, but the glare hurts their eyes.

agreed. i believe these traits already have negative impact on them mechanically.

Gollum would have had the following perhaps;


.

And...

Gollum is Smeagol, a Hobbit-kin. It could be argued it was an effect of the Ring, but Gollum did not have it, it was in Bilbo's pocket at the time.
Maybe it was a lingering effect of the Ring.

Or.. It might have evolved, or more likely it might have been a regressed genetic trait that re-emerged after so long in dark places.
Hobbits are tunnelers that live underground as is their nature.
Maybe in their distant past they were Denizens of the Dark

Gollum would have had the following TOR ability perhaps;

This is from "Riddles in the Dark"

And...

Gollum is Smeagol, a Stoors Hobbit.

It could be argued it was an effect of the Ring, but Gollum did not have it, it was in Bilbo's pocket at the time.

Maybe the vision was a lingering effect of the Ring?
He rarely interacted with it at all though except for donning it to go hunting goblins.

Or..perhaps the vision might have evolved, or more likely it might have been a regressed genetic trait that re-emerged after Smeagol dwelt for so long in dark places. Hobbits are tunnelers that live underground as is their nature.

This is from "Riddles in the Dark"

And also...

The oddest part of it all is that perhaps Gollum's eyes are bioluminescent?

Bilbo could even see the glow on the walls of the cavern. Bioluminescence is a natural phenomena.

But thats not all that was enhanced,

In "Riddles in the Dark" as we learn about Gollum we learn much about Hobbits.
Maybe in their distant past Hobbits were Denizens of the Dark

Just a thought

The "problem" with using Keen-Eyed and Quick of Hearing is that traits grant automatic success (where other characters have good chances of succeeding), while in the book, Elves (Legolas) seem to be able to perceive things that other characters cannot (or in game terms, with a TN too high for others to succeed).

In other words, traits do not give better chances of succeeding difficult things; it guaranties success of relatively easy tests. So technically, Keen eyed would not have helped Legolas in previous examples (but it likely gave him an advancement point!).

Traits can also give a player a chance to roll a test is situations where other players would not get a roll. (adventure's book page 95 under Unforseen Action, top left corner of the page)

Unforseen Action
Sometimes the Loremaster may decide that a situation
doesn’t allow a skill roll at all, due to events or factors
out of the players’ control. A player may invoke one of
his Traits if he believes it should allow him a chance to
intervene.
If the invocation is judged favourably, the Loremaster
interrupts the narration to allow a standard action
attempt.

After a short but fierce battle outside the gates
of Mount Gram, Katherine, the Loremaster,
is telling her players how a sneaky Goblin is
escaping the battlefield after being left for dead
and ignored. She rules that the Goblin is too far
away for the players to intervene. Hugo, whose
Dwarf is ‘cautious,’ says that Fíli was certainly
keeping an eye on the wounded, exactly to
avoid this problem. The group agrees, and the
Loremaster lets Hugo test Fili’s Awareness skill
to see if he observed the Goblin in time.

Something else I just ran across, in The Hobbit, Flies and Spiders, the company enters Mirkwood where it is very dark and after a few days comes to a river and Bilbo sees a boat the dwarves cannot see...

I would handle it narratively, with traits like Keen Eyed giving a character exceptionally good vision based on the normal standard for their race. And then obviously Elves have Folk of the Dusk, which explicitly makes them better than anyone else while in the dark.

Personally, I've always thought that it makes sense for Dwarves to have darkvision. I mean, they LIVE underground, and if their only light source is some kind of flame source then what do they do if the flame burns out? Darkvision might not make much sense biologically (at least not if we're talking about seeing with eyes), but being a fantasy race I can look past that.

You could make the same argument for Hobbits, who live in holes. Not all of the rooms in a Hobbit hole will have windows (only those on the front or side end of a hill), so at the very least they would be used to seeing in rather dim light. Perhaps their vision isn't as keen as an Elf of Mirkwood's, but I'd wager they're better in low light conditions than your average Man.

Regarding that passage about Bilbo having the sharpest eyes among the company, maybe Dwarves can see in the dark but have overall sub-par vision? Like they're nearsighted, or have limited color vision, which are a bit of a handicap in normal or even dim light but they make up for it by being able to see in total darkness?

Or maybe Dwarves can't see in the dark, or very well in any lighting, but they rely on an extremely well-developed sense of direction? Essentially a very sophisticated spatial memory.