I think based on previous announcments by Dom (ie, "our other product lines will continue to be PDF supported") its probably best to prepare for the worse and presume that they have gone the way of the dodo for TOR products.

I missed the other announcement about PDf's, thanks for bringing it to my attention.

And that really is a blow! Looks like my TOR campaign will be taking a longer break after TfW completes!

Not sure when the video interview was recorded on C7 homepage, but that mentioned 1st draft complete on Darkening of Mirkwood. Release date says autumn, which could be up to end of November... assuming no delays.

Ahem! HAUGER... I'll be needing that Ire In Darkness campaign soon please!

Write it for me now!

I'm guessing that the pdf thing probably steps on the toes of some other licence holder who has the 'Tolkien' rights to distribute things on the interwebs. Or something like that.

Must be more than that as a solution for C7 would be to simply provide digital copies of PDFs by other means - eg, on CDs.

This sucks really bad.

I may cancel my entire order now. Why? Cause this is a very ominous sign very very early in the One Ring's life.

It may even mean Cubicle7 is restricted in what content they can generate. They had the license to the LOTR/Hobbit books and their appendixes. I am guessing somehow licenses are getting re-written behind licensee's backs based on this new 3rd Hobbit movie announcement (which is rumored to heavily feature appendix material).

The Gencon book should not be cancelled and the fact that it is really shows this whole line is in major trouble now.

It seems helpful at this point to reiterate the most relevant parts of what Dom has posted already:

Thanks Jon, will we get a proper explanation from Dom as to why we can no longer purchase PDFs for TOR? Is it possible under the terms of the license (as I'm assuming that's the problem and not you guys)? Also, will we get a reason as to the GenCon book cancellation? Will we be able to get hold of the new adventure in that book at all?

Ta.

I hope so Jon. It would really suck if the license gets all restrictive now and you can't freely mine the books and appendixes like originally set out in your license.

Has the license that Cubicle7 got for Middle Earth changed in that respect?

I'm just popping in to point out the relevant parts of the official statements, I'm afraid. I personally am not in a position nor have the authority to answer questions at this point. Apologies for the inevitable frustration this will cause.

I understand! This happens far to often with the Tolkien licenses.

Frustrating back when it happened with Iron Crown Enterprises! Equally frustrating now!

Cheers Jon, thought so. Hope Dom can share more information with us all on the matter, and sooner rather than later, as if this drags on it could get pretty damaging. Fingers crossed that you guys (and TOR) come out of this alright.

Yeah, it is very disappointing. I was really looking forward to the GenCon book. Hopefully, we'll see it at a future date.

I also agree with your guess that this is all tied to the 3rd movie announcement. While it's not certain, the timing is too close, IMO, to be a coincidence.

The announcements of the 3rd movie, the book cancellation and the pdf issues have all happened in the last day or two. GenCon starts in 2 weeks. I think that (as you theorized) the licensing agreements are being rehashed and that there will not be enough time between now and GenCon to resolve all the legalities.

I'd also speculate that if the One Ring Collection was going to be available for GenCon, in two weeks, then it is probably finished and simply awaiting printing. To me, that means a better chance that we might see it at a future date.

I suspect that the GenCon book has already been printed and on the way back by now, so that must be even more frustrating for C7 as they have already paid for it.

We could all agree to buy our copies on the QT.

Sidle up to C7 employee with brown envelope.

'You know what I need pal! Hand it over!'

C7 employee hands over A4 envelope and takes brown envelope.

'Nice one pal! Pleasure doing business with you!'

That'd sooooo work!

I'm as disappointed as the next guy about the PDF restriction, but there is a lot of WILD speculation and internet nerd rage right now.

As far as I can tell the ONLY things you are unable to get at this time are the PDF's, bummer, but not a show stopper, and the GenCon special book. The ONLY things it contained were the printed copy of Words of the Wise (which has been available as a PDF for 6+ months), the PDF of the Index (which has been available) and a PDF to come of the adventure that will be run at GenCon. I'm sure if they can't offer that as a stand alone they will fold it in somewhere.

The product STILL exists to purchase and sounds like I'll be getting my copy of "Tales of the Wilderland" in the mail soon as well as being able to purchase the hard copy of the GM screen and Laketown book at GenCon or soon after.

The C7 people CLEARLY can't lay it out for everyone right now and I respect that they are doing nothing to risk their license.

The game is still a ton of fun and even if they never produced another TOR product (which would be tragic) I would still play it.

So...everyone take a deep breath, step away from your computer and stop the crazy speculation.

The sky may be falling, but even if it is, panicking and declaring you are done with TOR won't change that.

As far as I'm concerned it's still the incredible product I thought it was last August. Future releases or lack of will not change the products I do have.

This event represents a severe negative impact to the future of the The One Ring product line. The reasoning behind the decision is moot, even if it is completely outside of Sophisticated Games or Cubicle7's control.

Specifically these events negatively impacts Middle-earth Enterprises' ability to market an RPG product in the future. Particularly as it seems they have adversely affected, in a very strong manner, each and every one of their gaming industry partners at some point during their contractual relationship. I'm sure Middle-earth Enterprises are looking to realize immediate profits and this skews their perspective. They are assuming future earnings potential will rapidly decline without movie releases on the horizon. This short-sighted goal should make any potential business partners reconsider the viability of the license.


Personally, this leaves me with such a poor feeling that I doubt my enthusiasm for The One Ring will recover to previous levels. Non-literary product purchases related to Middle-earth will be non-existent.

Hi Dom

Sad news. Glad to take up your offer of converting order however.

For me, the book was a great idea as GenCon souvenir for someone not able to attend - already run 'words of the wise' so less of an issue having it. Are you able to mail out a link to the GenCon 2012 adventure to us anyway?

LOL

At this point, the delivery of any future TOR products from C7 is in the category of "Believe it when I see it." At this point, I officially consider TOR a dead product line.

Except, the problem is that C7 doesn't seem to be able to deliver these products via print, either. The PDF of Tales came out in, what, April, and there are still no print copies available. If Dom wants to allay potential fears about its ability to deliver product, then it needs to start delivering product.

The real difference between today and tomorrow is that up until today, I've been checking C7's website daily, in hope that there would be an announcement that the Lake Town sourcebook was now, or at least very soon, would be available at DTRPG. It's become part of my morning routine. I don't see the point in doing that any longer, because at this point I frankly don't expect that the sourcebook will ever be available.

OK. Good to know someone has made it official, I guess.

Well, obviously I'm not one who can make it official. My point is simply that C7 has lost almost all this customer's faith in their capacity to bring further TOR product to market.

And let me be clear: I don't want TOR to suffer the fate of so many other great games that died before their time. I really want to buy TOR products from C7. But I can't. So I don't. And thus I begin to look elsewhere for games that do seem to be well supported. And if I sink dollars into those games, then I have less interest in TOR. And that's where I am right now, as a customer.

Wow! ::shrug::

Is lack of faith keeping anyone from running or playing in their existing game?

I mean, I'm bummed at the news, but even if they cancel the rest of the line I still plan on finishing off Tales of the Wilderland, and maybe throwing some stuff together afterwards. More material is just bonus.

Not Faith... Products.

Lack of Products is definitely keeping me from playing the game.

/wolf

TOR is not DEAD! Not until I see the body!

Seriously though, even if there was nothing ever released again... it doesn't matter.

TOR is a role-playing game. The stories come from the mind of the LM and the players.

There's thousands of RPG supplements out there for other systems that can be mined for ideas.

Books, TV, movies etc can provide inspiration too.

To misquote Tolkien.... 'The game goes ever on'

I hear you and agree.

Me, personally, will not be playing it like that though.

I'm too old and preoccupied with life (lazy?) to have time to write my own stuff. So games that require me to do so, will be shelf-ware in my basement... nothing more.

Sorry, but that is just the way it is.

It should be noted though that a slow pace in putting out products will not stop me from buying them when they get out. And if, years down this road, I finally have enough material (purchased) to play a decent campaign, I probably will, even if the game is 5 years old at the time.

My fear though is that a pace like that will kill the line, since it will discourage people from buy in (not everyone has my patience) and it won't bring revenue fast enough to C7.

So, while I am worried... I will hang in there... lurking. It would be ashamed to lose such a great game.

/wolf

I agree with everything you say here, Ghostwolf. I love making my own material for the RPGs I'm playing. Easy to do when you're 17 and have few responsibilities. But I'm older now, and find it harder to devote the time and energy that such projects require.

Yep. That's the problem. We need material.

Seriously people, one cloud on the horizon and this place turns into a freakin' Chicken Little & Eeyore funeral.

I'm not sure whether to laugh or cringe in embarrassment at some of these comments.

It isn't one cloud though...

A product has been cancelled AND all PDFs of products (as well as free ones like Words of the Wise) have been withdrawn without any real reason as to why. This leaves people wondering what is going on. I think folks are therefore understandably concerned, especially since we have no physcial product for this line beyond the core rulebook. Some people may be venting more than others and drawing lines in the sand which others wouldn't draw but I think your post above is just as silly in many ways as it reads like its very blasé/nonchalant/dismissive. Just a thought but perhaps rather than making such comments you could be a bit more constructive and try to reason with those you believe are over-reacting? I think that would be better for everyone?

Brooke, that really is a reach. I know the news is disappointing and its really frustrating that we still haven't got a physical product in our hands other than the core rulebook but to consider the TOR product line as 'dead' isn't constructive. It is worrying what has happened over the last couple of days, though.

Remember that there are arguably at least 3 entities (C7 and their writers/artists/etc, Francesco and Sophisticated Games, and Middle Earth Enterprises) involved in this line where there would usually only be one (C7 and their writers/artists/etc). This means that there will be delays in output and production. ME Enterprises will also want to proof things, going over them in acute detail, and will not rush - probably sitting on proofs for significant periods of time. All this will slow down output.

I do think that C7 and the guys need to raise their game regarding TOR and prioritise work on it, but that's just because I'm desparate for all the cool stuff they are working on.

I share your concerns about the cancellation of the book and the withdrawal of PDFs but if you read other comments here and understand the track record of ME Enterprises then I think there's more than a strong suggestion that the problem isn't with C7 but with some legal issue and Dom probably can't tell us about it due to confidentiality issues. It would be nice to know though, but maybe we just have to accept that we won't for certain.

The sooner the guys get a couple of products out the better though.

Sure, the problem probably isn't C7. They're a both of great guys who obviously love TOR. But that really doesn't help me get more TOR products, does it?

Yep.

I feel that fans of TOR have been very patient with extended delays on numerous products, such as the print copy of Tales of Wilderland, and the complete lack of additional player options for a full year. The announcement of the GenCon edition came as a relief to many. I opted not to purchase it, but the fact that it was going to come into being was at least a positive sign. Now, that positive sign is cancelled, the PDFs are withdrawn, and there is apparently further delay on the Lake-Town sourcebook/LM. I'm seeing a lot of cloud, and very little sunshine.

I genuinely hope I'm wrong. I hope this turns out to be a tiny hiccup, and once resolved TOR products will flow like milk and honey and the line will meet and even exceed all expectations. I really do, as this is one of the best games I've seen in a very long time. But I also live a real world, and everything I'm saying points in the directions of a struggling rather than vibrant product line.

Completely agree with you Brooke on the above. Its disappointing and frustrating for me too and I also want to see those products released. I'm sure Francesco does as well!

As I've said before, my frustration stems from my deep appreciation of the game. It's been a long time since I picked up a RPG and was really excited about playing it. More often, I'm thinking, "This will do," rather than, "This is amazing." So, I really want TOR to live up to its promise. But with great expectations, then greater risk of disappointment. (An axiom I learned from the dissolution of my first marriage!).