Ouch...

I love this game too even though it sometimes hard to know for sure when you haven't really tested it against the reality of your player group... but I don't plan to marry it.

(I hope a joke was not out of line here )

/wolf

It is an awesome game and it does make this kind of news even more disappointing for that.

Nope, not at all

The particularly sad part for me is that as of yesterday I finally could afford to purchase Tales from Wilderland and/or the TOR Collection - GenCon 2012 product. Of course, there is now absolutely nothing for me to buy.

Remember, I don't want a paper edition, just a PDF, so TFW's imminent release is moot.

And this is the beginning of the apocalypse how? I like having the PDF's as well, but I'm not going to start wringing my hands and wearing a hair shirt because they've been pulled. (temporarily, for all we know)

no, it's definitely dismissive.


I suggest all the doom and gloomers need read the following 10 times, because apparently they didn't bother to read it all when it appeared on page TWO:

There is your apology and assurances that the future is bright and golden. I mean, c'mon... what more do you want the man to say?

I just hope nothing else happens to stall production in the next few months. If it does this place will go Thermal.

I believe the term is thermonuclear.

Fission bomb went off in the last week, fusion bomb next time!

Yep, that is exactly what i meant. i heard the term "going Thermal" in some sci-fi movie.

And don't forget the good ol' fashioned Neutron Bomb.

Star Wars have grenades called "Thermal Detonators".... might be from there?

/wolf

I had a wizard killed by a neutron bomb once. AD&D adventure with a crashed space ship, Barrier Peaks, or some custom made spin off by the GM.

He realised it was going explode and fled. Teleport was an option, but there was a risk of death due to it not being Teleport Without Error, so he just ran!

How was he supposed to know what a blast radius was?

Ok, I know this is a thread jack, but...I just can't help myself.

"Teleport Without Error"

Hey, it should be good as long as he aligned the Hiesenberg Generators correctly. Otherwise, he is a puddle of goo.

I never stated it was the 'apocalypse'. I believe you're the one using such hyperbole. But, you've freely admitted you're being dismissive, so... <unfortunate shrug>

Anyway... People are rightly concerned and worried as I think many of us understand how the withdrawal of PDFs could affect sales. And we appreciate Dom saying the line is secure but actions speak louder than words in this instance - I think if a few supplements had actually been released in the last year then the reaction to these two pieces of news would have been significantly different but that unfortunately isn't the case. We'll have to see what occurs over the next year but I'm hopeful that C7 can sort out this PDF issue positively and get back to having them, otherwise I think it will damage the TOR line. How much by, again we'd have to see but people should be concerned - I'm sure C7 are behind closed doors.

Well said, Rich. There is no world in which this week's announcements can be considered positive signs. The question is not whether these are negative developments, but rather how negative.

Evening,
All in all, I think many of the people who are worried about PDF availability within the TOR product line have been upset, but hopeful of some kind of quick and positive resolution to the issue (whatever it's exact nature).

This event does negatively impact the TOR game, but no one has said it is the death of the product line. Although a few of us have stated that PDFs (or an alternate electronic format) are the only type of product we wish to purchase for various reasons. That the lack of an available electronic file format will make us reconsider future purchases.

I can appreciate that if a paper product is acceptable to you, the impact of this decision may not seem so critical. I can also understand that all of the commentary may have upset you and you felt the need to voice your opinion. We did exactly the same thing for the same reason. Please respect our right to be concerned.

Finally, I notice you have not posted very often, but I assume from your join date that you check in periodically. Which means that you've seen most of us post far better comments than the current circumstances have elicited. Feel free to voice your suggestions, opinions, comments or anything else... but hopefully a bit more respectfully of the concern and effort some of the other community members have put into a favoured game.

Thanks for considering my comments.

Thank you for pointing out that Dom isn't an honest person. That's good to know.

No, I'm here pretty much every day. I just don't have a compulsion to reply to every comment in every thread posted.

Thx.

Well hopefully a year from now when we have 2-3 new TOR supplements sitting on our bookshelves (or warming our iPads) and our swag bags are laden with new dice, some people will have realized how their alarming concerns voiced in this thread were so much ado about absolutely nothing...

I see now. There is no consoling the inconsolable.

You guys are VERY entertaining!

I personally won't tell anyone how to feel because they have a right to their own feelings.

But, I just want to speak up and say how I'm feeling today.

I feel blessed. I know that I've only gotten a Core set so far in print. But, it is such a great game and I would have bought it even if there were no more products to follow. Actually, I am so blessed that I do have more products. I at least got Words of the Wise for free when it was offered. I got the pdf for Tales from Wilderland while it was offered, and the printed book will be coming soon. The Lake-town Sourcebook & Loremaster's Screen is already printed and will be available soon, AND other products are currently being worked on; whether they see PDF format or not, they will be available in print. On top of all that, the guys that are producing this material have given me an AWESOME forum for interaction. I can post fan-made materials (they have even created a resource page for these) and the authors themselves are active on the site.

I wasn't happy about the pdf's going down or the special GenCon book being canceled, but I realize that sometimes things are out of our control. In the mean-time, I am still as ecstatic about The One Ring: Adventures Over the Edge of the Wild as I was last August. What a great year we've had talking about and playing this game. We are sure to have many more. Things are just getting started!

I don't like fanboys myself too and I'm not but I agree with JRB. Last week we played TOR and two days later one of my players DM'ed us a D&D 3.5 game. The story was good but the system bored me so much I can't tell you. I can't go back to D&D after TOR Even if Cubicle closes everything and no more products come out I'll play TOR because I really like it. So I can't understand when people say "TOR is dead to me now" Currently available material is not very short (9 Adventures) and core set is enough to play the game. Can't wait for print version of Tales and the Screen!

At least the staff of C7 are keeping us updated on the situation. It certainly could be worse; anyone remember Last Unicorn Games "release" of the Dune RPG?

Man, that's a shame. Personally I much prefer books to PDF's. I was really looking forward to this. But I understand that things happen. And what would life be without things.

Is there any plan to make the other adventure available? In any form. And will the index ever be printed in book form? I have a printout I carry around with the boxed set, but in another book would be great.

As for the money, I think I will probably ask for my money back. If only because I already had plans to get it at my local game store.

I am a bit disappointed but hey, stuff happens. I am really not too concerned about what's going on or why, and I certainly DO NOT see the end of the game coming form this. We have been told that Tales from the wilderland is just waiting for customs. It WILL be here. The screen and Lake town WILL be here. So now instead of getting the Gencon special I will get the screen and Laketown cheaper, and I won't have to come up with more money to pay for them. A win win IMHO

Thanks for your work, Dom. I'm sure your every bit as disappointed as the rest of us. Thanks for the preorder conversion. Count me in!

Yours in fellowship,
Stephen "Trotter"

I didn't. And stop putting words in my mouth - its now the second time you've done so; show some respect to your fellow forumites, thanks. If you're incapable of engaging at that level then don't include me in your responses.

Walk away Rich, just walk away...

/wolf

Believe me, I've walked! ... But thanks for the advice GhostWolf.

Anyone heard from Dom yet about the conversion of the Gencon edition to Laketown?

Or is that going to be after Gencon now as it's getting a bit close?

Hi, Garbar.

I have not heard anything but Dom did say that they were still processing the pre-orders and as soon as that was complete he'd write to pre-order customers to make the offer about the converting Gencon book orders into orders for the Loremaster's Screen and Lake-town Sourcebook.


I've come to learn that in Cubicle 7 speak that can mean anytime between today and December. I'm learning to manage my expectations so I'm not disappointed. :-)

Maybe not for you, but it is for me. I'm only doing electronic copies for rulebooks, etc. now, so if C7 will/can no longer release TOR products as PDFs, I'm (sadly) done buying TOR products for the foreseeable future*.

That's not nerdrage or unreasonable entitlement or anything other than practical purchasing decisions as a consumer. It's a pity, since I've been really excited about this game. I'll still run with what I've got, but I was looking forward to seeing what C7 was going to do with the line.



*Note: Not that there are actual products for me to buy at this point.

Not only remember, have a copy. Wish I'd sprung for two. It's quite well done. But at least they let people know why they folded - they had their cash flow chopped by a different license being non-renewed without significant notice. In short, losing trek left them borderline insolvent. The "being kept informed" was MUCH higher with LUG than with C7. (And LUG trek was better written, but worse illustrated, than Decipher trek...)

C7 is making assurances, but is late delivering dead tree (not that I can afford dead tree), and now has to cancel a product whole cloth, and withdraws all the PDFs, and is dissembling about why...

It's not comforting - Everything I've seen from C7 is VERY pretty, and quite playable... but not timely.


As with Brooke, the line, dead or not, is effectively dead for me. What more I want is the answer to "Why?"

"But at least they let people know why they folded ..."

I must have missed that, I can still remember a press release talking about what they planned for the Dune product line 3 days before the listed release day, and watching the countdown clock as it passed the 1 week mark after release and still no word on when it would hit the stores. Then they came out with the reasons; but, that is another matter.

I am fairly new to the C7 lines, having only played TOR and bought Yggdrasill, but I think so far they have been quite good at communicating problems to us; sure they seem to be having more then their fair share of set backs, but they continually let us know about them in good order. Also, I really don't think it fair to beat them up over the GenCon release being cancelled; since it was a last minute (one would say bonus) addition to the product line anyway.

You guys enjoy your boycott, I'll be over here playing a wonderful game.

I have heard nothing about a boycott. I have heard customers frustrated at delayed, withdrawn, and cancelled products, and some of those customers saying that due to these developments they will no longer support this product line. This is the reality of a market economy: satisfy customer demand, or risk losing customers to competitors. And I guarantee C7 understands this reality. And really, with only paper product in what is now a paper-only line, C7 has really not built up that much customer loyalty. At this point, they need to get out product. Simple as that. All one needs is an intro Econ course to recognize that that is the case.

The sad thing is that you just know that pirates will create their own scans of the rulebooks and they will find their way onto the web. I'm not saying it's a good thing, but you know that it will happen and C7 won't see a dime from PDF sales.

WotC had this problem, when they decided suddenly to cancel sales of out-of-print TSR books. It angered the fans and I don't know of anyone who can't find those books if they turn over the right rock. Folks that say they's be happy to pay for legit copies, but will take what they can get.

I'd rather see game companies just sell both print and PDF versions of their products. At least they'll get paid for their product.

Maybe I'm misinterpreting the "this line is dead to me" comments. It's a somewhat vague sentiment so maybe I misunderstood.

This discussion is largely academic. Until we see products on the shelves of FLGS, this line is functionally dead to everyone. We can play with our basic rules to our hearts' content, but that can't translate into sales or an expanded product line.

Speak for yourself, please. I for one don't think the line is a dead stick, yet.

If a consumer cannot find the product, or (as is really the case here) if products don't exist to be purchased, the product line is functionally dead. That's neither a contentious or even debatable point.

If C7 gets products into the hands of consumers and continues to do so, that's a different story. Until then, it has nothing to do with our wishes, nor Francesco's, nor anyone else's, it's merely a reality of retail products.

No one is saying you can't play with your rules or make up your own adventures. We're talking about whether or not there is an active retail product being sold to consumers.

I can still play my Red Book Basic D&D game, but that product is dead no matter how many people are playing it.

The way I see it, the product is not dead, but is not looking too healthy either at this point and really needs something to boost it soon to keep it running. Maybe like the release of the hobbit movies, which are almost certain to bring people to this game. Or maybe a impromptu print of words of the wise as is:-D . I would buy it, and will still keep buying for products.

So, if the line is dead, then why is the company still pouring hours of work into future products?

I see things as still growing. We thought the baby would weigh more by now, but its growth has been stunted due to licensing issues. However, it will grow, just at a slower rate.

My advice to those who are frustrated is to take a break and come back when the products have arrived. There is no sense in demanding that the baby grow. If all goes well, by the end of 2012 we will at least be able to purchase the Core Rules, Lake-town Sourcebook and Loremaster's Screen, The One Ring Dice Sets, Tales from Wilderland, Darkening of Mirkwood, and possibly the Rivendell supplement. For download, the character sheets and Expanded Index are available right now free.

With all that product in 2012, if the game had launched at this GenCon, it would have been really amazing. But, then, I have a feeling those who need a large and constant flow of products would be disappointed in six months if the company couldn't keep spitting out new stuff. Oh, well. You can't please everyone all the time.

That's just my two cents.

Because you can't grasp that...

Without the PDF line, some of us can't afford to buy the dead tree?

Because, between the cancelled and delayed products, my FLGS is unlikely to continue carrying the line?

My LGS generally stops carrying lines that don't have regular product offerings. They don't reorder core books unless they're selling the core and supplements, unless the core is selling exceptionally well. And, at the current prices, it's not.

Timely, regular product offerings are a vital part of the successful business model for the RPG industry. Exceptions exist - but they are rare.

Bottom line: C7 must get out product, not simply promise to do so. That is the only waging that will restore customer confidence at this point.