I think like Darkening of Mirkwood we will probably see the information split into regional books and then each period will have a campaign book.

I'm guessing they have a lot of the initial writing for Errantries done at this stage, so I'd imagine they will just reflow it into a single volume, merging timeline and cultures.

Given the difficulties in getting product approved, printed and shipped in a timely manner, fewer, more inclusive releases might be better than splitting things into multiple products.

I just ordered the book+PDF and that 3pk of dice sets.

This is one time I'm happy to spend money!!!


Looking forward to this all.

Why does everyone seem to think the three core sets concept is scrapped? Errantries of the King was always a working title not an official release title. Rivendell might well be the content that was unofficially titled Errantries. I'm sure everyone noticed the TBC, that is, to-be-changed. Quite possibly, they have encountered difficulties with the use of Erreantries of the King as a possible title. So, Rivendell as a working title provides something descriptive but fluid for the time being...TBC.

Also, nowhere do I remember an official statement on the planned content of Errantries. We all had and still have a lot of assumptions and guesses about the content and what it should be no doubt; but, speaking for myself at least, Adventures Over the Edge of the Wild surprised me with the direction it took. Definitely not after the fashion of MERP with its geographical treatments and campaign sourcebooks. All of this to say (quoting another forum member who rightly reminded me), let's not be so hasty and assume the designers have changed their intentions for the product line with it's three core sets.

Quite possibly, the Rivendell book might cover a good deal of the surrounding area broadly speaking. Similar to Lake-town, maybe we see Bree and the Shire in a supplement book. And, considering the approach of the designers to date: would you have Grey Haven Elves or Blue Mountain Dwarves of necessity? I don't think so, though many of us may hope so.

If we follow the narrative approach of the designers and the Tale of Years in Appendix B of The LotR, where's the next great movement in the unfolding events of the Twilight of Third Age. Sauron has declared himself openly in Mordor. Now, truly there is an Enemy. Wilderland is under threat because the Darkening of Mirkwood has already happened. Unless, of course, the player-heroes altered the outcome through the Darkening campaign. Those who oppose the Shadow now see before them a clearer purpose. More than ever, the Wise set bold adventurers into motion as the opening moves begin.

Of all this activity, Rivendell is at the heart of the story not Eriador per se. And, so, whether the errantries of a King-to-Return, or player-heroes becoming more focused in their goals and pursuits because that nagging unease, that uncertainty of Hope and the ever present work of Shadow upon their spirits now has a source, a name that the eruption of Mount Doom writ large across the skies of Northwestern Middle-earth. Rivendell becomes the nexus of the next arc in unfolding game.

Yes, the Shire and Bree become beds of activity for agents with competing motives. But following the carefully orchestrated release of supplements, the suggested amount of adventures per year and the years separating the core sets, player-heroes from Wilderland will have years of experience and the patronage of many a Wise and Noble lord. They will have confronted the return of the Shadow directly in the Darkening of Mirkwood, and seen firsthand the work of the Enemy. By the mid 2950's these player-heroes or their heirs will be tried and tested, invaluable allies to the Wise now that the Enemy has declared himself.

This how I imagine, if we follow the carefully planned and focused approach of TOR covering more than half a century, the next core set will be released. With that said, I think they are still right on track as they originally foresaw and proclaimed; possibly with some name changes along the way for marketing and licensing reasons. I for one am looking forward to this unfolding story of Middle-earth in a RPG as opposed to an endlessly expandinging Middle-earth RPG.

Just one thought among many...!

Regards,
E

C7 says the three core sets structure is scrapped in its latest press release. They couldn't be more clear on this point. There is to be only one "core set" which we have already, and the rest of the material will be released as "sourcebooks".

The question you have moved on to ask is whether this change in structure of the releases will have any impact on the content as originally planned. That's a good question but I don't think anyone has suggested that the content will necessarily change because of the structural change. My observation is that I think is likely is that what was Errantries of the King will be split into three or more books - Rivendell, Eriador, Errantries of the King campaign book.

As for your comment about issues with the set's name, can't we just take C7's word on the change and the reasons for it? Their explanation makes sense without having to attribute other reasons.

Any idea whether TALES FROM WILDERLAND will become available on DriveThruRPG the same time the PDF preorders become available for download? It's a hot minute since I purchased a "real" gaming book (versus an e-version), I'm afraid, and I'm not keen to break my streak with a purchase involving cross-Atlantic shipping.



Edit: Disregard complaint regarding cross-Atlantic shipping. Just for giggles, I checked the shipping cost and discovered that Cubicle 7 either kindly discounts shipping to the United States or has a US publisher.

I just ordered a copy ... and that despite my owning a game store ... I really should've waited and bought it from myself, but the PDF (described as coming "soon") was soooooo tempting ... too, I didn't know if the Bits 'N Mortar deal was good for this or not ... I'm assuming it will be and, if so, it should all even out in the end. Anyway, Cubicle7, it seems I am STILL supporting you (I pre-ordered TOR, too) both as a direct customer AND as a retailer, too! I hope and trust that you appreciate that and reward us ALL by continuing to make GREAT The One Ring RPG products!

Now, where's the PDF?

I know, I know ... good things come to those who wait. I wonder, though ... how long must I wait for a GREAT thing?

Out of curiosity, do people in the US get the correct UK spellings of colour and armour in their books, or is it altered for the US market? It's refreshing to have an RPG book that has UK spelling, usually we get US English spelling as publishers don't go through and change the print for us poor folks in the old country.

There's been a few comments about e-books on the Amazon website recently, where US customers have complained about misspellings in the books, meaning UK spelling, despite the publisher and writer being in the UK. That's what has brought on the curiosity.

Personally, I'm a little disappointed by the announcement in the newsletter that the additional corebooks are getting replaced by sourcebooks. I was looking forward to having 3 of the slip cases sitting on my shelf, complete with dice, and the repeat of the rules would mean that you'd only have to cart one of the slip cases around with you to play in another region. Sourcebooks are good, but they do add to the weight that you have to lug around. I hope that releasing the information in sourcebooks won't multiply the cost involved (i.e. hope that the release involves 2 sourcebooks at £20 replacing 1 corebook at £40, instead of several sourcebooks).

Great news about Tales from Wilderland!
(BTW, does anyone have an idea how much shipping is to Germany if I order at the c7 webstore? I ordered m core set through amazon, but I'd prefer to give my money directly to c7 ...)

The one thing that bothers me about the decision not to publish three core sets is the question how additional rules are going to be presented. I like to have all my rules in core sets (be it one, two or three), not spread out over sourcebooks. For example, we might find rules for mounted combat in an upcoming Sourcebook on Rohan - then I'd have to carry the original core set and the Rohan sourcebook around if I have a mounted fighter in my group ...

I do see the issue of repeating Information from the first core set, though.

The updated release info reminded me. Any word on the combined AB/LB Index project? I had assumed until now that it would be released with one of the forthcoming supplements, most likely with Errantries.


Jakob,
No way to answer that just yet - without consulting tea leaves. However, PDFs can now be merged (more accurately, appended) so that is the most cost effective option assuming a Revised, Updated or Nth Edition is not waiting in the wings.

It's progressing! JamesRBrown has done the vast majority of the heavy lifting on stage one, with some assistance from bbarlow. It's had a couple of rounds of proofing, and has just headed off to slot into the layout queue.

We have some planning to do on stage two, which is most likely supplementary themed indices as an optional extra. We'll have some discussion about that within the work group and check back in.

Whilst I personally am not in a position to rule out any form of publication, it was always intended as a free download available to all.

@Skywalker, i know the three core sets are scrapped; but, I am grieving the loss...

Granted, I appreciate their move to not reproduce material. But, still, I grieve the loss of what seems a decisively Tolkien-imprint on the game. You recall those early video interviews with Francesco about the conceptual design and philosophy undergirding the game? It was very Tolkien. My fear is the game's explicit context may shift FROM:

Participating in Tolkien's mythology and stories,

TO:

Adventuring in Middle-earth.

Both have their appeal, and appeal to different audiences I imagine though I couldn't say analytically. Nevertheless, there is a vast difference, though, maybe in a footnote-ish sense, to these two approaches to building a RPG based on Tolkien that takes place in Middle-earth.

So, it seems that there might be a shift in design conceptually and philosophically from staging the game such wise that the explicit context is a participation in Tolkien's mythology. From this perspective to an alternate perspective that covers Middle-earth and sets the stage for players to adventure across its vistas without necessarily feeling the movement of Tolkien's myth. Granted,anyone can take the game and extrapolate it's mechanics into house rules to cover things they want to play that might not be included; e.g., magic, cultures not directly involved in the events portrayed in The Hobbit and The LotR. I welcome and applaud those creative movements, and thoroughly enjoy reading about them. However, I was soaking in the rules-as-written encouraging the players, no guiding the players into Tolkien's myth and not just Middle-earth.

You might say I am indulging in an anachronistic moment.

Regards,
E

Ps. If I step back from my speculation, I am forced to admit it is speculation with no substantial statements from C7 to found it. Is this a Bout of Madness I wonder...?

We get the UK spellings ... which is my preference as they fit the topic and source.

EXCELLENT!!!!!

I'd buy two print copies, when available! Of course, I'd want a PDF version, as well.

I think when something is so precious - like those conceptual underpinnings we spoke about in the videos, and indeed our shared love of Middle-Earth and Tolkien's work, it is entirely natural to worry for it, especially in a time of change.

I also think, and indeed know with great joy, that the care for those things was not predicated solely on the three slip case format.

Wow this is me being extremely serious. Open a window or something!

Thanks for the note, seriousness and all!

Did I say how excited I was that we are seeing Darkening of Mirkwood so close after Tales from Wilderland. I am starting my Tales from Wilderland game in May and it will likely be monthly. Hopefully that will mean that the various other supplements listed will arrive during the game's run and let me add more awesome to it, even extend it.

As one who have been waiting for Tales from Wilderland for some time now, and pre-ordered it, I would be very interested in getting at least a rough time frame on when the pdf will be sent out. Will it be within a week or two, or more like two months, just before the release of the book?

-E.

The press release said the PDF would be sent out within a week. That also matches the usual pattern of making the PDF available at the time the book goes to print.

Nice, I must have missed that.

E.

Three thoughts.

First, I would love to see a consolidated single volume collection of all the rules at such point as the majority of he rules have been written, published, expanded, contracted and finalized. One Book to bring them all, one Book to find them. One Book to rule them all and in the Game Room bind them.

Second, I think that posting the PDF for sale on Drive Thru etc now, as opposed to after the print copy reaches the market would be counterproductive. The advance PDF copies are a thank you for committing the money to buying a print copy. I would not be surprised if print orders declined were the PDF to available before the print copies even reached the shops.

Third, if you want to be true to Tolkien, then three slipcased sets a not the way to go. Instead we should have a lite introductory set, a huge main codex, and then a slew of hastily edited and issued designers' notes, rough drafts and back of napkin scribblings edited and published by someone not part of the original design team.

Remember that the familiar three volume format of Lord of the Rings was a publisher's decision. The author wrote and conceived of the work as a single novel.

Perhaps C7 should have gone the King Arthur Pendragon 5e route, with a substantial hardcover rulebook, including basic setting, followed by a massive and encyclopedic campaign book containing the full campaign outline and setting from the finding of the Ring to its destruction, then issue a few expensive limited edition sourcebooks adding detail? Much though I love KAP I'm not sure this publishing model actually helped the game.

I do really like the full painted colour presentation of TOR so far. I am sure it adds a chunk to the price, probably close to what the licensing fees add, but it is well worth it.

I'm not buying printed books anymore, especially not for RPGs. Making me wait for a product (that we've already been waiting for) to "reward" folks who buy the print version isn't a good way to appeal to your limited customer base.

eh?

As per: C7 main

Pre-orders go out in a week or so, hardcopies ship in a couple of months.

I'm not sure what the issue is.

From what I understand, his issue is that he doesn't buy printed copies (just PDFs), and is concerned that the only way to get a PDF before the physical release is to buy the print copy.

It's a valid concern, but I'm not sure that it's been stated anywhere that that would be the case? Or perhaps I'm just assuming that the PDF will go on sale at the same time that it becomes available for those of us who pre-ordered the print copies.

For my part, I see the PDF as a "bonus," which allows me to view the material before my physical copy gets here. For me, there's no substitute for actually holding a book in your hands and being able to physically turn the pages (and, of course, being able to lounge around and read it without the heat and eye-strain of a laptop ).

Let me try to posit an explanation...

I think that maybe what CraftyShafty is saying is that, in many cases, the PDF of a book is less expensive to purchase than the physical book. Perhaps CraftyShafty doesn't want to pay the higher cost for a physical book when all he wants is the PDF.

Now, I shall begin my soapbox rant....

As a bricks 'n mortar game store retailer, I absolutely HATE it when a game publisher sells the PDF of their physical books at a greatly reduced price than the physical book itself! PDFs should be "free" with the physical book's purchase or cost nearly the same price as the physical book, if sold separately. Too much less hurts the retailer (i.e., the group that gets the vast majority of their product out to the public).
Yes, it is a "reward" to the purchaser of the physical book ... and doesn't hurt the retailer.

That is why the Bits 'N Mortar methodology, of which Cubicle7 is a member, is such a good thing! Just like the game publisher, bricks 'n mortar game store retailers can offer the PDF for "free" with purchase of a physical copy, too!

On behalf of all game store retailers, thank you, Cubicle7!!!

Soapbox rant over....

He and I don't want to buy the dead tree version. We just want the PDF. We don't want to have to pre-order the dead tree in order to get the PDF next week.

Understood. I mistakenly assumed you could order the pdf alone.

I don't know that we can't, but I don't know that we can, either.

In point of fact, until it hits DTRPG, I won't be getting it.

I was specifically referring to this comment :

Some of us don't buy print versions of games (or other books, for the matter) for a number of reasons, all of which are perfectly valid, etc etc. Digital versions, for me, are a no-brainer now, and I will only purchase games in that format.

Attempting to charge PDF consumers, as someone suggested, for the printing, shipping, overhead prices associated with a print version, of course, is a sure fire way to get those consumers to stop purchasing any of your products, not buy the print copy.

Happily, C7 doesn't seem so foolish. I would just like their newsletters to be written in a clearer fashion and their official communications to be handled more professionally. It would eliminate 90% of the complaints.

For me, it is a bit more complicated. At the height of my gaming career, my collection filled around fourteen "normal"-sized moving boxes. Over the past few years, I've slowly but surely been selling my collection on eBay and half.com, however, because I move every one to three years for my job, often internationally. On top of that, my wife, understandably, is not keen about trying to find places to store my stuff when we move; in a very practical sense, we essentially pay to store it and, often times, it is an eyesore in rooms we would like to use for other purposes. It is bad enough that my collection of professional and academic books takes several book cases (cases, not shelves).

I prefer "real" books for several reasons, but they won't again be practical for my gaming habit until I retire.

No disrespect to CraftyShafty and Aramis but I have to say that I think this is something of a "storm in a teacup" issue. Given the extremely high standard of the artwork in this line I would far prefer a hard copy of this book over just a PDF.

I appreciate that they will disagree but many others will not.

C7 are clearly trying to create some buzz prior to the release of the hardcopy by putting it up for preorder with the incentive of a free PDF. They want to sell the hardcopy because that will have a greater mark up than a PDF. That's fair enough isn't it? This is after all how they put food on their families' tables.

I'm very grateful that C7 are prepared to even provide the PDF as a preorder incentive. My concern is that if you make too much of an issue of this they might simply come to the conclusion that it's all too much trouble and stop offering it, whereupon we will all have to wait for the hardcopy release date.

On a general note I would like to add that, in my view, "the internet" is far too quick to complain. There is far too much of "this is too slow" and "that is poor communication" when perhaps what is really meant is "I'm very excited and can't wait".

It's very easy to criticise C7 on this forum because they can't really argue for fear of offending a potential customer.

Well, I am both a potential and actual customer and would just like to say that I think that your work on The One Ring is outstanding and more power to you. I'll wait as long as it takes for you to produce another polished product.

Your evident hard work to date has more than earned that faith.

No offense taken!

That makes almost no sense, business-wise (the more important, in this case) or otherwise.

For what it's worth, I speak more from a professional rather than personal perspective. This happens to be a part of my industry (thus, putting food on *my* familiy's table, as you put it) so it's quite relevant to me. Marketing, efficient product-development and proper communications are critical in a niche-within-a-niche like tabletop RPGs. Effective exploitation of new markets - in this case, the one opened by direct digital delivery of products - is also vital to success.

In any event, I think you're conflating a few issues here. I hope C7 manages to avoid unfortunate missteps that will further jeopardize their company or this license. Certainly TOR has the stamp of a product lovingly-made, and no one wants it to fail prematurely.

Sorry, but it makes perfect sense to me else I would not have posted thus.

I'm just concerned at the amount of negativity that I see on a day to day basis when I read Internet forums.

I appreciate that you may have strong views on this issue as marketing is part of your industry. But we are not talking about a large multi national corporation here, with it's own PR department. I dare say that the "in house marketing department" is also the same guy that asks if anyone wants a cup of tea before starting their next job which could be writing or editing the next sourcebook.

C7 are clearly a small organisation and no doubt each member has to wear several hats whilst juggling several balls (apologies in advance for the mixed metaphors).

All I'm suggesting is a little perspective here. And before you talk about missteps, jeopardy or failing prematurely remember that they managed to secure a nomination for an Origins award all on their own, doing things their way.

Indeed.

The way I see things is:

The company would do well not to sell a PDF for the price a book - but not drastically cheaper - to help with retailers. Like 30 vs 20 dollars for PDF.

I see the PDF being distributed early as a reward - not only for buying the hard-copy book, but literally "investing" in their product. Pre-orders give the company a head's up on how many may be needed to print, and they get the money up front to pay for the printing and begin working on the next projects.

When the books ARE released, a PDF only should be an option, and has already some advantages when purchased over the hard-copies: 1st - no cost of shipping. 2nd - no wait time in delivery.

While Tom who didn't preorder, now wants to buy his book online, he'll have to wait the 5-10 shipping days to get it - and pay shipping or exorbitant shipping to expedite it; while Harry who bought the PDF on the same day has a cheaper cost, no shipping and can use it immediately for the next two weekly gaming sessions before Tom ever gets his.

Meanwhile Dick, has pre-ordered - will get his hard-copy book about the same time as Tom, but his PDF came a month before Harry got his PDF - since Dick opted for a more costly purchase, and did so before even guaranteeing anything was being shipped - a salute to Dick's patronage and investment in their company.


Being viewed this way - everyone wins.

Paizo offers PDFs free with the purchase of Subscriptions - which I have for most of their product lines. I get my PDFs immediately but not before the hard-bound is available to start shipping - but still fully 2 weeks before I get my books in hand. That in itself is a great customer reward for my patronage to their company and it's comparable to what Cubicle 7 is offering here. And customers can still buy PDFs only (for a small mark-down) but can't "subscribe" to PDF options - only hard-copies. Again the benefit of subscribing IS a free PDF; if you're subscribing only for PDFs, there's simply no benefit for subscribing then. In summation I think what Cubicle 7 is doing is very wise, safe, and fair.

Good debate gentlemen! Very entertaining. I feel like I'm reading a transcript from the House of Commons. C7, you must be doing something right!

This post has been edited by JamesRBrown on Mar 30 2012, 07:58 PM

I currently own 3 C7 games.

TOR in hard copy only, bought on vacation from a games store the name of which I don't remember, before I even knew about Bits'n'Mortar, if I want a PDF I'll probably get it from DriveThruRPG.

Dark Harvest: Legacy of Frankenstein both PDF and Print, PDF first from DriveThru, liked it enough that I ordered the print version from Amazon.

Abney Park's Airship Pirates, I finally got wise and ordered it from C7 in print and got free PDFs.

I plan now to pre-order print versions of future releases from C7. I prefer print for games I like, but do get them in PDF for portability.

As a non-game retail shop owner I hate hearing about all the places online to buy the same inventory I offer at lower prices.

Perspective indeed... I'd not have purchased if not in PDF. More of my money made it into C7's accounts than would have had I bought it in dead tree.

I only print it out when I actually run the game, anyway. Mostly because my e-reader can't flip fast enough, and the yellow background makes it hard to read on the e-reader's grayscale screen, and slows paging. "Print Friendly" isn't just for printing purposes. Low-ink PDF versions generally look better on eInk displays than full color version.

Now, I paid $30 for the PDF, instead of $60+ for dead tree. Many US web retailers won't ship to Alaska (and some are so stupid as to think we're foreign territory), and several of the ones that do only do so with their most expensive shipping options (even tho' flat rate postal boxes cost no more to Alaska than across town). So even ordering online isn't likely to be less than $65, if I could even get it. And my LGS only got 4 copies - and 2 sold to employees, while the other two were gone in a week or so, and have not been restocked... and I didn't have the cash until after they sold out. I could spare $30 - it was my January recreation budget. In total. I couldn't spare $60.

Plus, Of the $30 I spent, probably about $21 made it to C7... whereas, if I'd bought in dead tree, the $60 would have been about $25-$30 to my LGS, and $15-$20 to their wholesaler, leaving $15-$20 for C7, who would still have the expenses of printing the books (about $5-$10, depending upon where printed and what volume run).

And they'd be distilling a PDF anyway... because most print-houses now want PDF.

Redistilling without the background images is anywhere from a 5 minute (if they are just on the master pages - save as, delete the images from the master page, print to Acrobat, and go to tea) to 2 hour (if not) job, plus maybe an hour to reproduce the border images, and improves the PDF's utility for a variety of user categories... the "this page and that page" guys, the "I want it in A5, not A4" guys, the "Let's read it on my Nook/Kindle/SonyReader" guys, and the "Let's put it into a notebook" crowd.

It's not like I was asking for a no-art version - just one where the background color image on the master page isn't used. (Load a PDF on a reflow-enabled PDF reader, and you get to see interesting bits of the PDF's structure... like the fact that many pages in the core book have two images, not one, in the background; pages with paintings often have 3.)

Oh, and an Origins nomination is pretty much irrelevant to the issues being discussed. Not that it's meaningless, but it's not important here.

The questions should be:
1) is the hour or two extra for the "no background images" version a worthwhile add-on of value?
2) Will dead tree sales be significantly impacted by releasing the PDF earlier than the dead tree ships?
3) Will the goodwill generated by PDF sales prior to dead tree hitting shelves be outweighed by lost sales at the stores?

I believe that C7 historically releases PDF through DTRPG pretty close to when the preorder PDFs are made available. Maybe not simultaneously but within a day or so.