Ding ding ding. Nail on head. Add in that I live in a smaller city, with really only one local gaming store, and that this local gaming store is really a comic shop that sells games on the side, and it's all the more a problem. They get in the major lines, and really that's all. And the only reason, I suspect, that they ordered the core set of TOR is that they figured a ME rpg was worth the risk to stock. But almost a year later and no further product, I'd frankly be surprised if they ever stock the Lake Town sourcebook.

So, what options have I, if my local gaming store opts not to carry a line in which I am interested? Well, I could ask them to special order it. Sometimes they could do so, sometimes they couldn't. For a long time, that was basically the only option. The internet opened up new possibilities, such as ordering product directly from the company. But that often comes with a shipping and handling cost, and since I quite happily live in Canada, that cost is almost always international. Alternatively, I could order through companies such as Amazon, but again, either paying international shipping rates if ordering from Amazon.com, or grossly inflated prices if ordering from Amazon.ca. The TOR coreset, for instance, is $37 US on Amazon.com, but $50 CDN on Amazon.ca, even though US and Canadian dollars are roughly on par, today registering less than 1 cent difference. If I order from .ca, I don't pay shipping, but pay an extra $13 on the product. If I order from .com, I pay $13 less on the product, but have to pay international rates on shipping. In all these cases, I have to wait for the product to be delivered.

Or, I could order a PDF, which, as I recall, was $25 US before it was pulled from DTRPG. Not only would that be upwards of 50% the cost, but I would get it immediately. Frankly, it makes little sense anymore for me to purchase other than by PDF. It is much easier to get a copy, and less expensive. As I have said before, the only reason I have a physical copy of the coreset is because it was a gift from my brother. Otherwise, frankly, I could not have justified the greater expense, relative to the PDF.

So, perhaps, if you live in the US or the UK, and are made of money, the loss of a PDF option isn't that big a deal. But for the rest of us, it is.

Ok, finely someone has given a legit complaint about the loss of PDF...COST! Now, that I can understand.

BTW, I suspect that part of the reason that DnD 4E has been so poorly received has to do with a lack of legally available PDFs. I doubt that 5E will be any better received, if that situation continues. In fact, I would go as far as to say that WoTC's policy on the matter is making DnD irrelevant to an increasing number of gamers.

Hey, I'm a consumer. And just as I might, as someone shopping for car, prefer certain features, such as automatic transmission, so do, when searching for gaming products, prefer certain features, such as electronic delivery and media. I like the convenience of PDFs. I like that I need only carry my netbook to a gaming session, rather than piles of books. I like the ability to search within documents. There are a huge number of pluses, in my reckoning. And, yeah, cost is one of them.

Hey, I can understand not buying a game because of cost.

So you are unable to understand lack of time to prepare due to family commitments, or lack of space? Those are another two other "technical reasons" people have given you. Those are the ones I can think of off the top of my head, there are undoubtedly others in the two threads discussing this.

Understand this:
- When you leave college you do not have the same time available to you. With full time work and young children, time to spend on hobbies is limited. Social life outside the home is restricted unless you've got easy access to a babysitter, and generally your spouse wants you to spend that time with them. Using online gaming tools, a virtual tabletop, I can continue a hobby that I enjoy in the time I have. PDFs mean that I don't need to prepare at length for a game beforehand and can pretty much "wing it" as I would at an actual gaming table.
- When you've been gaming for around 20 to 25 years, you get quite a collection. You have to pick and choose what you buy and can't store everything in paper form. PDFs allow you to check out a game before buying it in paper form, or getting material that you wouldn't necessarily buy otherwise because you can't store it.

(Sorry: wasn't trying to sound sarcastic or anything with my use of "Hey." Very sorry if it sounded that way).

Really the only reason that I am able to have a face-to-face game at all is because it's "all in the family." We play at my brother's house, which just happens to be next door to our folks'. So, between my parents, my sister-in-law, and my niece, I have built-in babysitters. It actually makes for a nice break for my husband, giving him a much-needed evening to himself.

Like yourself, Valarian, I've been in the hobby for over twenty years. My brother and I discovered RPGing in 1989. Yet, very little of our once significant collection--mostly Star Wars D6, some Vampire, and a little Shadowrun and MERP--is still in our possession. Much of it was purged in the late '90s, when we successively moved away from home. After that, we were out of the hobby for some years, as we were busy with various other life things. By the time we seriously got back into it, PDFs had started to become commonplace. So, neither of us really got back into buying books, with very few exceptions.

So, if C7 does follow through on all their planned products for this line, do I want a dozen or more TOR books cluttering up my shelves somewhere? Probably not.

Just because you can't understand other concerns and problems with the loss of PDFs beyond cost doesn't mean they aren't legit thankyouverymuch.

A lot of complain about PDFs. I use PDFs too and think they're handy sometimes but not a single C7 product is being sold in my country and it's really not a hard thing to order online. Just takes like 2 seconds.

Exactly! And if availability of product is not legit, I do 't know what is!

This goes back to our point about the line being dead. A product line without product, is dead!

but, but, but... if the line is dead, then there's no reason to keep the pdf's up, right?


We get it. You're mad because they took away your pdfs.

"Zed's dead, baby... Zed's dead."

/wolf

Yeah I wouldn't make an exception for TOR either.

I'm right there with you sister. These books really do junk up the place.

Evening: please rein in the sarcasm. It's not helpful to the general atmosphere.

Brooke: I think you have sufficiently put across your opinion that TOR is a dead line. Please leave it there, thank you.

Availability and cost of the product are two very good legit concerns for consumers. But, not buying because you have decided you no longer like books really isn't, IMO. I don't want to be rude, but if the only reason you are walking away from TOR is because you are pissed off because they no longer offer the game as a pdf then all I can say is here's you hat, your coat and don't let the door hit you in the butt on the way out. If you were a true fan of the game (and company) you would find some way to make the new set up work.

I really respect everyone on these forums, you all are incredibly knowledgeable about the subject matter (both setting and mechanic), but when did we as gamers become so fickle?

I've asked Brooke and Evening to step back, and I'll ask you the same Beran. I think you've made your point abundantly clear now. I can't see much benefit in repeating it any further, beyond needly provocation of people already well-provoked. Thank you.

Currently under development d(^_ ^d ) I should be posting the first potion of the adventure by this weekend.

Fair enough. I would just qualify and say that I very much hope that C7 can prove me wrong. I really do. Nothing would make me happier than a year from now having to admit I was wrong on this matter.

I look forwards to reading it.

My campaign paused for 3 weeks due to player on holiday, so I have a few weeks to work on stuff myself.

Appreciate Jon stepping in and calming things down here so I'll say the following to clarify and leave it at that: if you really think people are saying they aren't buying things because they no longer like books then you've misunderstood the importance of what most people have stated, quite clearly, on numerous occasions.

1) Some people aren't going to buy further products because they can no longer get it on PDF, and not having it available in the format that fits in with their lifestyle means they cannot play. Just because you think they should suddenly be able to switch to using dead tree produict is neither here nor there. They RP in a particular way and you should respect that they are being honest and when they say they can't game another way they really mean it. Their way of gaming is completely legitimate even though it differs from how you or I may game.

2) A couple of others think the product line is dead. This is something I don't agree with personally but I do understand their frustration and I know from reading comments here that they are managing their own expectations of further diappointment by preparing themselves in this way. If/when new products come out I'm absolutely positive (assuming they game using dead tree versions) that they'll purchase them. And to prove my point, here we go:

And now, unless someone asks me a direct question, I'm pretty much done with trying to explain to people why not having PDFs are dealbreakers for some gamers. I much prefer to concentrate on my AP thread!

I'm sure we're all really looking forward to reading it!

I am not trying to provoke anyone. However, I have to say that I am getting tired of the negativity toward the TOR line that is being shown around here.

But, as you say this discussion is going no where real fast. So, I will respect your request Jon and this will be the last point I try to make on the particular subject.

Just got my email from Dom about the preorder of Gencon Special being converted to LM Screen/Laketown.

It says only reply if I want to cancel the order as they will convert automatically.

Goes against the grain to say nothing, but trying not to fail that resistance check!

I know what you mean, but I do appreciate that as the default option.

I just received an email from Dom regarding The One Ring Collection - Gencon Edition cancellation and the offer to switch my order to The Loremaster’s Screen and Lake-town Sourcebook. Here was my reply:

"A 32 page sourcebook AND a Loremaster's screen! That is one heck of a deal! I look forward to it."

So, thank you. I was pleasantly surprised by the email today and excited for the upcoming product in September. You've turned a grumpy customer into a happy one. Thanks, again.

Blast!!!

Now I know someone else has replied (Damn you Becket ) it makes me want to, just to make sure that they know I want it!