Sorry to report this, but we have to withdraw the GenCon book.

It doesn't affect any other products that we have in the pipeline.

Apologies to all those who had pre-ordered the book or were looking forward to picking it up at GenCon. We should have a small number of the Loremaster Screen and Lake-town Sourcebook available at the show.

To try and make it up to pre-order customers, I'd like to offer you the opportunity to convert your order into a Loremaster's Screen and Lake-town Sourcebook order. It is due in September (and has a value of $5 more than the GenCon book, so equates to a 20% discount). Anyone who doesn't want to do that can, of course, get a full refund.

We are still processing the orders placed, and as soon as that has taken place I will write to pre-order customers to make the above offer.

Apologies again for the disappointment.

Dom

Why is the GenCon book cancelled and the pdfs gone?

Can we have a reason as to why this has been cancelled, please? Just saying it has isn't great customer service. I suspect it has something to do with the license but I'd like to know if that is the case (at least) and what the specific issue was (if possible)... Thanks.

I don't want to paint Do(o)m here but this is a little worrying.

Remember, almost a year ago when "Tales of the Wilderland" was said to be available in December? Some voices (mine included) raised concern that this might be a little late... The game was out in August (or was it late July for us pre-order folks?) and some of us whined that waiting to Decemed (2011) was a little too long a wait and that it might hurt the game?

Well... now we are almost a year later... and still no Adventure. Books being canceled, pdfs gone, and very little explanation.

I realize this is probably due to legal stuff and no fault of C7 in any way, so I'm not pointing fingers at anyone. I'm just sad that this ship (the TOR brand) is not overflowing with cool stuff already.

And with problems like these it DOES make the game harder to sell... and that cannot be good.

I'm sorry it has to be like this. I think we all agree on that.

/wolf

I just got let into the forums to ask a question about the Gencon book.

I'm really disappointed it wont be coming out I really wanted the adventure and the index in dead tree.

I will definitely be taking the screen option and I'm really happy that is still coming out.

Seems a very short announcement. I guess if they could give more reasons they would. I wonder if it is to do with the movies?

Cubicle 7 seem to spread their focus across many different games rather than concentrate on a handful of product lines. I'm really surprised that TOR has been so slow in getting stuff out for it though. I would have thought at least 2 or maybe 3 (at a push) supplements should be out by now and the same amount in development.

I think it would be fair to say I’m not impressed and quite disappointed.
I will most likely take up the offer of moving the pre-order for the GenCon exclusive to the Loremasters’ Screen for no other reason than you have my money and it’ll be easier just to move it to another product.

But right now I feel this will be my last pre-order via the C7 site, the trust is broken. I am not saying I won’t buy TOR products, I love the TOR line and really want to get hold of what is supposed to be coming out. I just think it’ll save disappointment in future when products get so delayed like Tales has and cancellations like has just happened. Once a product is out in the shops, I’ll get it. Plus, the extra of having a pdf before the physical release and as part of the buying deal was a good incentive, and now that’s gone too.

So this means that people not going to GenCon have absolutely no chance of getting that adventure you intended to have there – especially with no pdfs and no Gencon exclusive book. That’s upsetting, just feels like people who do pre-order (anything) are below the pecking order of those who are lucky enough to get to a con. Shame that.

I really want to see this line do well and get released, just seems to be a lot going against it. I hope one day it’ll all be a lot smoother.

I think the book has been cancelled completely, both the PDF and dead tree versions - so not even convention people can get it.

I think you're being a bit unfair to Cubicle 7 and the people working there. This whole thing was obviously something they didn't do willingly. I'm guessing this happened as a result of a legal issue regarding the licence to Tolkiens work.

If they legally could provide us with the Gencon book and the pdfs, then I'm 100 percent sure that they would.

Me too... I'm guessing the product wasn't announced within the agreed (with the licensee) release schedule or some other legal problem.

I'm more concerned with losing the PDF support, personally. That has an impact on current and future products and my ability to enjoy and run the game.

If you think about Hollywood suing little pubs in England because they have "Hobbit" in their name or in their menus you can understand what probably our Cubicle is up against. And the TOR being placed in mainly "Hobbit" area I think there is some stuff going on with the licenses.

It's a bit unclear Rich, but I'd be surprised that they don't have something new to play at the con. Plus Dom is guest of honour there.

I can understand the Gencon print being an extra burden and probably unwanted pressure - printing seems to be the big one with C7 and deadline-wise there wasn't going to be much time. Plus looking at how many lines they have and the number of staff, there is so much going on.

The pdf issue is still a mystery and a bit of a shocker, especially with a lot of companies opting for that route to help sales and get stuff out to their customers quickly.

Out of all the things to do with Tolkien and gaming right now, this is the game I really want to do well. I love FFG's LOTR LCG, especially the aspect that you don't have to spend stupid money getting rares, but it's this rpg that is the most impressive - writing, art, etc. It's all brilliant.

So I guess for 2012 I hope a few things - products out smoothly, good communication and honesty, more TOR. Let's see where we are by 2013.

I assumed the cancellation of the GenCon books and PDFs were linked in some way but you're right, it is a bit unclear as to what has happened.

We do need some clarification on why the GenCon book has been cancelled, why the PDFs have been removed, and whether the two are related in any way.

I posted above before I read your comments.

I agree with what you are saying, this probably isn't done willingly. The rpg/board game license has just got more complicated with a new company having film rights.

But I am a customer and I have a right to put forward my viewpoint on product purchasing. The C7 TOR is the first time I have really pre-ordered stuff in quite some time. When I have done so in the past, it's never worked out. I took a chance because right now TOR is one product I am really into buying. It hasn't worked out so now I'll go back to the way I buy stuff normally - when it's there on a shelf in front of me, I'll get it. What is unfair about that?

The legal issue is a real tough one, but there is a big difference here.

A pub has no legal standing to call itself something like, for instance, "The Hobbit". We all know that it would be pure meaness on the part of Middle Earth Enterprises to take that pub to court over it, the pub isn't stealing revenue from ME-Enterprises by taking customers away as such, they are just using the name of something to attract people.

In terms of the games - Sophisticated Games has a license from ME-Enterprises to produce games (I assume rpg included) based on the books. Another company now has rights to do the same based on films. License wise it should not be a conflict, both should be allowed to do what they were doing.

Another company has rights to do rpg games based on films?

I haven't seen the full license for them, but they have board games, card games and if it's similar to SG's license, I would say rpg would be in there too.

Not sure, but another company may have the rights to sell regarding an RPG based on the films. So, now that PJ looks to be messing around with extending the scope of the Hobbit film (for instance to potentially include stuff outside of it - eg, Dol Guldur, the Necromancer, etc) then that may impact on C7's TOR.

Complete speculation of course and I'm probably wrong!

Is September the PDF or Print release? If the former, I will swap. If the later, I think I am currently skeptical enough about C7's ability to deliver on that, that I am not sure if I will.

Skywalker - doubt it will be pdf, that's on hold remember.

Just looked at the list of companies out there who have rights to make games (board, card, etc) on the Tolkien license. Between the film rights and book rights (they seem to be kept separate) we have at least six - some with new licenses based on the Hobbit releases. That's a lot - as long as C7, FFG and Ares are ok, I don't care about the rest.

It is shipping from China at the moment, so should get to the US warehouse for early September, subject to tides, customs etc. Mail orders will be dispatched asap, and should get to most people by the end of September.

Thanks for that.

No worries. I appreciate that this news is disappointing and frustrating, and I'm really sorry about that.

But the line is secure, and there are many years of supplements etc planned.

Thanks for keeping us informed Dom, I'm actually pretty gutted about all this and what it could mean. TOR is by far the best game I've played since... Pendragon, and my players are over the moon about it. News like this, as well as the PDF cancellation really raises concerns and doubts. If the product line has these problems before even the first supplement is on the shelves then I don't have much confidence about it going forward. I would doubt you guys do either; I mean all this legal crap to deal with when you could be getting product out so why not focus on other games that aren't as problematic? Not a happy bunny here, and a worried one too.

Turbine? Not worried about that one too?

I kept Turbine out of the equation tbh, they are solely an online game and don't think there is any problem with them right now, especially with Riders of Rohan about to come out.

I have to say that I'm deeply disappointed by this.

One, I don't understand what the problem is because it is not communicated. Please help me understand why it should not be possible to get PDFs of TOR game books.

Two, my group was eagerly looking forward to the Rivendell book to be able to play the campaign we all want to play. With the removal of a PDF option it might not even make sense to follow up with the game at all as we're living several hundereds of kilometers apart and it is not always feasible to carry dozens of heavy books around.
Additionally this reduces the possibilities to sell your books as our group usually buys one or two print an around four PDF versions of the games we play. I'm not going to tell my guys to shell out even more to buy stuff they cannot even take with them easily.

This is thoroughly disappointing, silly, and makes me really angry.

Not necessarily at Cubicle7 or Dom, but currently they don't help me understand why they screw with me or my players.

Sorry to vent my anger here. But I have to do it ...

This is disappointing. More so because we get talking points about how "the line is secure" and no explanation of what's going on. Why do you have to withdraw the GenCon book? What happened? Why do you have to re-examine your pdf programme at this time --- What does that mean?

We're all still waiting for Tales from Wilderland---thank god for the PDF version of that book. And as customers, especially pre-order customers of the GenCon book, we deserve more than obfuscation. It would go a long way to simply state: Due to legal issues (or license issues) we cannot discuss, we have to withdraw the GenCon book and we can no longer offer PDF versions of TOR products."

At least then we'd know it's not an issue with sales of the game or support or C7. At least then we'd know that the line really is secure and it's just an issue with what the Tolkien estate will allow.

I'll convert my order for the GenCon book into an order for the Loremasters Screen and Lake-town Sourcebook -- I look forward to that email, Dom.

I'm sorry if I'm coming off as a jerk here. I know the Tales from Wilderland fiasco was the fault of the folks in China (?) who sat on the product instead of shipping it. But, as I said, thank god for the PDF of that book. I'm afraid without the PDF versions the gaps between products will become intolerable.

Vent over.

Beckett, you articulated my feelings perfectly.

Without the PDF of "Tales..." I simply wouldn't be running TOR and with the gap between products I doubt I'd have returned to it.

I think for C7 to really restore confidence (what with the lost GenCon books and PDFs) then we could do with 4 product releases between now and Christmas. So:

1) Tales...
2) Laketown and GM Screen
3) ...
4) ...

The quality needs to be there as well so resource should be thrown at making something like this happen. That kind of result would put a nice silver-lining on this otherwise very dark cloud.

(Now if I can only develop Jedi powers of mind control on Dom and the guys to make that happen...)

Hobbit snot.


Very sorry to hear this. More information would be appreciated, but I understand if that's not possible. I do understand that game companies, especially companies that deal with licensed properties, are bound by forces outside their control.

As far as the generous offer on the LMS/LTS goes, I'll have to think about that. I generally get my gaming stuff at my FLGS. The owner and I go way back and I support him as much as possible. The only reason I ordered the GenCon book was because it wasn't something he was going to be carrying.

I do note that there will be copies of the LMS/LTS at GenCon. That seems like a good sign.

Oh well.

Remember that you are dealing with a Licensed property.

You have to expect delays and disappointments with any RPG company. (Hell, with anything, really...) Throw in the Licensing and Lawyers, and you're talking about a nightmare of epic proportions.

It's understandable to be angry and disappointed. Just try to keep everything in perspective and keep looking forward to the future.

What scares me here is that they have a problem with a paper book, not a PDF. I assumed that PDF could be outside of the scope of the licencing without their noticing, but how can they have licencing trouble with two adventures in a paper book? Some details would be appreciated.

I thought I was, which is why I posted about future products?

At the end of the day, we still don't have a physical product in front of us besides the main rulebook and if this PDF problem would have happened earlier then we may not have had "Tales..." either. I think that would have killed the product line for many people. Its the PDF of that product that's really kept a lot of people interested and playing this game so I think people are keeping things in perspective and are looking at the future and how this could impact further.

Parts of Beckett's post earlier sums things up perfectly, I think.

So, if there is any legal way for the guys at C7 to clarify this (explaining who's caused the withdrawal of PDFs, etc) then they should do so. I'm *sure* it isn't C7 (as it would be such a moronic buisiness move to do that) and would therefore suspect that the culprit is the license holder - Tolkien Enterprises?

LOL. You were, except for the part about four releases between now and Christmas. Although that would be pretty awesome.

Shhhhhhhhh. I was trying to subliminally suggest it to Dom.

My first thought was piracy (AAARGH!) like when WOTC removed all their pdfs. I agree that ~pleasedofourTORreleasesbetweennowandchristmas~ licensing issues are equally possible.


ETA: subliminal testing

I suppose it could be, but for just one of their product lines? Feels more to me like some kind of licensing issue. Really would like to know though...

Sorry, my bad.

Obviously disappointed, as I preordered it, but I will take the offer Dom was making.

I am concerned about PDF's though, as without them my campaign would be stalled.

I know I can write my own tales, but having pre-written material to run gives me something to play while I plan my adventures.

There are only so many hours available per week to devote to writing... work, and life in general, can get in the way!

An update on the fate of future PDF products would be appreciated!!!