Hullo there everyone!

I have such a question: maybe someone have seen or created detailed description of the Dale?

How bit is this town? Their population? Architecture? Maybe someone draw the map?

The City of Dale is described in the Loremaster's Book (pg. 97-99). There's no map though.

Hilly,
There was a map of Dale in the old Merp Mirkwood release, if you can get your hands on that. I don't think that it was a great map though and I don't think it meshes very well with the artists impression of it as shown on the Adventurers book.

I believe that the picture in the Introduction section shows Dale, the River Running and the Lonely Mountain.

As to size, construction and population, there s virtually nothing in the canon writings. There are several threads earlier on the forum where various populations are discussed at length.

There are several assumptions that I have made for my own upcoming campaign which is Dale-centric.

1) It is a stone walled city. This is a rarity, if not unique, for this region of ME at this point in the Third Age. Most other largish settlements in this region would be little more than big villages surrounded by palisades, ditches and embankments. This is, of course, due to Dwarfish influence.
2) There is a substantially higher than usual population of craftsmen and artisans in the city. This is also due to the Dwarfish influence.
3) A substantially higher than normal percentage of the population would be youngish men, fit for and inclined towards military service or the life of an adventurer. In a pseudo Dark Ages setting, warriors would be drawn to generous Lords with wealth and reputation. Which Mannish Lord in the north lands is wealthier, more generous or as greater reputation than Bard the Bowman, slayer of Smaug the Dragon?
4) The Kingdom of Dale in the default year only consists of the city itself and the Valley it sits within. Laketown remains autonomous, as do all the other settlements of the Dalefolk in exile such as the villages and forts of the Celduin and Carnen valleys.
5) My current population figures are roughly 4000 people in Dale proper and perhaps ten times that in potential subjects as mentioned above.

Hope this gives you some ideas.

The only thing I'll add to Halbarad's usually thorough reply is that if you can't find the old MERP module, Northern Mirkwood The Wood-elves Realm, you may want to look at Decipher's LOTR webzine, the Hall of Fire. They have an issue that includes a map of Dale (though like the MERP map a bit lacking IMHO).

While searching for maps a few weeks ago, I recall seeing a map for the video game Battle of Middle-earth 2 that included Dale and the entrance to Lonely Mountain (maybe for a Smaug assault scenario?). It looked very colorful and had many streets laid out (including multiple story buildings). I don't how canon this might be, but may prove useful. A Google search would certainly yield results based on keywords derived from this post.

If it helps ... Hall of Fire #20

Thanks Throrsgold! I couldn't recall which issue.

Thanks for he heads up on that Mim and thanks to Throrsgold for the link. I wasn't aware that Dale had been covered by Hall of Fire.
It's of great interest to me as the author of the piece seems to agree with my notions of a remaining Horsefolk culture in the region and an autonomous Laketown.

Yes, I thought of your work on the Horsefolk when I read it again. Pretty cool .

Thank you for information and links!

Some of this could be very usefull, but I hope i could make better map with descriptions of every particular, mayor and most important building and district. It will be speculations, but i need good described places and I will try to make it as much as according with all information that I could find from different sorces.

If really we could cooperate (because in such a way we would have a bigger lore base) and make small manuals and maps to every mayor and minor s in Wilderland. It would help people alot.

Hilly,

I don't know if you've seen Cubicle 7's other products but they are developing a Loremaster's Screen that includes an insert for Esgaroth/Lake-town (apparently as a default sanctuary for player-heroes). It may not be much & probably won't cover Dale, but it might help you a bit.

They may do something similar for Errantries of the King concerning Rivendell as a separate supplement.

This said, however, I can't agree more with you that we have some great fan-based material on here & we all need to keep helping each other to fill in the gaps.

I'd happily contribute in such an endeavor! With the quality of work I have seen produced here, I'm certain we could construct a very attractive and useful guide! When I have done my own creations, I usually start with a map ... so, I'd suggest having one before getting to in depth on placing locales. That shouldn't stop us from creating such locales, though.

This post has been edited by Throrsgold on Jan 25 2012, 03:51 PM

Oh I agree completely. When I was heavily into running Midnight Campaign RPG by Fantasy Flight Games (3.5 D&D OGL compatible), there was an annual compendium put out by just the people on the message forums contributions. It was really good with some great material for players and DMs.

The Dunedain, Rhohan, the magic system, mounted combat etc, all on here are perfect prime examples of things that could go into the first such release, and deserve their place in the readily accepted gamer submission content.


Paizo has a RPG SUPERSTAR contest every so often (I think 2 times a year) where they review gamer submission of "adventures" and narrow it down with viewer votes; the winner is published into a module. Paizo gives big bonus points to authors that use the canon info of their world of golarion; so it helps to be knowledgeable in their setting. Still, borrowing that idea, we could see a number of great adventure's submitted for that purpose, and many on here know a whole lot about Middle-Earth's history and geography etc.

Which FWIW, was a fantastic submission, of which I have to admit to having yoinked already for my campaign that started a few weeks ago.

BTW, I deleted portions of my earlier post to place the items further down here.

I'll flesh these out more by editing this post at a later date, but I'll start by offering up the following:

• The Quiet Wife: The sign for this establishment has a picture of a stylized tombstone and grave.
• Fraeg Stonesplitter & Son, Fine Toymakers Since III 2563: This business is located on the original plot of land that it did before Smaug sacked Erebor and Dale ... a fact Fraeg proudly announces by displaying the original deed on the wall! Fraeg's grandfather managed to save the deed while fleeing the city and the family kept it safe for over 170 years until Erebor was reclaimed. Fraeg, a Dwarf, is a metalsmith ... his son is a woodworker ... combined they can create nearly any toy of which you can think (e.g., puppets, wind-up toys, miniatures & figurines, multi-sided dice, thumb toys, climbing toys, push toys, pull toys, tops, puzzle toys, building blocks, merry go rounds, pendulum toys, string toys, jumping jack toys, dolls, doll houses and accessories, baby toys and accessories [cradles, etc.], wagons & carts, toy horns & drums, ornaments, etc.).

If we really are going to approach the Kingdom of Dale as a community gazetteer, it might be a good idea to set some ground rules/guidelines. I suppose one of the most important would be to determine the year of our setting. Are we going to use the default year of 2946? I ask this because the kingdom of Dale will steadily grow into a much larger piece of real estate by the time of the War of the Ring.

If we are going with 2946, are there any objections or misgivings about any of the assumptions that I set out earlier in the thread? I imagine that my estimated population may require some debate.
Are we going to look only at Dale, or everywhere there is likely to be a Dalish diaspora, such as Laketown, the Upper Anduin, Running and Redwater valleys and possibly even Dorwinion ?

Although everyone is welcome to contribute,would anyone like to take on the role of editor and the creator of any proposed document? The Editor should,of course, have the final say in what is included in the document.

Should all submissions be discussed openly within the community before being sent to the editor?

My two pence:

Yes, I agree that we should use C7's default setting of 2946 for Dale (at least to begin), if only out of professional courtesy to Francesco, Jon, Gareth, & their team.

For those of you new to the boards, Halbarad has already posted some well-developed material about the background of the Men of the region including some data on Dale.

I don't see why we can't use this information as is, possibly expanding the population to account for these increases as the War of the Ring approaches.

Well, with the exception of Northmen pirates reaving on the Sea of Rhun, ack .

Throrsgold,

I like your descriptions of the inn & of Fraeg. I also use his name from the Elda Edda & these are great write-ups.

You said that you're going to update your earlier post, but I can't locate it.

Am I this blind?

Thanks!

I like this idea of a community gazetteer/ newsletter! I would be happy to add a little art work from time to time.

No ... well, maybe. Sorta ....

I wrote at the top of the post about Fraeg & Son and The Quiet Wife the following ... "BTW, I deleted portions of my earlier post to place the items further down here." What I meant by that was that I'd removed the earlier part and put it in another post ... the one that I was writing at that moment. I added the new post to draw attention to the new information as it'd gone a while with no commentary.

And, thank you, by the way, too.

I think I'll just do a new post with the updated information in it from now on.

Phew.

That's what I thought you meant, so I'm glad that I didn't miss the entire post .

You have a great description & I'll be curious if we can all put something together for Dale. If we follow canon - to as much as possible - we should be able to compliment C7's Lake-town insert nicely (unless they do something with Dale).

I originally designed this character and with Laketown in mind. However, as there is going to be a more in depth look at Laketown I am going to relocate to Dale.

Mungo Butterchurn arrived at Dale, in the company of a dwarf named Bori, just over a year ago. He hails from the village of Long Cleeve in the North Farthing of the Shire. His father is Frodegar Butterchurn (of the Hardbottle Butterchurns) and his mother is Marigold Took of the North Tooks. Through his mothers family he can claim direct lineage from Bandobras 'Bullroarer' Took, the victor of the Battle of Greenfields.
Upon the return of Bilbo Baggins to the Shire and amidst the subsequent small talk and rumours that followed, it did not take long for Mungo to feel a stirring in his 'Tookish' blood. He packed up some belongings and set off in search of adventure.
He is a small fellow with a big personality and fond of a tale or two. He has many wild stories of his journeys with Bori, tales of caverns in the Misty Mountains filled with gold and Goblins and of misty downs in far off Eriador, where ancient Kings rest uneasily in their funeral barrows.
Whatever the truth of these stories, Bori refers to his friend as 'little Braveheart' for reasons known only to themselves and he arrived at Dale with a mysterious, locked, chest and enough gold to purchase and refit an inn.
Although he revels in his popularity in Dale he is starting to long for the meadows of the North Farthing, or at least for the company of other Hobbits. In truth, he is starting to feel lonely and any Hobbit who stays at his hostelry is assured of right royal treatment.
Bori, has since taken up residence in Erebor where it transpires that he is a younger sibling of, no less than, three of Thorin Oakenshield's company.

The Comfy Chair





The Comfy Chair is renowned as, possibly, the most popular inn in the city of Dale. It's proprietor (and cook) is the gregarious hobbit-Mungo Butterchurn.

Oops, don't know what happened there.

Anyway, the Comfy Chair is a half timbered building comprising a dozen bedrooms(two of which are Hobbit sized), kitchen,common taproom and snug(as well as Mungo's personal quarters).The old thatched roof has been replaced with expensive red tiles imported from the Iron Hills and it sits on the Street of blue Flagstones near the Trader's Gate. It is furnished to a high standard and patrons include Bori, his siblings and Bombur(who simply adores the little Hobbits cooking).
Such prestigious patrons and any visiting Hobbits are often invited to the snug to partake of a smoke of Mungo's personal supply of Longbottom Leaf.


Hopefully, Mungo or some of Bilbo's companions might be encountered here for cultivation as patrons.

I like Mungo, Bori, & the Comfy Chair. These are great Halbarad!

Here are a few venues & their patrons to share tales with Mungo, Bori, & the clientale at the Comfy Chair:

Merchants of Mystery

Einar (Lone Warrior) and his family operate this establishment of misc. wares for travelers. He lost his right eye fighting Easterlings and now wears a patch to cover it (as well as a considerable grudge against the Easterlings). His wife Ronalda (Powerful) and their three precocious but adorable little rascals—Bondi (Peasant Farmer), Iwar (Battle Archer), and Run (Secret Love and daddy’s little girl)—offer some of the finest goods and services across the North, and they are reasonably priced and normally well-stocked.

The Hungry Salmon

This building serves as a lesser fish market—and smells it! Harold (High-Old) and Torwald (Thunder-Ruler) are brothers who share this load. Fishermen by day and carousing roustabouts by night, they are an unsavory pair who contribute little to the realm. They are at least somewhat trustworthy, however, because they are too dim-witted to be in league with anyone but their own rapidly swelling bellies. At the rate they put it away on their nightly forays to the inns, they will top off the scales within a matter of years for sheer girth.

These two also reek of fish at most times, as washing seems to be another quaint custom that passes them by. Nonetheless, they do provide a variety of fish, mostly fresh and quite good, and are known for a number of home salmon recipes that their family has passed-down over the years.

The Hen and Chickens

This is the house and shop of the strapping local blacksmith Knut (Knot). He is a Daleman, but it is difficult for him to make a living as a blacksmith because he cannot compete with the nearby Dwarves. He nonetheless carries out odd work when required by those who cannot afford the Dwarves’ generally higher prices. He hopes to be able to settle down and raise a family in peace amidst his beloved friends.

Since he often does most of the minor horse related work such as shoeing and such, he fits right in and is well-liked, and treats everyone fairly and courteously. He also makes and repairs many farm tools used hereabout, and is an extremely capable blacksmith. He fought in the Battle of Five Armies with the Lake-men and still has his longbow, quiver with 20 arrows, longsword, and leather jerkin, all stashed away secretly, just in case.

He divides his smithy roughly in half; the western portion is the workshop. The shop has two doors to the outside, one on the south side near the west wall, the second in the middle of the west wall. The southern door is the main entrance. It is large enough to admit a wagon and, weather permitting, he keeps it open during the day. The western door opens into the Paddock shared by the Smithy and the Inn, and is large enough for leading horses into the shop.

The latter is the reason for Knut’s current shift in business because he also runs a somewhat busy inn, offering competitive fare and menu selections. His roly-poly wife Dagna (New Day) and young and fair daughter Sigrun (Secret Victory) help him maintain the place.

Handsome Hides

These are just that and offer a fine selection. Asabiarn (Divine Bear), Holgeir (Spear-Like), Ranulf (Wolf-Like Advice), Sigurd (Victorious Guardian), and Thorburn (Thunder Warrior) are the motley assortment of hunters and trappers who work through here. They are all dedicated and experienced in varying degrees, though usually a bit toward stoic loners rather then being very cooperative. They have the gamut of the usual types of wilderness feats and skills.

Keepers of the Cloth

The beauteous young seamstress Asta (Star), her older and scathing-tongued sister Astrid (Divine Strength), and their strong-willed shieldmaiden of an aunt Raghild (Battle-Wise)—who some say has actually fought against Easterling raiders (!)—run this rambling clothier that also includes a variety of reasonably priced accoutrements for journeys and the like.

The Buttery

This building carries a variety of dairy products and fresher foods serving as sort of a lesser market place. A number of sellers also set up stalls without. Ingemar (Famous Son), his wife Liw (Protection), and their twin son and daughter, Eric (Honorable Ruler) and Thora (Thunder), run this shop. They are an affable and cooperative lot, liked and trusted by people hereabouts.

White Heather

Ingrid (Hero’s Daughter) is a stunning flaxen-haired maid of the most exquisite mold, and provides an unusual respite from the cold North. She packs her tiny shop with a bewildering array of herbs, candles, ointments, and salves, food, jewelry, perfumes, incense, and the usual assortment of such cerebral concoctions behind shimmering curtains and beaded hangings.

Running Stables

A number of shopkeeps share this fenced enclosure named after the Celduin (River Running) and maintained by Brander (Fiery Sword). The barn is fully enclosed and has large double doors in the wall. Inside are a storage area and stalls for a dozen animals. An upstairs loft stores hay and grain. There is a ladder in the middle of the west wall to provide access to the loft from inside the building. There are also small doors at both ends of the loft for moving hay and grain into or out of the loft. They are available for sale or rental from the inn. The horses are normally draft-types.

Here's an NPC I created for our game, which we ended up not using in the end. If anyone likes the guy, feel free to grab him.


Brísindre - ("Shiny/Sparkling") A very proud (sometimes too proud. He certainly thinks a lot about himself) man from Dale. He's not native to the place, he wasn't born in Dale, Esgaroth or the near villages, but rather came to the town when he was about 12. Probably a sole survivor of a raid on a woodsmen settlement, but he doesn't talk about the past. Nobody knows his real name and he just calls himself Brísindre. He's very handsome and beside being a very good archer (it's a matter or prestige among young men in Dale) he's also a poet and a singer. He cares a lot about his appearance and only his success with singing for wealthy men and women of the town allows him to wear expensive clothes - his favourite is a tunic so richly embroided with golden and silver thread it looks like it's made of shiny metal. (it's dwarven made and it actually protects the wearer like light armour)
Beside a longbow he carries a long straight knife and a buckler.
He's always looking for inspiration for songs, a great saga if possible. He might even join the players just because it seems interesting and adventurous enough.

This post has been edited by Jan Pospisil on Jan 29 2012, 02:11 PM

You've developed Brísindre well - he's just the type of player-hero or Loremaster character that fleshes-out our games. Thank you!

Mim, I really like Harold and Torwald. There could be seriously good comic potential with that pair.
Why is the Blacksmith's shop known as 'The Hen and Chickens' though?

Brisindre is pretty cool too and every band of heroes needs someone to write and sing about their adventures.

Thank you for the kind words!

Concerning Harold & Torwald, we often have so much of the dark brooding Norse thing going on with Middle-earth, that I like to take a cue from the professor's excellent sense of humor & throw a few laughs in from time-to-time .

Regarding The Hen and Chickens, Knut has shifted his calling (as it were) into the innkeep, which I may not have made clear in the text. He has thus changed the name from just a dull ole blacksmith's shop in order to attract business. He simply cannot compete with the Dwarves, except in regards to minimal horseshoe work & such, which the Dwarves rarely stoop to accomplish .

His selection of the name derives from a local Dalish tale concerning a hen & some chickens in a pen belonging to Lord Girion. These animals purportedly sensed the onrush of Smaug & unsuccessfully attempted to warn the Men of Dale by scampering about & generally raising a fuss. The most reliable tales, however, explain that the dragon caught the Men thereabouts unawares, so it appears to be naught more than a dash of local humor...

Ah, I see now. I take it that the chickens of the title are a use of the old fashioned terminology for chicks? If so, nice, I haven't heard it used for many years.

Typically perceptive of you!

I hesitated to go any further into the explanations at the risk of crossing the line & offending any of our fellow readers, as it were .

Frithalf of Buhr Wenjan

Frithalf is the 48 year old Chieftain of the Horsefolk village of Buhr Wenjan, which lies in the shadow of East Ridge, some three days journey south of Dale. He stands almost six feet tall but would probably be taller were it not for his bow legged gait, typical of his people. He has bright blue eyes and tawny coloured hair, greying at the temples and in his beard. Unlike the Bardings of Dale his folk tend to favour facial hair.
His people were among the first to swear fealty to King Bard and this is a source of great pride to him. Since Smaug had scattered the folk of Dale, the Horsefolk had been raising their stock and selling trained horses to the fractious Lords of the Running and Redwater Valleys. Now, with the return of a King to the north, there would be a need for good horseflesh and for warriors to train the new horsemen. In the three years since Lord Frithalf took his oath of allegiance, his folk have grown wealthy. His riders wear coats of dwarfish mail and rings of hacksilver adorn their arms. The womenfolk tie back their hair with threads of gold. In return, the King has gained a fledgling force of Horsemen trained and captained by a half dozen warriors of Frithalf's own clan. These warriors include his youngest son, Frithigern and his nephew, Frithismund.
Other voices scoff that his loyalty was bought with coin, but Frithalf cares not. Coin may well have bought his oath, but now that it is given it will be honoured.
Frithalf can be encountered at Buhr Wenjan for most of the year. His age mean that he is not so useful at herding on the plains these days. Instead, he leaves that business to Fritheric,his eldest son.
He can be encountered at Dale during the autumn months when he, Fritheric and other men of Buhr Wenjan bring broken horses to the stables of the King's Horse.
The Dalefolk usually try to lock up their daughters when the riders come to town. There is no little jealousy and antipathy toward them from the locals. They do cut quite a dash though and the King regards only the men of his own guard more highly.

Well, well, well, first you turn some of the Northmen into reavers & now the Dalemen hide their daughters when the Horsefolk ride into town .

Seriously though, I've been enjoying your work on this topic & look forward to more. You describe Frithalf admirably & he fits nicely into stories concerning this region/timeframe - I especially like the idea of using him as the leader of his riders & as a possible trainer of more (great plot device).

Not to drop more work on you but do you plan on completing your description of Buhr Wenjan & posting the village?

Good stuff .

Here is the final version!

The Quiet Wife
Owners: Ronald & Hulda

• The sign for this inn has a picture of a stylized tombstone and grave.
• Ronald is a middle-aged Barding who opened his inn in Dale after moving up from Esgaroth.
• The inn serves soft drinks and food, and provides lodging in the form of twelve private rooms, six shared rooms, and one large common room.
• Ronald is assisted in running the inn by his wife, Hulda, and their two daughters, Ronalda and Kelda. Hulda is a high-spirited woman who does not tolerate slights to herself or her family. It is quite clear to any observer that Hulda is in charge at the inn. So, it is somewhat amusing that the inn possesses its name as "the wife" here is far from quiet! Ronalda and Kelda, are cheerful young women: Ronalda recently married a guardsman and Kelda is in her mid-teens.

Fraeg Stonesplitter & Son, Fine Toymakers Since III 2563
Owners: Fraeg Stonesplitter & Frár

• This business is located on the original plot of land that it did before Smaug sacked Erebor and Dale ... a fact Fraeg proudly announces by displaying the original deed on the wall! Fraeg's grandfather managed to save the deed while fleeing the city and the family kept it safe for over 170 years until Erebor was reclaimed.
• Fraeg, a Dwarf, is a metalsmith ... his son, Frár, is a woodworker ... combined they can create nearly any toy of which you can think (e.g., puppets, wind-up toys, miniatures & figurines, multi-sided dice, thumb toys, climbing toys, push toys, pull toys, tops, puzzle toys, building blocks, merry go rounds, pendulum toys, string toys, jumping jack toys, dolls, doll houses and accessories, baby toys and accessories [cradles, etc.], wagons & carts, toy horns & drums, ornaments, etc.). Despite providing what is, essentially, a luxury product, business is thriving!
• Both Dwarves actually reside in rooms over the business. The storefront is modest in size featuring many examples of their toys, but with only a few that are for immediate sale. They primarily take orders for their toys and craft their toys according to the order. Toy complexity, of course, determines the amount of time it takes to actually deliver the order, but Fraeg has a reputation for very fast delivery. Neither he nor his son are ones to sit idle. The remaining space of their land is taken up by workrooms and a stockyard for storage. Deliveries of metal ingots (primarily copper, tin and iron) from Dwarven associates and wooden planks (some quite exotic) from both Men and Elves are accepted at the back gate of the stockyard nearly every week.

Hi Mim, I do intend to present a little more information about Buhr Wenjan sometime soon. I'm also working on the Blurbs for my Horsefolk backgrounds as well as a reworking of their rewards and virtues.
I've also been working on the Dalish exile communities of Ironhold and Shieldwall. One is on the Carnen, the other on the Redwater. Their Lord's are Ulfstan and Torskel 'Raven' and one is more open to the idea of a King in Dale than the other.
I'm using straightforward English names for these communities(mirroring Dale and Laketown). This is to emphasise the different culture of the Horsefolk who cling to their old fashioned pseudo Gothic naming rituals in an effort to retain a separate identity.
Also, there's a bandit/river ruffian community called Hidey Hole.

That should keep me going for a few months.


Throrsgold, very nice expansions on your two s. Love the irony of the Quiet Wife.

'Bump'

Tensen,

There may be a few of these s that you may find suitable for you map.