After the Marsh Bell my players accepted the quest to bring the message to the Eagle King. After a long journey through Mirkwood (Don't leave the Path) they travelled along Anduin and found two dead Beornings in a boat (Kinstrife & Dead Tidings). They brought the bodies to Beorn who, during his nightly walk, found and killed twelve orcs. Now, my questions are these:

1. What kind of orcs did he encounter? As they come from the East I guess they are from Mordor. Correct?

2. If so, they ought to wear the Eye of Sauron as an emblem on their shields and helmets, and the question is: Do my players (those with Shadow lore) know its meaning?

Looking forward hearing what you have to say!

They could be orcs from the mountains of Mirkwood.

Also, at this point, Sauron hasn't openly declared himself (and he has just given up residence in Dol Guldur) so they probably wouldn't wear any symbols related to Sauron.

They could wear the symbol of the red eye, but noone knows what it means. This is before Sauron takes on the Eye persona, I believe. As the Necromancer he was a dark spirit. Maybe this is the first sightings of the red eye? Did Sauron use the same symbol in earlier times?

Valarian,
Actually Sauron might be in his "Eye persona" at this time, but hiding it. We know, re-appearing in Middle-earth after the Battle of the Dagorlad, he fails to take a fair form. But we don't know what that means exactly. Maybe he's got some physical imperfection that remains despite any attempted change to his form. So he can appear as a giant bat - with a flaming eye. Or a man - with a flaming eye. Or a tortoise - with a flaming eye. So he cannot evade or hide his deformity. All he can do is keep himself physically remote from others to prevent them from recognizing him through that deformity.

However, we also don't know whether Sauron retains the ability to shape-change at will. Because this inability to completely control his own form may be an indication that this imperfect form is the last one that Sauron can, or has the power to, assume.


All,
I don't believe their is any known date for the appearance of the Eye of Sauron as an heraldic emblem / motif.

Manifesting recently, it is noted that Sauron could no longer assume a fair form. But that statement leaves a lot of detail to be desired. Some folks have assumed it means that Sauron appears as a Man or Elf - but an ugly one. Others think Sauron's physical manifestation was literally only an eye. Others think he is some seriously malformed being. Tolkien provides no details.

Anyway, I mention this simply because it is assumed that with this recent failure to acquire a fair form, the Eye of Sauron motif somehow becomes pertinent at this time, as opposed to any other.

Personally I do not recall seeing anything about the adoption of this heraldic motif. But honestly I wasn't really looking.


Kind of having nothing to do with nothing....
BTW, Personally I am presently favoring a bit of a Sweeney Todd: "... and his eye was odd" form for Sauron. That is, Sauron probably appeared in a marred form, specifically including a mal-formed eye. The rest of him... I'm not sure.

Beautiful except for the eye might be particularly appropriate as the juxtaposition of his otherworldly physical perfection and beauty along with a horribly disfigured eye would preclude any attempt at subterfuge. The perfection of his face and form denies mortality, but the terrible eye denies immortality (in the form of Elven lineage) as well.

Particularly if Sauron actually had a flaming eye. Perhaps a bit like Ghost Rider; an eyeball made of fire itself, but with flames exceeding the eye-socket's space. These flames constantly burning the surrounding flesh, with a bit of bone from the cheek and eye-ridge showing throw. Not to mention the constant smell of cooking flesh...

(Hey! Maybe that is why Orcs are cannibals! They are constantly tempted by the smell of barbecue, but never get that urge fulfilled!)


Anyway, everything here (except my protestations of ignorance) are complete guesses on my part. Use, abuse or throw away as pertains to your need.

LOL and blecch! at the same time.
Good stuff Garn. I also think that fiery eyes with flames licking out of sockets is a cool look.

That said, for sake of chat (not debate) my interpretation of Sauron, circa War of The Ring is that he's more spirit now than anything, as he lost power each time he was defeated - the one thing anchoring his spirit in Ea now is that dastardly Ring!
The only physical manifestation he is now capable of is the Flaming Eye at Barad Dur, otherwise he would've strode forth at The Battle of Morannon - regardless of how ugly he looked.
"What are y'all looking at? So I'm having a bad eye day!"

If Sauron's decrepit, ruined body still exists then it lays in a dark fane under Barad Dur - physically inactive but spiritually brooding, emanating his shadowy presence and reaching out via his dark mentalism to subtly encourage ill deeds, control his minions & drive his evil plots.
Bwahahahaha!

Tolkien is not asolutely clear about the time of Sauron's physical re-incarnation in the Third Age. It may be as early as about TA 1000, when he first takes up an abode in Dol Guldur (then this physical form would be quite weak of course), and at the very latest in TA 2851 when Gandalf confirms his physical return.
In any case, at TOR's timeframe, he is fully incarnated (see below for form) without doubt.

The Flaming Eye "not-physical incarnation" is a misconception created by the movies, Sauron's form was that of a terrible humanoid of superhuman size. The Eye was Sauron's symbol and other peoples' perception of his presence/search when he uses his osanwe ability to see things from far away (i.e. in the spiritual world).

Cheers
Tolwen

I seem to remember somewhere about the wizards thinking that it was one of the Nazgul that had taken up residence in Dol Guldor and had darkened the Greenwood, rather than Sauron himself. It was only later, through Gandalf's investigations that they learn that the dark spirit in Dol Guldor is Sauron, rather than a Nazgul.

I too see Sauron as more of a dark and brooding presence, perhaps taking a broken physical form in Mordor. Sauron (I believe) is a shapechanger, taking other physical forms (bat, wolf) in the Silmarilion. After the fall of Numenor, he was no longer able to assume a fair form that would fool Men or Elves.

I don't think it's clear on whether the form taken in Mirkwood or in Mordor was a physical form at all. I agree with CheeseWyrm that the form is more of a broken, though still powerful, dark spirit. The flaming eye is not physical but how he is perceived as his mental abilities touches others. Perhaps through he is only now able to give commands through mental communication, giving the orcs and his other servants the vision of the eye.

I may be remembering this wrong and I don't have the book to hand but I seem to recall Gollum mentioning the hand of Sauron at some point when he is alluding to his capture and torture in Mordor.

Like I said I might be remembering it wrong.

Okay, I know we're not trying to debate, but just wanted to point out a potential problem with the spirit-like Sauron concept.

Tolkien makes a point of mandating that any of the Ainur must take physical form in the world in order to affect or interact with the world. Even the Valar (and Morgoth) are subject to this limitation. Otherwise, all of Arda would just be equivalent to "DivineTV" - look, but no interaction.

The only divine being not subject to this limitation is Eru himself as seen by his casting Numenor down upon request while not embodied in Arda.

By all means ignore this if it doesn't work for your intended Middle-earth campaign.


PS: I should mention that I try to make others aware when they are deviating from things we know about Middle-earth. Not as a "I know better" issue, but so that you are not hampered somewhere farther down the product release(s) when SG/C7 makes these issues relevant to the game. Forcing you either to invalidate some of the Company's history or having to create some new, underlying mechanism or storyline to support what you did. If you are aware of an issue and choose to do something differently, that is perfectly fine. You did so knowing what the potential issues were right from the start. It's your game, play it anyway you like so that you get the most enjoyment.

Fair and accurate comments Garn, you hit the nail on the head.

And Poosticks rightly mentions Gollum's traumatised recollection of Sauron's hand (I don't even want to go there!)

So I think we can mostly be in accord anyway, in that Sauron may physically exist but his wasted form now serves him poorly on the big stage, so it generally remains sequestered in his tower and he manipulates the fate of Middle Earth through sorcery and mentalism.

Question - when the White Council drove The Necromancer from Dol Guldur, did it actually come to a physical confrontation? Did The Necromancer end up fleeing in shadowy-spirit form?

Is there any evidence to be found that is supporting this that I may have missed? I'm asking on the same line as Garn (i.e. not 'to be right', but to get the best information that is given to us by Tolkien - regardless whether actually uses this or not), and haven't seen anything that supports the notion of Sauron being physically weak or "disabled".

IMO it is very likely he escaped in physical fiorm (e.g. through a secret escape tunnel). This image of Sauron the Dark Lord running away may not be very "fantasy-like" or heroic, but IMO it's the most likely. Sauron has long prepared for this moment, so the escape is not improvised but carefully prepared and orchestrated. He made sure that he took no chances with his chosen escape plan/route and it went all fine and acording to his plans.

Since Tolkien says us that Saruman provided the means to expel Sauron, and Saruman having long studied the weapons of the Enemy it is quite likely that there was a real fight in and at Dol Guldur. Perhaps Sauron made sure that his enemies saw him and noticed his flight to give them the impression of a "real" victory as opposed to the false one it really was. In any case I am sure he took great care to avoid a real fight himself, since he was very aware of the vulnerability of his physical form (even if it was by mannish and elven standards very strong and powerful) and the power it cost him to make himself a new one - especially without the One.
Sauron was a planner, politician and schemer - not a warrior. Whenever possible, he avoided a physical confrontation himself and worked through guile, deception and underlings. His performance in combats where he himself participated is not very impressive, which IMO strengthens his mediocrity (relatively speaking for a Maia) in combat skills.

Cheers
Tolwen

CheeseWyrm,

I kind of agree, in a generalize way. This is the first and last known attempt by Sauron to obtain a fair form that we known of for certain. However, I've begun to wonder if the Ruling Ring's actions were not a drain on Sauron's remaining power.

Sauron crafted the Ruling Ring and placed within it the greater portion of his personal power. I've begun wondering if the link between these two didn't have additional ramifications. For instance, as an enchanted item, the ring might have a finite amount of power and, being far more sentient and capable than we think, it might have used Sauron as a sort of living battery. Assume each act of evil in the world adds a tiny bit of energy - yet it takes Sauron a millenia to re-form. Mankind just isn't that good; that seems far too long of a time period. Perhaps the Ruling Ring is draining Sauron of energy to fuel it's own efforts at hiding and evasion? At some point the Ring realizes that enough evil is being committed in the world, despite it's drain, to leave Sauron with a constant increase in available magical energy. Thus making it aware that Sauron will be re-forming shortly.

Pure conjecture, but a thought.

(And it would have worked quite well with my lost Necromancer info. Wherein I postulated that part of the reason that Sauron is gone from Middle-earth so long is not that Isuldur destroyed Sauron's physical form. But rather that Isuldur's attack would have struck the Ruling Ring and, to save itself, the Ring expended power to deflect that attack without any consideration of damage to Sauron. Thus Sauron is attacked with a double-strength attack - once by a magical blade and again by his own Ring. Completely theoretical.)

It depends on what you mean by a physical confrontation. If you mean did Good creatures physically engage in combat with Evil creatures, yes. Dol Guldur is a fortress and some physical confrontation would have taken place. If you mean did Sauron personally engage in a physical or sorcerous duel, I think it is very doubtful.

I always took it to mean that as Good was pushing its way into Dol Guldur's front door, Sauron had just recently left (taking any and all definitive evidence of his presence) out and away from Dol Guldur via the back door. Magic usage might have revealed who he was (per Gandalf's reference to magical signatures when lighting the fire at Caradhras).

(Actually, I postulated that Sauron returns to Middle-earth originally as a depleted spirit, watching things for a long while. Trying - and failing - to create a physical form, he chose to take possession of someone so he could determine what was happening through experimentation [again, must have a physical form to interact with the world]. Thus the Necromancer "started" as a legitimate and quite real Easterling magic-user who Sauron suckers into allowing him control in exchange for power. In this manner any of the Wise researching the Necromancer can actually find a true and real history for him - provided you ignore, or are ignorant of, the possession. Once again, in the lost Necromancer papers, and complete conjecture on my part)


Tolwen,

Actually I wonder if this is the other way around. I think PJ used this motif because so many people thought this was Sauron's physical form.

And I totally agree with your later comment about Sauron having previously planned an escape from Dol Guldur. As you state, Sauron is a master schemer, aware that as he worked toward re-gaining strength he would also gain the attention of the Wise. Having piqued their interest an exploratory mission by the Wise is obvious. But if Sauron is not ready to reveal himself at that time, he has to engage in some means of avoiding a major confrontation as well as obfuscating his true nature. The Necromancer, as a less capable mage than most of the Wise, would run from such a conflict. By doing so he actually helps strengthen the idea that the Necromancer is not Sauron.


Valarian,

Yes, they did. In the beginning of the Necromancer's presence within Mirkwood there was some thought that one of the Nazgul was operating in Mirkwood, rather than Sauron. I've imagined that gives some indication of the relative power level the Necromancer displayed as a mage. That is, he was only operating at a percentage of his normal maximum power - and that percentage placed him under the Witch-king's strength level (because they think its any Nazgul, not the Witch-king).


Poostick7,
I just took a quick look through the Council of Elrond chapter and didn't find any reference to Sauron's hand. Maybe it was somewhere else? Or was it from the movie?

The supposition that Sauron obfuscates his nature to the Wise at or shortly before the attack on Dol Guldur has one major issue with the timeline as told by Tolkien in Appendix B of the LotR. In TA 2850 Gandalf goes to Dol Guldur and beyond any doubt he reveals that "The Necromancer" is indeed Sauron Redivivus (to use Tolkien's own words in the Letters). Thus, by the time of The Hobbit, the Wise know for more than 90 years that"The Necromancer" is indeed Sauron. They did not release this knowledge to the broad public though... Their assault on Dol Guldur is not against an ambiguous evil entity, but consciously against the Lord of the Rings. And vice versa, Sauron is aware of their knowledge as well. Thus the attack takes place in full knowledge of each other's intelligence, making it an interesting gambit of wits, and Sauron really is able to make his enemies believe that he (as the returned and embodied Sauron) genuinely fled before their attack. It is 10 years later that they find out that all this was a clever sham to deceive them.

Cheers
Tolwen

Wow .... a can of wyrms!

Hmmm, OK .... I surmise this to be the case as Sauron takes no physical role in LoTR. He doesn't even appear at the very last when the ring reaches Orodruin, nor when the (good) wolves are at his gate.
@Tolwen appears to concur here:

That is really my gist - that his form is wasted to the point that he takes no active physical role in his machinations.
My evidence? Just my understanding of LoTR really - wherein Sauron is not described as participating in any scenes in a physical sense. Surely he would've if he could've.
Others (can't attest to their accuracy though) seem to agree -
"fewer still remembered a time when Sauron walked openly under the light. Elrond perhaps...
maybe a few others. At the time of the last War of the Ring the Nameless One like his Servants the Nazgul had no form under the light of day... only a shadow that stretched out in his infinite desire for domination over all of Middle Earth."
http://thelandofshadow.com/mordorgate/2darkservants/sauron/saurontext1.htm

To my knowledge Sauron was never again seen in person by Free Folk since, as The Necromancer, he was driven from Dol Guldur.
I agree with @Tolwen & @Garn that Sauron would've avoided a physical confrontation, due to his wasted (as I wrote) or vulnerable (as per @Tolwen) form.

Yes @Garn - I meant by my question to ascertain if Tolkien actually stated anywhere that The Necromancer was defeated in a physical confontation. Myself - I had not come across any such reference, so I'm still of the opinion that he was at most a shadowy figure seen to flee.
Hence I see no real proof that Sauron had an active physical form since his fall at the end of the Second Age. Yes - he may have taken a physical form, but he didn't seem to employ it, other than to be seen to flee. (That said- I figure his sorcery could have easily accounted for any sightings he desired anyway).

Aye, I'm well aware that Sauron had well planned his escape route. It is my understanding that his occupation of Dol Guldur in Necromancer-guise served a few major purposes:
- to maintain his search for The One Ring
- to keep tabs on Lothlorien, etc
- as a sophisticated ruse to distract the Wise from his primary activity - the surreptitious resumption of rebuilding & re-arming of Mordor.
So, when the White Council decided enough was enough and evicted The Necromancer - he secretly fled to Barad-Dur to commence his next play - preparation for his final declaration and powerplay (declaration T.A 2951)

Well Khamul was later deployed to command Dol Guldur after Sauron declared his presence again in Mordor, so perhaps he previously commanded & prepared it for the arrival of The Necromancer .... who knows???

Well, 'tis fun & rigorous discourse. I too don't profess to be an authority - just a fan, so please take my comments with the proverbial grain of Nurnian salt.
So back to @Shugal's original thread-question:
I don't think Mordor orcs would've been recognised, nor have displayed The Eye, until Sauron declared his presence again in T.A.2951 (as per @BBarlow). I think The Wise would've cottoned-on to that symbol.
So yes - your Orcs are likely to be from the Mtns of Mirkwood, or rogue bands surviving in Wilderland since Bo5A.

Phew ... Game on!

As for the moment when it was suspected that The Necromancer could have been Sauron, this can be pinpointed as well: In TA 2063 Gandalf goes to Dol Guldur the first time to discern the identity of "The Necromancer". In Appendix B it is stated that he does this since the Wise fear or suspect that "The Necromancer" might be really Sauron (and not just a Nazgûl). This implies IMO that there has been enough evidence for the Wise to surmise this. Garn's theory about the displayed "power level" might be helpful, i.e. Sauron displayed enough "power" (in whatever form) to make the Wise believe this was claerly above the ability of one or more Nazgûl. Consequently, Sauron evaded Gandalf and hid for almost 400 years in the East.

With respect to Sauron's "wasted" physical appearance, his reluctance to engage in a personal combat does not originate in the - objective - weakness of this form, but even the slight possibility that he may lose it in the fight.
As a Maia, he was able to re-create his body after the defeat at the hands of the Last Alliance, though without the One it took him very long. Such re-embodiment is a resourceful process and not undertaken lightly. Fallen Ainur that follow Morgoth's path need a physical body to interact with the physical world, but its continued use makes it habitually for them - different from the "faithful" Ainur, who use it only sparingly and thus may discard it like we may discard (or pick up) clothing. For this reason, the greater of the fallen Ainur are aware of the possibility of losing the beloved (and hard to replace) body. It does not matter whether there is really a realistic chance of losing it. By mannish and elven standards, all of the evil Ainur's bodies (Balrogs, Morgoth, Sauron) are extremely tough, resilient and enduring - far beyond the abilities of the Incarnated. But since they are made from the stuff of the Earth, they may be destroyed when enough firepower is directed against it.

This is the reason why both Morgoth and Sauron were very reluctant (at all times) to voluntarily enter personal combat. When Morgoth and Sauron did, their record was far from impressive, underlining their own assessments. The Balrogs were different. In mind, they were far more simple than Sauron or his master and Morgoth's "bullies". This can be seen in their frequent appearance on the battlefields of the First Age.

Or in other words, despite the prowess of their physical presence (e.g. Sauron in the late Third Age), they (the Dark Lords) were cowards when faced with the possibility of physical damage. Thus they let others do the dangerous work. In concept, they were not "heroic" antagonists in the sense of evil champions entering the fray, but modern politicians, directing and acting from safety. Even Sauron's combat on Orodruin was forced upon him. The Last alliance had him pinned like a rat in a hole, and he had no other options left than to fight himself.

And Sauron was not on Orodruin when he noticed Frodo, since he was caught completely by surprise by the events. The Dark Tower was his control center, and physically going from there to Orodruin took too long to manage the immediate crisis. Thus he sent the Nazgûl on their winged beasts, who could get there much faster than he. In a letter, Tolkien speculates what would have happened if it ran well for Sauron. Then the Nazgûl would have stalled Frodo on Orodruin, cutting him "gently" off from the Cracks of Doom to prevent any accidental damage to the One (intentional one was impossible in any case). Then Sauron would have come in person to claim (and get!) the One from Frodo. The latter would have stood not the slightest chance to resist Sauron in this.

Cheers
Tolwen

Tolwen,
Thanks for the correction Tolwen. I find that around those periods where Gandalf forks his adventures, I tend to get a bit murky about the timing of events. So the Dol Guldur visit in the Hobbit and the Saruman incarceration in LOTR will trip me up if I don't make a point of re-checking the Timeline. This time, I foobarred.

Kind of like, IRL, where your mental clock has lost a day and, despite periodic correction from those around you, most of the day goes by with you still thinking Today (Wednesday) was Yesterday (Tuesday).


Cheesewyrm,
Pick an Orc, any Orc? But I agree that it can be almost any orc tribe - particularly if you assume the heraldic device they use is an outright lie.

Orc: "Yes, yes. We are the Orcs of Khand. Can't you see the symbol of our people, a pile of sand, on our shields?"
Man: "Oh, sorry. I thought that meant you were from Miami."
Orc: "Ah! Well-" he says while taking a quick look around, "we are really, but we're on vacation and we're supposed to keep it a secret! You're pretty smart!"
Man: (blushing) "Well, I- ACK!"
Orc: "You're also dead. Move out Boys!"

I wondered whether to go into this a little while ago, when I looked through Words of the Wise and saw the eye-motif brooch on the shoulder of the orc on p.5.

I wouldn't have thought the Lidless Eye symbol should come into usage until Sauron declares himself in Mordor.
I think it owes its inspiration to his use of the palantir originally of Minas Ithil; whether he might have had this in Dol Guldur can probably only be debated by trying to infer something from the timing of Saruman's moral decline...

But I didn't want to post just to greet Words of the Wise with a quibble, so I kept this to myself back then.

Cheers,
--Os

I certainly agree that Sauron has remained incarnated in physical form since he felt strong enough to do so in circa TA 1000.
Since he fell below a certain 'moral' threshold (like Morgoth himself, who could not reshape himself to lose the injury to the foot inflicted on him by Fingolfin or the talon-scars to the face that Thorondor gave him), Sauron could not freely change his fana body, or cast it off and assume a new one, but lost permanent strength each time.
Also, it took an increasingly long time to assume a new form each time round. So given his 'prompt' declaration in Mordor, I don't think he can possibly have abandoned his physical form in fleeing Dol Guldur.

But, Garn, I think you overstate the case, here:

I do think that the Valar and Maiar have the power to affect the physical world without having to be embodied to do it. Whilst we have the example of Melian:
... and in that form [of an Elf] she [Melian] ‘gained a power over the substance of Arda, and by the Girdle of Melian was Doriath defended through long ages from the evils without.
– OF THE RUIN OF DORIATH, SILM.
I think the gain was a matter of degree, not a category-change to gain a power that was otherwise not possible.

Opinions and supposition aside, the only definite evidence I can draw upon to defend this position is this reference to the disembodied Sauron bearing his Ring out from the sinking of Numenor and back to Middle-earth.
Though reduced to 'a spirit of hatred borne on a dark wind', I do not think one need boggle at this spirit carrying off the One Ring, upon which his power of dominating minds now largely depended.
- LETTERS p. 280 (bold emphasis mine)

Cheers,
--Os.

Osric,
Those are relevant points and ones that I was not specifically aware of.

I was thinking of Eru's comment to the Valar as they sought to enter the world and he tells them they must take form in order to act in and interact with the world (Silmarillion). Supported by the requirement for a fea to have a form in order to interact in the world.