For all you regulars out there, you will be aware that a few of us are designing a Horsefolk/Proto Rohirric culture for TOR.
In order to design backgrounds, I am looking for thoughts on the make up of the Muster of Rohan AKA the Eothere.

Here are my thoughts.

Before the Eotheod, an Eored(Horse Company) could contain any number of riders. This was then standardised to 120 men per Eored when the Eotheod became the Rohirrim/Eorlingas.
A single Eored comprises the 1/100th part of the entire muster meaning that the Eohere represents 12,000 mounted warriors.
So far, so text book. But what is the reality? Is the Muster so well organised that there are exactly 120 men to each Eored. Are there really 100 such company's?
Does the muster represent the professional fighting elite of Rohan or almost the entirety of it's manpower? Are there infantry forces? How many? The muster does not include the Kings Knights, does it include the lightly armed horse archers in it's numbers? How many Kings Knights are there?How many horse archers are there?

My own thoughts are that as few as 10% of the Eored's are professional full time warriors in the retinue of a Lord or Marshall and garrisoning strongholds like the Hornburg etc. The rest of the host would comprise a mounted militia raised in similar manner to the Anglo Saxon Fyrd and divided into Eored's at the place of muster. Each Eored would then be placed under the command of the most experienced warrior.
This means that warriors of the muster are civilians with normal day jobs for the bulk of the time.
Regarding infantry, the Horse and cavalry warfare is so ingrained in the national psyche that infantry forces are disdained. Only the poorest of Rohirrim warriors have no horse and no Lord willing to provide one. I would imagine that infantry are greatly outnumbered by cavalry, perhaps by as many as three to one.

Thought's anyone?

(Tolwen, I know you are hiding around here somewhere.)

Damn you Halbarad I am supposed to be working on a paper!
No army at any time has ever had the men that they either wanted or organized as perfectly as they hoped.

Take a look at the Unfinished Tales pp383-386 in my copy. The section is The Battle of the Fords of Isen Appendix (i)

Quick thoughts, the Marshalls and captians would have their Household troops on hand and would be the nucleus of their personal units.

I see the muster of Rohan looking a lot like a 10th century Angles and Saxon warband as well. Just everyone is mounted...

Each Eored would be divided by region i would imagine so that everyone was under the command of their own lords. ie Yeah great your a Marshall...I dont live in the West March ride over to someone else.

LOL Tel....
Sorry man, should've realised that you wouldn't be able to resist getting involved.

I know that there s a lot of stuff in the appendices and that UT as great sources for insight in the Fords of Isen chapter but, as ever, some of the info is open to interpretation.

The main thing is that, I think we both agree that 12000 men in 100 Eored's is a little unlikely.

What about the infantry contingent? In UT , Grimbold garrisons the forts at the Fords with men on foot from the Westfold Levy. He later reinforces them by dismounting 50 men of his own Eored. Were these levy's on foot actually dismounted riders or were they 'actual' Rohirric infantrymen?
Is there any indication of how many of them there were or how they were equipped. Is there a historical analogy we can use?

Alfred the Great actually rearranged the Anglo Saxon Fyrd into a professiona, 'mounted', standing army. Admittedly, it is likely that they actually still fought on foot.

Do you think that the concept of a mounted militia army with a professional core rings true for the Rohirrim?

I think the UT, the role 'Captains' played with thier companies speaks highly of mounted household troops and the Kings mounted force. I also believe that the foot infantry of the Rohirrim is often under represents. My beleif being that the forst and archers to me speak to dismounted elements but I'll have to dig into Two Towers a bit to speak in stronger terms.

From the top of my head, I'd say it's only the part which has a horse or a hotrse could be delivered by the "state".

Perhaps the problem could be approached by another vector. In size, Rohan is comparable to the Hungarian Plains. I once read (I'll have to dig up the exact reference), that due to a number of circumstances, this area was capable of supporting probably about 15,000 horse nomads (perhaps one reason why this area never was able to support large armies of this type).
The Rohirrim are the closest what we get like horse-nomads in Middle-earth, so I deem the comparison useful. In this context, the figure above matches quite well with the theoretical 12,000 riders Théoden speaks of.

So I would regard these 12,000 as the potential cavalry muster of Rohan, with more infantry warriors as well. Due to their culture, the horse-warriors would probably hold more prestige though.

And here I am - tadaaaa!




Best
Tolwen

I agree with that to a certain extent. I dont think the Erolingas were that nomadic though. They seem more like settled horse breedres than migrating between water and grass spots. Thats just a feel I get.

You're right. I was using the nearest surrogate I could get that might fit in a wider sense.

The estimate is rather conservative though. The steppe horses were rather small and very tough, being able to survive in the rough climate of the steppe and feed more or less only by grazing.
The Rohirrim horses seem to be quite big (e.g. bred that way), and this can only be accomplished by feeding a large amount of "artificial" high-energy fodder like grain (the real-world western horses of the armies that faced the steppe nomades were similar). Having such an intermediate step in between loses a lot of energy, necessitating a greater area to get this from (e.g. by agriculture). In adition, this makes the horses and men competitors for the grain.

As a rough estimate, even with the big Rohan horses, I'd say that the 12,000 still represents the maximum sustainable number of cavalrymen of the Rohirrim.

Best
Tolwen

Tolwen,
Having a large agricultural investment and labor needs would help to give weight to not only Rohirrim expansion into the West Marches, and provide a manpower base for foot infantry.

High prairie grass (as I imagine the plains of Rohan anyways) is high enough in energy/fat/proteins to sustain large horses all year round if you can manage to stock it for the off season(s). Grains become an advantage when you need to travel far and fast; grazing can be time consuming and grain has a high energy/space ratio. I'd have to ask my wife for more details; we have a few horses on our property and she works as a hoof trimmer (and health of hooves being directly connected to the horse's diet)...

Also, you can feed more animals per square acres with grain than grass, which becomes an advantage if space is limited. I don't have the impression that such is an issue in Rohan however.

While I never pictured the rohirim as a nomadic people, I could imagine ranchers having wide territories, sometimes taking their herds grazing for days before coming back to the farm (especially in the east). I could see the west marches more agricultural. I recall that in The Two Towers, it is described how the men of Helm's Deep could see Saruman's army from afar as they were setting the rohirim's farms afire as they came.

Glorfindel

This seems relevant

though I'm not sure what he's referring to.

http://middle-earth.xenite.org/2011/12/14/...hu-theoden-hal/

Doe anyone know where that quote from Michael Martinez originates?

I suppose that what I am trying to draw out here is an idea of who the infantrymen would be and man there might be of them.
I like the idea the idea that the areas designated as 'marks' might be free range land for horse and cattle herding, whereas the areas designated as 'folds' might be agricultural regions.
This would probably indicate that the bulk of any non mounted forces would reside in the 'folds'.
The point about the Guards at Helm's Deep being able to see farms burning might seem to support this, as noted by Glorfindel.

Do you guys agree that, in theory, only a small minority of Eored's would be retained on a permanent basis as House Troops and that the bulk are probably rotated as per the appendices in Cirion & Eorl.

For example, Erkenbrand as Lord of Westfold would retain a permanent Eored as his household troops at the Hornburg. Given the strategic import of the Hornburg this might actually be a very heavily reinforced Eored and it would probably be commanded by Grimbold. Alternatively, as Marshall of Westfold he may command his own Eored, also billeted at the Hornburg, or at his own settlement of Grimslade.
The rest of the Riders of Westfold are likely to be free farmers and their sons raised for war or short periods of service as a mounted militia or Yeomanry. Poorer tenant farmers and farm labourers might then provide the 'sturdy' infantry contingent of the Westfold Levy. I imagine that most of the farmers would be free men as opposed to tenant farmers and that the infantry component of the muster would be quite small at perhaps a quarter to a third of
the total numbers.

I think that if the ratio was lower, or that the infantry contingent outnumbers the horsemen then the total numbers of manpower start to become over burgeoning. Suddenly Saruman's ten thousand can start to look like a much less significant force and the riders risk becoming more of a prestigious elite than the backbone of the army.
Thoughts anyone?

With the number of éored being so precise it is possible that they each represented the military force of a specific district or region and had as their nucleus the retinue of a particular Lord. In addition to a permanent force of ‘royal’ éoreds assigned by the King to the Marshalls of the Mark. Thus Eomer would have an assigned portion of the Royal Army with him as a Marshall of the Mark and then be able to augment or expand upon that with his household troops and any others that he had right to command as a lord of Rohan. This explains how Grima exploits his command and disposition of his royal troops to try and put him out of favor with Theoden and accuses him of leaving Edoras undefended. The charge isn’t that he was riding around fighting Orcs, but that he moved his royal troops without permission.

In another example Erkenbrand’s force then would be those folk who owed him military allegiance or had an obligation to him personally as a Lord of the Westfold. While if he were summoned to the Muster of Rohan he would be responsible to bring a pre-determined mounted element to the Muster, men by region who were specifically called upon to fulfill that task. Could they be one in the same? Sure, but the muster is specifically for mounted men. The muster in this light could be looked at as a gathering of the “knights” of Rohan, where prestige and standing gave one the right and obligation to serve in a pre-determined éored when the Muster was called.

As another perspective to the size of the Muster of Rohan the Encyclopedia of Arda has this entry for the Muster:

The term given to the summoning together of all the Riders of Rohan, or as many as could be spared at one time. The Muster was known to the Rohirrim in their own language as an éoherë, or 'horse-army'. In principle, a full éoherë would have consisted of one hundred éoreds, themselves each consisting of 120 Riders, so that the King of Rohan would have 12,000 warriors under his command. In practice, other military needs, and also sheer logistical difficulties, meant that it was never possible to gather this many Men at one time.

Though the term 'Muster of Rohan' properly applies to the gathering of any éoherë, it is most commonly used of the Muster called by Théoden during the War of the Ring. The army he gathered did not come close to the 12,000 Riders of a Full Muster, but he still managed to gather at least six thousand Men, which was said to be the greatest army ever assembled since the founding of Rohan.

Yeah, I'm getting what you are saying Tel. I would agree whole heartedly that there are probably troops retained on a permanent basis at Edoras that might be deemed as 'Royal' troops. These, IMO are not the same as the 'Kings Company' which actually comprise the Knights of Theoden's bodyguard.
I reckon that each of the Marshalls are entitled to retain their own personal Eored (a single Eored). When we meet Eomer he only has 105 men with him of the 120 he led from Edoras. Elf helm on the other hand is the Marshall of the muster of Edoras. He is leading four companies to the Fords of Isen when we first encounter him.
Eomer clearly has no authority over the army at Edoras as he departs with only his own personal troops. Elf helm as commander of the muster at Edoras is able to draw his own Eored and three others, at short notice, to ride to Theodred's aid.
It is quite likely, as well,that Theodred leads only his own Eored when he leaves Edoras to raise the muster of the Westmark.
Assuming that Elfhelm would not and did not leave Edoras unguarded, I would say that excluding the kings company of Knights and the three Eored's of the Marshalls, that the garrison at Edoras was 6 companies of riders.(Theoden was barely able to raise a thousand men to ride to the relief of Helm's Deep and many of these were not riders as such and a hundred or more were the returned warriors of Eomer's command.)
I imagine that Elfhelm was only able to requisition these three extra companies on the grounds that Theodred himself had called for them. I imagine that if the request had come from elsewhere, then Grima might have found a way to deny it.

Back on the subject of the Rohirric infantry. Does anyone have any thoughts on their numbers? I am,as previously stated, inclined to believe that they represent only small portion of the available manpower. I believe that the Rider is not necessarily a prestige role but is, in fact, the backbone of the Rohirric army.
I believe, as also stated earlier, that only the poorest of the Rohirrim cannot afford their own horse and that, of these, the best of the fighters find employment with a Lord who provides their horse and wargear.
In short, while the infantry may be described as sturdy due to it's farm labourer composition, it is likely to be fairly ineffective and useful only to defend static points and fortifications. This seems to be the tact that Theodred used at the Fords of Isen

While I don't have anything (cannon) to back my own speculations, I'm inclined to agree that the main force of Rohan consists in its cavalry.

Rohan is vast and, we can assume, relatively sparsely settled. Farms may be more concentrated in some region, but it seems that a vast majority of the Rohirim live in a rural environment. We only know of Edoras and Dunharrow as anything that could come close to a city, and even these are described as military stations and fortresses more than centers of commerce and trade.

With such a vast territory, cavalry does not only becomes a specialty but the only way to allow the necessary mobility to protect faraway farms and ranches. This protection in turn demands youths and horses to participate in the rides and thus creates the backbone of the the Eored.

Obviously, the Eored leaders being in charge of training will also provide (and probably start with) ground combat training, thus creating an infantry army at needs and some sort of martial aristocracy (the full time warriors) vs semi-professional militia (who give a few years of a few months every years to the protection of their lands). But I can imagine that a substantial majority of the men in age of fighting have been trained to fight both from horseback and on ground, and can be horsed in time of war (even if most are not 'full time professional soldiers' and go back to their kin at least for harvestime).

Glorfindel

Therein lies the problem Glorfindel. Are the levy's who man the forts at the east and west approaches to the fords of Isen dismounted riders or are they actual infantrymen?

If they are dismounted horsemen, they are obviously not of the same quality as the riders of Grimbold's Eored who are placed among them to stiffen their resistance. I suppose there is nothing to say that the men in the forts are not simply dismounted horsemen. The horse herds being guarded by the three companies that Theodred leaves on the east bank may, in fact, be their mounts.
The 'levy' of Westfold may then simply be the term of reference for that regions muster of riders.
There may, in fact, be no Rohirric infantry worth mentioning.

To me the levy is, "Hey you! Yes you, grab a spear and get in line. Its about to get real."

Its possible that the dismounted men were riders without horses but a couple of things dissuade me of that notion. First there were forts there to guard the ford. Secondly Grimbold sends knights up to support the levy. Taken together I get the feeling that these were foot troops. The qualitative difference between levy and knight to me speaks to at the very least a training or status difference.

I still believe that a majority of Rohan-in-arms is made of cavalrymen, consisting both of "regular" knights and irregular (yet combat-trained) mounted militiamen. Forts and fortresses would be manned by foot soldiers, but apart from a few companies of archers, I'd bet that about half of them would also be riders drafted to man the forts.

I could see the Westfold receiving more training in ground-warfare however, as they play a more defensive role than other marches. It is told how Grimbold and Erkenbrand erected shield-walls and performed other defensive manoeuvers (presumably on foot). But I don't see them being less apt riders for that fact however (well, perhaps a bit less apt, but still a lot more than any infantrymen of any other nation).

I would think there would be a fair amount of pride to be part of a Eored, even as an irregular. After many generations, these irregular would become well equipped and warlike in mentality, and possibly indistinguishable from regular troops from a outsider's perspective. I don't think there was much "hey you, you're in the army now" long before Aragorn's arrival in Rohan, yet I'm sure there was after things started to look ugly at the ford of Isen. Helm's Deep was manned by many who had "seen too many winters", and other who "hadn't seen enough". It's even possible that Grima purposefully sabotaged militia drafting to weaken Rohan as a whole in these later days.

...in continuation of horse diet

Even large horse breeds can healthily sustain on grass, even if the grass itself isn't to rich. Actually, horses thrive especially on grass that isn't too rich. Wild fields will have a variety of species of grass, herbs and cereals. A herd is healthiest when it can diversify its diet, 'self-medicate' on protein-rich or poor plants, fatter cereals, higher-fiber grass etc.

Unlike cows whereas richer food = better milk, too rich of a diet (in terms of proteins, fat and starch) creates all kind of troubles for horses.

Nevertheless, supplements of oats and barley (two 'robust' and easy to grow cereals) will be necessary in times of great travel and war to make better use of time.

pride in an eored for sure. Especially of each drew on a common historic past from the Ride of Eorl.

The shield wall brings up a great point. When I was rereading it the other day I envisioned it as a dismounted maneuver with the horses gathered in the center. Like a Rohirric Waterloo Square.

IMO, Grimbold's shield wall was born of necessity and possibly even of desperation. He didn't have enough horses to mount all his men and was forced to use this tactic. If he had enough horses to provide mounts for them, the second battle at Isen would probably have been a cavalry action(rather than a defensive infantry action).
It appears, as well, that most of his men were actually the garrison troops from the forts on the west bank who were either infantrymen, or riders whose horses had been slain or driven off by Saruman's wolf riders (depending on your POV).
Under normal circumstances, even a simple schiltron can not work. Assuming that there is one horse holder for every three horses, then that leaves only eighty warriors to form the ring.
The Swine Array has possibilities but, as an offensive manoeuvre, it's use would be limited when compared to the effect of a massed charge of the whole Eored.

Tel,
I had imagined that a Levy was a little more organised than simply shoving a spear into the hand of any man who is fit to wield it. Under the Feudal Levy system, each family was required to provide a single man for military service to his Lord. I imagine that this is how the Levy works in Rohan as well. The wealthy Freehold Farmers form Eoreds of riders in the manner of a Yeomanry or the Thegns of the Anglo Saxon Fyrd.
The tenant farmers, farm labourers and husbandmen are levy'd at one man per family. The best of these warriors join the Eored's of the mounted levy on horses supplied by their Feudal Lords.
The remainder form foot companies of archers and spearmen.

Good points, and I really enjoy the different aspects brought forward in this thread. I haven't got a final opinion on the basic question and am still collecting arguments

For this specific point, you have to take into account the type of the planned campaign. The regular levy as described above (e.g. the average farmer given a spear) often only has limited military value due to lack of training and experience. They are most useful when defending their home territory or doing support duties for the army or as "fillers" for the (semi-) professional ranks in a battle.

In a campaign as the ride to Gondor, you can only take experienced riders with you who know what to do and have the experience and endurance for such a long-distance campaign (the distance covered is enormous and only achieved in the real world before mechanized warfare by some examples of mongolic campaigns). In addition, it was not only necessary to take one horse per man, but they had a lot of spare horses to change them on the way. This is reminiscent of the Mongols again, where each warrior had at least 5 horses with him on campaign. Counting the necessary investment to raise and supply a horse, this can only be done either by the more wealthy landowners, or additional horses are supplied by the state.

Another option is that several average farmers/ranchers band together, send one man with the collective horses of them all. This would already limit the available mounted warriors considerably of course.

In either case, you probably have a tendency for a warrior aristocracy (or professional, state-paid army) to slowly develop (due to the associated costs), whose primary job is war, and not only part-time warriors (and the rest of the year farmers/ranchers).

Best
Tolwen

That sounds a bit like the system employed by the Russians at the time of Ivan the Terrible, Tolwen. I think that every five families had to support a light cavalryman and every seven families had to support an armoured horseman. Can't remember the exact figures though.



My theory does take into account a standing army portion of the muster as well. As per above, I reckon that there was a garrison of about six, or so, Eored's permanently billeted at Edoras as well a the Kings Company and the three Marshall's Eored's. That's around 1200 men.

On top of that I imagine that there may be a half dozen Lords of similar stature to Erkenbrand around the Mark. Each of these probably has their own household Eored and may have a Lesser Marshall, like Grimbold commanding a second. That could be up to 1500 more.

That's almost a quarter of the theoretical number contained in the muster. Perhaps a fifth if we allow Michael Martinez' assertion about the number of riders available under Theoden but I still can't find the source for that quote. Either way, it is a sizable standing force.

I havnt had a chance to dig through it all yet but what do we have for solid numbers? An eroed has 120, Martinez is saying a muster of 12,000 and the Encyclopedia of Arda is saying 6,000. The Atlas of Middle Earth lists the Muster at the Battle of Pellenor at 6,000 as well and draws its quote from RotK (page ref doesnt line up with my version)

Tel, I'm thinking that perhaps a figure of 13,000 riders including the Knights of the King's Company and the, probably ad hoc, companies of mounted archers. This allows for the theoretical 12,000 riders and provides a little leeway around Michael Martinez'(so far unsubstantiated) statement from his essay.
On top of this I am reckoning on a much smaller number of infantry in the region of, perhaps, 4000 men representing my own opinion that horsemen are the backbone of the army and trying not to start playing with figures that make the Army of Isengard look too puny.

I would be interested to see if Tolwen has any thoughts on a rough population for the Rohirrim. I am going for a population of 100-110,000 using rough projections based around the above numbers of fighting men.

I have found a passage that was in my mind for some time.

Théoden says this after the (two) Battles at the fords of Isen, and at the Hornburg. So I guess he is counting the losses from here in when he does not speak of 12,000, but 10,000 warriors he could (theoretically) muster.

I have made no calculations yet for the rohirric time. I have yet some (old, but useful as a base) calculations for the Gondorian time, when it was still Calenardhon. Extrapolating from these, I'd say that 200,000 to 300,000 may be not too much. Even if Théoden speaks of the Rohirrim as a "scattered" people, the density is still quite low.

Remember that these people are dispersed over a territory of almost the exact size of the state of Mississippi (or a bit more than Bulgaria). According to Wikipedia, Mississippi has about 3,000,000 inhabitants (ca. 2,200,000 in 1950, at Tolkien's time) and Bulgaria about 7,500,000. So Rohan would have only about 10% of Mississippi's population at most; which would hardly be too much IMO

I still have to make more precise calculations when I am done with OM13, but IMO the numbers above could be a guideline.

Best
Tolwen

EDIT: With 300,000 people, the overall population density of Rohan would be at ca. 2.6 people per sq.km, which is not that much above modern Mongolia with ca. 1.8 or almost exactly the same as modern Namibia's with 2.6. And neither Namibia nor Mongolia are notorious for high population densities or lack of space for (semi-) nomadic people

Those figures are substantially higher than I was considering Tolwen. I appreciate what you are saying regarding comparative real world densities but we also have to account for story consistency in our estimations of Middle Earth populations.
I can easily accept that Rohan 'could' support 250,000 people with a Rohirric culture. I'm not so sure that it does though. The problem is that with a population that size and given it's perceived 'barbarian' culture, it's sheer military potential means that it can probably put somewhere in the region of 40,000 men in the field. The twelve thousand riders of the muster then become prestige troops once again (rather than backbone) and with almost thirty thousand infantry, early losses at Isen and Helms deep would be absorbed before swatting Saruman's paltry 10,000 troops aside.

I think the decrease in the numbers available is affected by casulties and the time available to Theoden before he needs to ride off. Also he needs to leave at least some troops behind to hold down the fort while he leaves for Gondor. The 10k number could mean any number of things, if war hadnt come, if he had more time, if he didnt have to leave as many behind, etc.

I think before I can puzzle through this i need to know where the 12,000 number comes from.

I do agree though that the riders would be the core of the army and not an elite wing.

In determining population numbers i would also stay away from modern numbers. The hardest part for me when thinking about the past is the difference in the number of people. I would think as a rough stab that the population of Rohan would be around 180,000

Tel,
The 'theoretical' 12,000 riders of the muster comes from the appendices from the story of Cirion & Eorl in UT. It mentions that an Eored is no less than 120 riders and that each Eored is 100/th part of the muster. The muster does not include the King's Company.

Tolwen,
After a little further thought, I am not so sure that your projected figures of 200-300,000 are too far off. My original notion is that the Rohirrim are still culturally, 'Barbarians'. To me, this basically means that every man of suitable age(roughly 1in 6) is a fighting man in some capacity.
This is not based on any real world equivalent or theory but is a fairly standard fantasy world creation trope.
I am now wondering if this is the appropriate cultural interpretation. I have no doubt that earlier incarnations such as the pre Eotheod people were 'barbarian' in culture. Since settling permanently in Calenardhon they could now, perhaps, be construed as civilised and at an early Feudal stage.
If we imagine them so, we can apply more stringent numbers to military potential. For civilised societies this usually translates to 1 in 100 professional soldiers and 1 in 20 for a militia. If we take your figure of 300,000, this gives potentially 3000 men in standing Eoreds and 15,000 in the militia Eoreds and Infantry Levy.That's really not far out from the military numbers that I speculated on earlier.


These could be broken down into 3000 professional riders, 6000 yeomanry riders, 3000 levy riders, 2000 horsed archers, 2000 infantry spearmen and 2000 infantry bowmen. All rough figures of course and do not include horsed archers as part of the Eohere. What do you all think?

All this sounds like a good base. I too see the Rohirrim much more organized and "civilized" than their predecessors on the plains of Rhovanion. Tolkien compares them on so much occasions (equipment & language come to mind) with the Anglo-Saxons, that a cultural organizational "height" roughly comparable might be an idea.

500 years of exposure to Gondorian influence and neighbourhood surely has helped in this "developmental process".

Best
Tolwen

Anyone got any idea what an Emnet is? As in, East Emnet or West Emnet.