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Cavallo |
Posted: Sep 14 2011, 07:17 PM
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Group: Members Posts: 6 Member No.: 1914 Joined: 12-September 11 |
For my next session I might need stats for Nazgul. I hope our heroes try to avoid direct confrontation but I would rather be prepared. Can any of you have a look at what I did with ringwraiths in ToR? Feel free to comment and fix whatever need to be fixed. I'm quite new to the game and my version might be just plain silly.
Attribute level 8 Endurance: 60 Hate: 10 Parry: 6 Armour: 3d Personality 4 Movement 2 Perception 4 Survival 1 Custom 1 Vocation 3 Swords 4 Strike Fear, Thing of Terror, Hideous Toughness, Hate Sunlight, Fear of Fire and Water, Commanding Voice; also Wraithform Wraithform: if Nazgul dont wear robes or armour is almost invisible; heroes need to pass test of Awareness to spot him You cant kill Nazgul as long as the One Ring exist; defeated ringwraith will recover his Endurance with double speed Nazgul has -2 to all rolls during day; -4 to all rolls when in direct sunlight I'm thinking about customizing my Nazgul giving him various Dreadful Spells as well. What do you think? To weak, to strong? Anything is not covered? Oh, btw, I'm thinking of giving him Called Shot with sword causing "poison", similar to one orcs have but maybe harder to heal. |
Skywalker |
Posted: Sep 14 2011, 11:41 PM
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Group: Members Posts: 800 Member No.: 46 Joined: 24-September 07 |
Nazgul would seem to me to be at least Attribute 9 or 10.
A lot of the stats seems on the low side for a Nazgul. Parry and Endurance seem especially low. -------------------- There is nothing like looking, if you want to find something. ... You certainly usually find something if you look, but it is not always quite the something you were after."
- Thorin Oakenshield |
Alric |
Posted: Sep 15 2011, 12:11 AM
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Group: Members Posts: 20 Member No.: 1760 Joined: 6-August 11 |
The Nazgul are verging on the level of "Plot Point". I would personally hesitate to give them stats at all. Given the power levels of the game PCs shouldn't be able to destroy a Nazgul and shouldn't have much chance against one in a stand up fight.
The Nazguls are threats to be avoided and hidden from. Speaking of Nazgul, are you familiar with ICE's take on them? I liked that they made one of the nine to be female. |
Skywalker |
Posted: Sep 15 2011, 01:14 AM
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Group: Members Posts: 800 Member No.: 46 Joined: 24-September 07 |
A Nazgirl? -------------------- There is nothing like looking, if you want to find something. ... You certainly usually find something if you look, but it is not always quite the something you were after."
- Thorin Oakenshield |
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Alric |
Posted: Sep 15 2011, 01:28 AM
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Group: Members Posts: 20 Member No.: 1760 Joined: 6-August 11 |
A Nazgoil (to rhyme with coil). |
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Cavallo |
Posted: Sep 15 2011, 04:19 AM
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Group: Members Posts: 6 Member No.: 1914 Joined: 12-September 11 |
Using him as a plot point was my intention from the start but you never know with players. But you're right, I should boost some of his stats. I also would like to see heroes fight with him at some point in the future so I would rather see him as a "boss" battle near the end of campaing. So parry need to go up in the first place to make him impossible to kill by begining characters. And Endurance up to maybe 80 or even 100 might be good idea. Attribute level could be 9.
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Francesco |
Posted: Sep 15 2011, 05:02 AM
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Group: Playtesters Posts: 256 Member No.: 864 Joined: 22-January 10 |
An interesting thing to consider with the Nazgul is how powerful they are at the time of our default campaign - TA 2946 - and how do they look. In his letters Tolkien explained the difference between the perceived threat posed by the Nazgul at the time of their 'Quest for the Ring' in the Shire and later during the War of the Ring. The Witch-king in particular is said to have been 'raised to a new demonic stature' when he enters the fray at the Pelennor on his winged mount, but the same could be considered for all the Ringwraiths.
In any case, several features are evident: the Nazgul are more powerful when it is dark, they are more powerful together - especially at the presence of their leader, and their capabilities seem to grow with the increase of the power in Mordor. This various elements are useful to explain the modus operandi of the Ringwraiths in Bree and their performance against Strider at Weathertop. Considering all this, I wouldn't see it a bad idea to have a sort of less powered manifestation of the Ringwraiths going about at the time of our game - more 'incorporeal', and relying much more on fear than anything else. Francesco |
Rapscallion |
Posted: Sep 15 2011, 05:08 AM
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Group: Members Posts: 37 Member No.: 1764 Joined: 6-August 11 |
I don't find this inappropriate, and was wondering about their lack of entry in the adversary section myself, seeing as Khamul was placed in charge of Dol Guldur around this part of the Third Age.
The Nine are quite potent, but I wouldn't place them in the realm of being totally impossible for a man to best in battle (except The Witch King, of course) provided the brave (foolish?) soul possesses an enchanted/powerful weapon (such as one obtained through a Cultural Reward), plenty of fire, lots of mettle, and luck. The Nazguls' physical form can be stricken down, but they will reform (this is, in effect, one of their most powerful abilities besides fear), for which I see you've already accounted. I was under the impression though that when they were defeated, the Nazgul reformed at a Shadow where Sauron held power (ie. Angmar, Mordor, Dol Guldur, etc.), much in the same way as their Master, himself does when physically defeated. I could be mistaken though. For a little perspective, you can turn to the words of the Professor, himself. The fear they inspired was The Nine's chief danger: "They have no great physical power against the fearless," he wrote, "but what they have, and the fear that they inspire, is enormously increased in darkness" (Letters, 210) One trait you're definitely missing is the Nazgul's Black Breath. This would be the most terrifying power coming from a player perspective, as it had a lingering effect that could cause almost any victory over The Nine to be Pyrrhic at best. Also, watch out for that Morgul blade! It's a nice tool the Nazgul use to recruit would-be heroes into the ranks of the Dark Lord. In my opinion, one of the fastest ways to retire a character would be to fight a Nazgul. This may prove interesting, as this character could serve as an example to generations(and player-heroes)-to-come why you don't tussle with a Ringwraith. They are definitely the nine most dangerous tools Sauron has available, and they should be portrayed as such. I'd also ask for Shadow-Lore trait checks to determine Nazgul vulnerabilities, as few engage them and live to tell the tale. -------------------- Ash nazg durbatulūk...
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Tolwen |
Posted: Sep 15 2011, 01:52 PM
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Group: Members Posts: 430 Member No.: 862 Joined: 21-January 10 |
Francesco is definitely right IMO. The strength and abilities of the Nazgūl (as far as they can be represented by game mechanics) are variable. The best approach would be to define their *maximum* abilities (e.g. under optimal conditions for them) and then judge their penalties under various different conditions and timeframes (e.g. the default TOR campaign time Francesco mentioned). The following parameters are IMO important in judging a Nazgūl's strength:
Concerning their performance on Weathertop it is very likely not a defeat brought upon them by Aragorn (without diminishing his power, but that would be far beyond his abilities), but that they accomplished their mission (wounding the Ringbearer with the Morgul blade) and just to make sure he wouldn't escape them before becoming a wraith. This is IMO the main reason they did not press home their attack. Best Tolwen -------------------- Visit Other Minds - a free international journal devoted to roleplaying and scholarly interests in J.R.R. Tolkien's works
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daddystabz |
Posted: Sep 15 2011, 02:54 PM
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Group: Members Posts: 109 Member No.: 1281 Joined: 5-October 10 |
Nazgul.....bah! All you need for those wimps is Aragorn with a torch!
And as to the term "nazgirl" I think it describes my ex-girlfriend perfectly. |
Arandil |
Posted: Sep 18 2011, 08:46 PM
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Group: Members Posts: 42 Member No.: 1739 Joined: 3-August 11 |
Good observatons here. Keep in mind that the 'physical form' of a Nazgul is really just a spell. When attacking a Nazgul's 'form' you're really attacking this spell. Fire is the most effective weapon vs this spell. Mundane weapons would have little effect, on their own. Weapons enchanted as a bane to fell spirits, like the Nazgul, are better.
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Throrsgold |
Posted: Nov 16 2011, 05:14 PM
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Group: Members Posts: 295 Member No.: 2128 Joined: 9-November 11 |
Thinking that I might need an appearance of a Nazgūl, I relished seeing this thread. After reading it, I find myself wondering ... how did it go? Too, referencing the Strike Fear and Thing of Terror Special Abilities, what TN did you use, Cavallo? I find the default 14 to be too low, regardless of time periods in the Third Age. I'd probably go with an 18 for the default TOR time period and a 20 during the War of the Ring. Of course, I could be convinced to back off by 2 in each with the appropriate reasoning ... but not lower. Also, did you give your Nazgūl Dreadful Spells as mentioned? If so, what did you decide to use? I'd suggest some sort of Weaponbane (nonmagical weapons striking a Nazgūl automatically shatter and/or break), some sort of a Freezing Touch (touching or being touched causes some sort of damage), and something to emulate the dreaded Black Breath (a cloud of noxious, evil mist that causes victims to become nauseated and fall into an unbreakable slumber for a number of days ... they can only be awakened by something to break enchantments or more powerful magic or, of course, athelas administered by an ordained lord). Regarding the Called Shot with Sword, did you go with the poison? To what end? A suggestion ... a Dagger Called Shot to emulate a Morgul Blade. I don't know how I'd stat it, but it should work like this ... on a Called Shot the Morgul Blade breaks, and a sliver of it stays in the wound, moving slowly and inexorably toward the victim's heart. The victim is sickened and falls into feverish unconsciousness which lasts until successfully treated. Each day, the victim needs to make some sort of a check or lose a Body? When Body gets to 0, the victim dies, and rises as a wraith enslaved to the Shadow a number of days later. Treating the taint of a Morgul Blade should require some hefty healing, too. -------------------- My TOR Resources:
| Using Your Own Dice | Names of Middle-earth | New Adversaries v1.0 | -------------------- President/Owner of Bardic Tales, Inc. LotRO Contact Info Server: Elendilmir Kinship: Cuivet Pelin Annun Character(s): Alcaril, Isenhewer, Necry and Toland |
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Mim |
Posted: Nov 16 2011, 06:51 PM
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Group: Members Posts: 372 Member No.: 2116 Joined: 7-November 11 |
I suspect that Cubicle 7 will include a Nazgūl, perhaps Khamūl the Easterling, in Tales from Wilderland, for the very reason that Rapscallion so aptly states (hint, hint, Cubicle 7 ).
On the flip side, however, they may not be able to identify him by name because it falls outside their license - Unifinished Tales, etc. Concerning the other posts about compiling stats for the Nazgūl, I also hesitate for the same reasons - they should be all nigh invincible for heroes, no matter how high your heroes rise. We need to remember canon & game balance, & if your heroes can defeat a Ringwraith, you'll wreak havoc with the books. That said, however, your PCs can always somehow flee from one or drive it off, though it's still a bit of a push IMHO. That said, I like your write-up Throrsgold & you've done a great job, except for the Morgul-knife. Are you planning on having any of your nine nasties wield them, or just the Witch-king himself? |
Throrsgold |
Posted: Nov 16 2011, 07:22 PM
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Group: Members Posts: 295 Member No.: 2128 Joined: 9-November 11 |
My use of a Nazgūl would be because one might be hunting the group for what they are carrying (I am basing my campaign on The Fellowship of the Spear by Ken Walton in Hall of Fire #22 ... found at http://halloffire.org/wp-content/uploads/2...07/Issue-22.pdf ). At one point, the possibility exists that they could encounter a Nazgūl (i.e., the text reads ... "While camping in the ruins of Tharbad, they are first stalked by a Nazgūl. If they confront it openly, they may be in serious trouble. To save them if they cant escape, send in a party of wandering Noldor or possibly Gandalf."). Now, I am fully aware that the player-heroes will NOT be able to cope with an actual Nazgūl confrontation. I fully intend to send in a party of wandering Noldor or possibly Gandalf to save them IF they're so foolish to do anything but stealthily flee ... eluding pursuit by virtue of crossing some running water and making it to Moria's West Gate before ever SEEING the Nazgūl. BUT, I would rather have the stats and not need them than need them and not have them. Regarding the Morgul Blade, it is my impression that each Nazgūl carries such a blade. I just hope never to use it on the player-heroes. Based on the name, though, I could envision it only being wielded by the Witch-king, too. I invite further commentary. -------------------- My TOR Resources:
| Using Your Own Dice | Names of Middle-earth | New Adversaries v1.0 | -------------------- President/Owner of Bardic Tales, Inc. LotRO Contact Info Server: Elendilmir Kinship: Cuivet Pelin Annun Character(s): Alcaril, Isenhewer, Necry and Toland |
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Stormcrow |
Posted: Nov 17 2011, 02:58 AM
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Group: Members Posts: 137 Member No.: 2108 Joined: 4-November 11 |
The Witch-king was trying to stab Frodo in the heart. If he had succeeded, Frodo would have become a wraith immediately. But because Frodo resisted him, and fought back, the blade only struck Frodo's shoulder, and the sliver had to work its way inward. And everyone who understood such things were surprised at how long it took before Frodo succumbed. In other words, the effect it had on Frodo was unusual. It's supposed to have an immediate effect, or a swift one. It's not supposed to take two weeks to make the victim into a wraith. Clearly this blade wasn't unique to the Witch-king, as Aragorn, Glorfindel, and Elrond were all familiar with their effects. |
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Mim |
Posted: Nov 17 2011, 09:05 AM
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Group: Members Posts: 372 Member No.: 2116 Joined: 7-November 11 |
Throrsgold, Stormcrow,
You've answered my question concerning the use of the Morgul-knife. I've often wondered about providing them to all of the Nazgūl, & you raise a valid point about the familiarity of Aragorn, Glorfindel, & Elrond. Now that you've eased my hesitation, I'll provide the blades (plural now!) to the heavies... Throrsgold, you have a good story worked out here, & I think your players will have fun having their hearts stop when they realize what they're up against . |