Powered by Invision Power Board


  Reply to this topicStart new topicStart Poll

> Structural Patterns In The Hobbit, Food for the Loremaster
JamesRBrown
Posted: May 1 2012, 05:02 PM
Report PostQuote Post





Group: TOR index group
Posts: 616
Member No.: 1729
Joined: 31-July 11



I am in the middle of reading Twayne's Masterwork Studies, The Hobbit: A Journey into Maturity. In chapter 6, William H. Green (the author) writes about five parallel parts, five component tales he can see in The Hobbit as Bilbo moves from the Hill to the Mountain and back again. There is even a nice chart included to illustrate his points. I think this information could be very useful to any Loremaster desiring to create and narrate adventures of his own.

Here is a quote:

In each of the five parts Bilbo sets out from a homelike refuge, is opposed by monstrous foes, is saved by a eucatasrophe ("a sudden joyous turn"), and then arrives at another homelike refuge. In each component tale he faces the foes in tunnel-like darkness after touching or passing over a body of water. The foes are deadly, but, oddly, they do not immediately kill their victims. Rather, they trap victims in bags or blind tunnels, to starve or be eaten later. Food is the theme sounding constantly under the narrative, like a drone string, the cycle of hunger and gratification. And there is always a lack of good food associated with Bilbo's perils--almost as if as long as there is an ample supply of delicious food, no monsters can come near. The hospitable homes that end each component tale, arrived at after passage over a second body of water, offer resupply of food. In each of these refuges, or Homely Houses, a host sets retrospectively the tone of the component tale, reflects the type of perils that have been overcome, and sets the next component tale into motion.


--------------------
Please visit my blog, Advancement Points: The One Ring Files, for my TOR Resources
Mini ProfilePMEmail Poster
Top
Throrsgold
Posted: May 1 2012, 05:33 PM
Report PostQuote Post





Group: Members
Posts: 295
Member No.: 2128
Joined: 9-November 11



QUOTE (JamesRBrown @ May 1 2012, 09:02 PM)
And there is always a lack of good food associated with Bilbo's perils--almost as if as long as there is an ample supply of delicious food, no monsters can come near.

Interesting observation. If this was actually Tolkien's intent, I wonder if the (probably unconcious) theme comes from Depression-era living? Plenty of food = security?


--------------------
My TOR Resources:
| Using Your Own Dice | Names of Middle-earth | New Adversaries v1.0 |

--------------------
President/Owner of Bardic Tales, Inc.

LotRO Contact Info
Server: Elendilmir
Kinship: Cuivet Pelin Annun
Character(s): Alcaril, Isenhewer, Necry and Toland
Mini ProfilePMEmail PosterUsers Website
Top
Garn
Posted: May 1 2012, 05:42 PM
Report PostDelete PostEdit PostQuote Post





Group: Members
Posts: 938
Member No.: 2432
Joined: 10-February 12



The book sounds interesting. I will have to add it to my wish list.

Strangely I may have unconsciously caught the edge of the food availability theme in my definition of a Safe Place in the Getting Better, Resting on the Road topic. Although I abbreviated it to being treated as a guest in subsequent editing to strengthen the carefree, "no work, all play" aspect. But as to the lack of food... I just assumed hunger drove them to foolishness. As per Thorin & Co leaving the elf path in Mirkwood to seek out the campfires in search of food & water.

But I had not noticed the proclivity for bodies of water at all.


--------------------
Garn!
I have yet to read the books thoroughly.
Mini ProfilePMEmail Poster
Top
Brooke
Posted: May 1 2012, 06:41 PM
Report PostQuote Post





Group: Members
Posts: 230
Member No.: 2544
Joined: 21-March 12



QUOTE (Throrsgold @ May 1 2012, 09:33 PM)
QUOTE (JamesRBrown @ May 1 2012, 09:02 PM)
And there is always a lack of good food associated with Bilbo's perils--almost as if as long as there is an ample supply of delicious food, no monsters can come near.

Interesting observation. If this was actually Tolkien's intent, I wonder if the (probably unconcious) theme comes from Depression-era living? Plenty of food = security?

Deprivation is a major theme in both The Hobbit and LoTR. I wonder, though, if it mightn't come more from Tolkien's experiences in WWI.
Mini ProfilePMEmail Poster
Top
Glorfindel
Posted: May 1 2012, 07:14 PM
Report PostQuote Post





Group: Members
Posts: 267
Member No.: 2208
Joined: 6-December 11



QUOTE (Garn @ May 1 2012, 05:42 PM)
But I had not noticed the proclivity for bodies of water at all.

Neither did I.

I made the connection with food and morale before, but the cyclical path/river/sanctuary pattern is new to me. Interesting...
Mini ProfilePMEmail Poster
Top
JamesRBrown
Posted: May 1 2012, 07:45 PM
Report PostQuote Post





Group: TOR index group
Posts: 616
Member No.: 1729
Joined: 31-July 11



I just realized I spelled eucatastrophe incorrectly above.

Here is the breakdown of the five component tales:

Part 1 - Chapters 1-3
Part 2 - Chapters 4-7
Part 3 - Chapters 8-10
Part 4 - Chapters 11-14
Part 5 - Chapters 15-19

Each part includes Foes, a Savior, dark Places of Peril, Water into Peril, Water out of Peril, a Homely House with a Host, a Prize, and Baggings (or bindings); e.g. Part 1 - Foes (Trolls); Savior (Gandalf); Places of Peril (Dark under trees); Water into Peril (Bridge at Edge of Wild); Water out of Peril (Bridge at Rivendell); Homely House with a Host (Rivendell, Elrond); Prize (Sword); and Baggings (Troll Bags).

Someday, I am going to try and write my own short adventure using the same structure. I enjoy the use of Tolkien's eucatastrophe, which, by the way, is also used in Words of the Wise when Rhadagast appears at the end of The Battle of Woodland Hall. In criticism of my own campaign outline, The Hunting of the Wolves, it was pointed out that I originally had too much of a deus ex machina ending, so I amended it slightly. However, it was Tolkien's use of eucatastrophe that inspired me in the first place. Which brings up the question: Should players of The One Ring Roleplaying Game have different expectations than players of other games? Shouldn't they be delighted to have happy endings and sudden joyous turns? Shouldn't the perils be so great that even the main characters sometimes need rescuing?


--------------------
Please visit my blog, Advancement Points: The One Ring Files, for my TOR Resources
Mini ProfilePMEmail Poster
Top
Garn
Posted: May 2 2012, 03:14 AM
Report PostDelete PostEdit PostQuote Post





Group: Members
Posts: 938
Member No.: 2432
Joined: 10-February 12



QUOTE (JamesRBrown @ May 1 2012, 07:45 PM)
Should players of The One Ring Roleplaying Game have different expectations than players of other games? Shouldn't they be delighted to have happy endings and sudden joyous turns? Shouldn't the perils be so great that even the main characters sometimes need rescuing?


In answer to your questions, respectively: No... well, maybe, see below. Yes. Yes - very rarely; remember the character's are supposed to be the next best thing to the Fellowship.

TOR players should have a different expectation only if you are running an expurgated Fairy/Faerie Tale campaign (ie, not the original Brother's Grimm version), but not if you are running an Epic Tale type of campaign.

Honestly I don't know that very many LM's would be able to consistently pull off viable adventures within a Fairy Tale campaign. I've enjoyed Patricia McKillip's writing, but I don't know that I could reproduce her ability to create wonder and evoke the sense of innocence she repeatedly manages. Anything less would just strike me as being unworthy. (I mention McKillip because she is a modern author who consistently writes fairy tale like fantasy.)


--------------------
Garn!
I have yet to read the books thoroughly.
Mini ProfilePMEmail Poster
Top
Brooke
Posted: May 2 2012, 04:16 AM
Report PostQuote Post





Group: Members
Posts: 230
Member No.: 2544
Joined: 21-March 12



I would add a note: I am usually very wary when I see people claiming to see structural patterns in any book. I think if you set out to find patterns, you will.
Mini ProfilePMEmail Poster
Top
JamesRBrown
Posted: May 2 2012, 09:44 AM
Report PostQuote Post





Group: TOR index group
Posts: 616
Member No.: 1729
Joined: 31-July 11



QUOTE (Brooke @ May 2 2012, 08:16 AM)
I would add a note: I am usually very wary when I see people claiming to see structural patterns in any book. I think if you set out to find patterns, you will.

That's interesting. What about sociology or psychology? Are you wary of those studies as well? These questions are serious, not sarcastic.

Personally, I don't think anyone can completely explain or understand the mind or behaviors of another. Often times, the people themselves don't know the 'whys.' But, I do believe analysis of their thoughts (whether written or recorded) can be done and the findings can be interesting.

In this case, Tolkien probably did not intentionally create structural patterns (although as a fiction writer, he certainly would have included certain elements and employed methods important to him), but if you dissect his work in The Hobbit, it is interesting to see the patterns he created nonetheless.

My desire to follow those hidden patterns is simply a desire to become a better writer/narrator while capturing the feel of the Professor.

I have discovered that for some writers, they show patterns from book to book, even though they haven't intended to do so.


--------------------
Please visit my blog, Advancement Points: The One Ring Files, for my TOR Resources
Mini ProfilePMEmail Poster
Top
Horsa
Posted: May 2 2012, 11:01 AM
Report PostQuote Post





Group: Members
Posts: 217
Member No.: 2477
Joined: 24-February 12



We are pattern finding creatures, it is part of who we are and what we do.

Tolkien's use of these structural patterns in the Hobbit may have been unconscious, but that does not mean that the patterns are not there. There are also structural parallels with Campell's famous "Hero's Journey".

Do the same patterns repeat themselves in Lord of the Rings?

As for whether ToR players should expect something different than players of other games, I say emphatically "YES!", otherwise why play ToR? I have very different expectations of different games, especially what have been called "culture" games, that is games where the specific. Setting has a definite influence on style of play, storytelling etc. I want to play ToR because I want to play out stories like Tolkien wrote in the two novels on which ToR is based. I do not want to play just to chop up lots of orcs in a world with Elves and Dwarves, if I wanted that I would just play D&D.

Should the players expect happy endings? Not always, bitter sweet seems truer to Tolkien. The fading of past glories is a huge theme in both novels.

Dues ex Machina? Only if used very carefully and sparingly. It needs to still feel integral to he story, not like a tacked on "get out of jail free" card. All of the appearant dei ex machinae I can recall in the novels were to an extent foreshadowed. Even Frodo's ultimate failure and Smeagol/Gollum's redemption were prefigured in "Shadow of the Past".
Mini ProfilePMEmail Poster
Top
JamesRBrown
Posted: May 16 2012, 12:35 AM
Report PostQuote Post





Group: TOR index group
Posts: 616
Member No.: 1729
Joined: 31-July 11



QUOTE (Garn @ May 2 2012, 12:14 AM)
TOR players should have a different expectation only if you are running an expurgated Fairy/Faerie Tale campaign (ie, not the original Brother's Grimm version), but not if you are running an Epic Tale type of campaign.

Honestly I don't know that very many LM's would be able to consistently pull off viable adventures within a Fairy Tale campaign.

A Loremaster could certainly try! That is why I started writing the Loremaster's Guide to Narrating Tolkien-style. It takes dedication, research, and practice, but if someone really wants to offer players an experience that reminds them of the books, then this is the price they will have to pay (which is really no price at all for those who love the game and Tolkien).

Francesco writes in the LB, page 7, "In addition to helping create an authentic Middle-earth experience, taking another look at Tolkien’s books will remind Loremasters of the many small details which can provide the seed of an adventure plot.

When choosing who will take the role of Loremaster, it would be sensible to choose the individual whose ‘Tolkien lore’ runs the deepest, as nothing ruins a good session of play as a player questioning the Loremaster’s knowledge of the source material.

It can seem a daunting prospect at first, but being the Loremaster is an immensely satisfying role through which a Tolkien enthusiast can truly experience the world of Middle-earth as its own creator did: by orchestrating all the elements of the setting to produce their very own epic tales."

I think that's great inspiration!


--------------------
Please visit my blog, Advancement Points: The One Ring Files, for my TOR Resources
Mini ProfilePMEmail Poster
Top
JamesRBrown
Posted: May 16 2012, 03:06 AM
Report PostQuote Post





Group: TOR index group
Posts: 616
Member No.: 1729
Joined: 31-July 11



Here are the rest of the parts broken down...

Part 2 (Chapters 4-7) - Foes (Goblins, Gollum, Wargs), Saviors (Gandalf, Bilbo, Eagles), Places of Peril (Caves, Dark Under Trees), Water into Peril (Storm, Underground Lake), Water out of Peril (Carrock), Homely House with a Host (Beorn's Hall, Beorn), Prize (Ring), Baggings or Bindings (Chains, Cave Door, Treetops), Night Journey (Under Misty Mountains)

Part 3 (Chapters 8-10) - Foes (Spiders, Elves), Savior (Bilbo), Places of Peril (Dark Under Trees, Caves), Water into Peril (Black Stream), Water out of Peril (Forest River to Esgaroth), Homely House with a Host (Esgaroth, Town Master), Prize (Leadership), Baggings or Bindings (Spider Silk, Prison, Barrels), Night Journey (Through Wood-elves' Cave)

Part 4 (Chapters 11-14) - Foe (Dragon), Saviors (Bilbo, Bard), Places of Peril (Caves), Water into Peril (Running River), Water out of Peril (Front Gate), Homely House with a Host (Mountain Hall, Thorin), Prize (Arkenstone), Baggings or Bindings (Cave Door), Night Journey (Through Dragon's Lair)

Part 5 (Chapters 15-19) - Foes (Thorin, Goblins), Saviors (Eagles, Beorn), Places of Peril (Dark Battlefield), Water into Peril (Front Gate), Water out of Peril (Bridge at Edge of Wild), Homely House with a Host (Home, Self), Prize (Treasure, Peace), Baggings or Bindings (Siege)


--------------------
Please visit my blog, Advancement Points: The One Ring Files, for my TOR Resources
Mini ProfilePMEmail Poster
Top
Trotter
Posted: May 16 2012, 09:41 AM
Report PostQuote Post





Group: Members
Posts: 88
Member No.: 1765
Joined: 6-August 11



QUOTE
Should players of The One Ring Roleplaying Game have different expectations than players of other games?  Shouldn't they be delighted to have happy endings and sudden joyous turns?  Shouldn't the perils be so great that even the main characters sometimes need rescuing?


Absolutely! Particularly due to the era in which The One Ring is set. Over the years as I've discussed Tolkien's works with my friends and family it's come up that there weren't too many happy endings until Bilbo came along. This is one of the things which makes it seem as if there's a sort of parallel between Middle-earth history and the Old Testament/New Testament. According to Tolkien the greatest eucatastrophe was the resurrection of Christ. Old Testament examples (like the parting of the Red Sea as Israel fled Egypt) also tended to occur at the last moment, when events were at there most desperate. The parallel doesn't always work, though. While there are many miracles in the Old Testament, the same cannot be said of life in Middle-earth pre-Bilbo. Eru/Ilúvator is a delegator, even in the creation of Middle-earth. Sure there are long periods of slavery in Old Testament, and times where Israel leaves her faith for the Baals, but there were happy endings once in a while. Not so much in The Silmarillion.

That being said, eucatastrophe should be quite rare, and should fit the purpose of a guiding hand as seen in Middle-earth: the destruction of the One Ring, and the reliance of the Free People on friendship and faith in their calling. How does that work? Hard to say. Ilúvatar and "I Am" are not the same, but they have this in common: "My ways are not your ways" (Isaiah 55:8). Ring of Power to a hobbit? Merry and Pippin instead of Glorfindel and another mighty elf warrior? The list of seeming accidents (but not - "meant to find the ring") and decisions based on "friendship rather than great wisdom" goes on, and they certainly are not decisions smart men would make. As for the perils being great, there will only be situations like that if the players are willing to enter them. And just to be clear, this can't be a stay-and-get-the-treasure choice as presented in "The Marsh Bell". That's not the kind of unwise decision I'm talking about. That's greed.

One other thing to consider is the elves in the time of Frodo and the Fellowship have still been fighting "The Long Defeat". There cannot be too many epic victories or that loses its meaning. Look how many soul-crushing defeats lead up to a eucatastrophe. Without the catastrophe first, there can be no eucatastrophe. Catastrophe is a sudden unexpected turn for the worse from good, eucatastrophe is a sudden unexpected turn for the good from the worse Remember the formula Tolkien first used. The cross first, then the empty tomb.

So, if the players are willing to play like that and even split their own fellowship, a little rescuing when all hope seems lost might really be the way to go. if this happens every week you're probably doing something very wrong. If the heroes are this victorious, why haven't we heard of them before? wink.gif Sorry if I'm all over the place. This is one of those topics that sends me on a mental and spiritual road trip!

Yours in fellowship,
Stephen "Trotter"


--------------------
| Search the TOR Forums - replace the word "search" with your search term(s).
| Trotter, the Mysterious Wooden-shoed Hobbit
| TOR Random Character Generator
| email (make it what it says, human! ;) )
Stephen "dot" C "dot" Holland "at" gmail "dot" com
| http://gplus.to/SCHolland
| I, Stephen "Trotter," am the husband of Heather "Heatherbeer" since may 17, 1997, and father of Saxon Calhoun as of April 20, 2012!

Mini ProfilePMEmail Poster
Top
Trotter
Posted: May 16 2012, 10:01 AM
Report PostQuote Post





Group: Members
Posts: 88
Member No.: 1765
Joined: 6-August 11



As for structure in literature, all good art has form, which is structure. To avoid it would be like building a house without a plan. In the words of Sam, "If this is shelter then one wall and no roof make a house." The mention of cycles in the first post reminded me of a recent Hog's Head Pubcast in which Harry Potter scholars Travis Prinzi and John Granger discuss the ring structure in the Potter books as well as The Lord of the Rings and, if I recall, [U]The Hobbit[/].

Hog's Head Pubcast # 90: "John Granger Talks in Circles"

Yours in fellowship,
Stephen "Trotter"


--------------------
| Search the TOR Forums - replace the word "search" with your search term(s).
| Trotter, the Mysterious Wooden-shoed Hobbit
| TOR Random Character Generator
| email (make it what it says, human! ;) )
Stephen "dot" C "dot" Holland "at" gmail "dot" com
| http://gplus.to/SCHolland
| I, Stephen "Trotter," am the husband of Heather "Heatherbeer" since may 17, 1997, and father of Saxon Calhoun as of April 20, 2012!

Mini ProfilePMEmail Poster
Top
1 User(s) are reading this topic (0 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
1 Members: Garn

Topic Options Reply to this topicStart new topicStart Poll

 


Google
 
Web cubicle7.clicdev.com


[ Script Execution time: 0.0436 ]   [ 15 queries used ]   [ GZIP Enabled ]   [ Server Load: 13.36 ]

Web Statistics