We are re-examining our pdf programme at this time and will not be offering pdf versions of The One Ring until further notice.

Many apologies for any inconvenience caused.

- Cubicle 7 Entertainment and Sophisticated Games

Disturbing.

... They need to get this PDF issue sorted quickly and be more forthcoming with stating what the issues are. We, the customers, are pretty much in the dark here.

If we are no longer going to get PDFs for these products then that will have a serious impact on sales as they are so useful to us all (even if we also have dead tree versions). For example, I wouldn't be running TOR now without the electronic copy of Tales from Wilderland as we still don't have the physical copy of the book. Also PDFs are great to print out maps etc from them for personal use in the gaming group. Yep, lack of PDFs will negatively impact on my enjoyment and enthusiasm for this great game to the point where I personally wouldn't have started running it. I suspect this situation will also be shared by others.

I hope the PDF issue is only temporary but it doesn't look good for the future health of the line to have such a big part of modern gaming removed from our toolset so lets hope it isn't permanent.

I agree. Having the dead-tree versions is nice to read off-line but the PDF is essential to me, running the game online.
I'd have to seriously rethink running the games if I only had the physical books to refer to.

From RPGnet:

Looks like a long term loss of PDFs. Sounds like a licence issue

That sounds really bad... I don't think I can run the game anymore if we lose PDF support. What a load of sh*t this is.

Pdf or not, I'll still be getting TOR.

Seriously, what is it with folk and not being able to run a game without pdfs? :|

We did just fine - thank you very much - for decades before pdfs.

Not a problem as long as the hardcopies are still around.

Time's change. People run games differently now than they used to - online, travelling further so don't want to carry books, easier to update with errata, lack of physical storage space, etc. PDFs make running things far easier (referencing/taking copies of maps/creating props/etc). Also, if the PDF of 'Tales...' hadn't been released then I simply wouldn't be playing TOR and would probably have re-started my Pendragon campaign.

* I don't have a face-to-face group, and haven't for about 10 years - since our eldest child was born. My original group is scattered across the country, we have family commitments and the one I've managed to build up is an online group (we use Fantasy Grounds virtual tabletop).
* I run games online. It's easier to refer to a PDF on one screen and the game on another, rather than having players waiting while I flick though the books. Okay at the game table, but not so much when it's virtual and the players can't see that's what is happening.
* Preparation for the game takes a lot longer as I can't just cut & paste some descriptive text from the adventure on the fly, rather than having to anticipate that scene/area/NPC coming up and typing it in before hand. Adventures being run for the players would be far less free-form and more scripted - frustrating for the players to be rail-roaded.
* Learning the rules or reading the adventure in the first place is easier with a PDF version as I can just load it on to my Kindle and read on the train going in to work, rather than having to cart (close-to) A4 size books around.

Not saying that it would be impossible, just a lot harder to run games. There are other systems that would have the PDF support and those would be easier to play.

Personally, I find it much easier to skim through a physical book at my elbow.

Going through a pdf can be a real chore on times.

And that's fine - perosnally I think the two versions go hand in hand and I need both to make my gaming experience as enjoyable as possible. But as we've mentioned above there are others that this will affect and therefore C7 will see a loss in sales. We'll have to see how bad that is for them - I'm hoping it isn't as otherwise that Tolkien license will get awfully expensive...

Well, I find it easier to read a dead-tree book from start to end, but easier to search information in a PDF, because of the clickable index.

But for me, the biggest problem would be the additional delay. I've yet to start Tales from Wilderlands, but I already introduced in my current adventures many details I read from the PDF. Having the material in advance means I can adapt it to my games and my players.

Ouch. Not a show stopper, but definitely inconvenient. I have really enjoyed getting the PDFs while waiting on the physical copies of the books. I still haven't received "Tales from the Wilderland", but I have already run two of the adventures from it.

I also travel a lot and really enjoy having a copy of my books on my iPad. To me an unfortunate additional side effect of not offering PDF is digital pirating goes up. People seem to feel more justified snagging a scanned copy off of the internet if they can't buy the PDF. That is NEVER good for anyone, customers or companies.

I love the game and will continue to run and play it, PDFs or not. But it is an inconvenience.

I think people grabbing pirate pdfs is pretty much guaranteed if legitimate ones are not available.

I wonder if pdfs of handouts will be made available online? As a previous poster mentioned pdfs are great for printing out maps as I for one don't like flattening out my books on a photocopier.

I think that people have to remember that the PDF was pretty much a special feature offered as a favour to us the consumers by Cubicle 7. As I mentioned in the Yggdrasill forum the PDFs are nice to skim through and get used to the rules until the book comes out, but for myself I can't read stuff like from a computer screen for very long, and looking stuff up is just a pain in the back side. If they are having some diffs with the licsencing, then back off a bit and they will either get it straightened out or they won't. If this is indeed the source of the problem it is not like it is C7s fault.

Do you have a source/reference to that because based on my knowledge of the RPG industry they are very much an established purchase medium for many customers and were not created 'as a favour' for TOR (or any other of C7's products for that matter).

What?! Are you saying that C7 is under some type of obligation to deliver a PDF version of its products? Just because other companies are doing it, dosen't mean that C7 has to. AFAIK this is just an incentive to sweeten the pot until the actual "hard" product hits the shelves.

I'm just really surprised at the negativity flying around here with this and the cancellation of the GenCon Special Edition. This is the publishing industry, stuff happens at the last minute. And these types of licenses can be a real head ache for gaming companies. Problems with the Herbert estate was the reason the LUG/WOTC Dune game collapsed in on itself, had nothing to do with the companies in question.

Most companies that do a print+pdf option have priced the product that way. You're not really getting a freebie. Having the print+pdf option go away would not be a "deal breaker" to me, but would make me think twice about the product.

I think someone from C7 is going to have to go through the main website, just a glance at a few pages reveals there are mentions of access to pdfs, free and otherwise, including the page advertising "Tales from the Wilderness". "Words of the Wise" is up for an award and now is unavailable to anyone but the lucky ones who got it before the pdf issue reared it's ugly head.

This is going to have a serious effect on C7 being able to offer any sort of frebbie to their fans. It'll all have to be HTML based (which can be a pain to print if not formatted properly - pdfs were usually formatted to A4 or close), if they are even allowed to offer anything at all online. So many issues now arise from this really annoying blow.

Frustrating doesn't quite touch it.

No I'm not. I meant exactly what I put. To reiterate:

1) Where's your source for C7 offering PDFs 'as a favour for us' (ie, rather than as a product/format that is there for them to make money/sales).

2) PDFs as a standalone media are quite prevalent in the RPG industry now as people don't always purchase hard copy versions of books now. Having to withdraw such a medium will affect sales.

3) Dead tree + PDF purchase options (very often) also have a higher price than the standalone hard copy version so it isn't offered free 'as a favour for us'.

4) PDFs weren't an incentive to sweeten the pot until hard copy products hit the shelves as PDFs (through DrivethruRPG) could be purchased without the dead-tree version (ie, refer to point 2). They are a viable format in their own right. You may not appreciate them as much as hard copy versions but other people do. The lack of PDFs for some gamers will result in a no-purchase for them.

Tolkien Enterprises are bloody good! And they are working with Epson!

I was trying to print another copy of the hex map for TOR again and my printer decided to stop printing in cyan. Trust me, pink is not a good colour for that map.

Changed the cartridge and still not working.

Decided to go for grey scale and black doesn't work now!

Don't know how they did it, but Tolkien Enterprises killed my printer!


One ink to rule them all,
One ink to find them,
One ink to bring them all,
And ink the darkness bind them!

Pitchforks, check. Storm castle?

If "Words of the Wise" has to be removed (it wasn't being sold on drivethrurpg was it), does that mean the pdf index has to go to?

... And watch out for the Ninja Hobbits of TE - they'll be coming round our houses and making us delete all PDFs that we have related to this game.

Fly, fly! The enemy is upon us!

Wouldn't be surprised they aren't creating the "Eye of Sauron" virus to remove it when we least expect it!
The firewall is closed, YOU SHALL NOT PASS!

I'm sorry but I still don't see your point. Sure the PDF version is a way for them to "pad" sales, but if they (C7) dosen't issue them I don't think it will really impact sales.

" The lack of PDFs for some gamers will result in a no-purchase for them."

The only response I have, regrettable as it is, is "that is their choice."

It was on Drivethru, but free download.

The index is still on C7 homepage... but grab it quickly... just in case!

They can bloody try, but I keep many backups of PDF's!

Anyway, Ninja Hobbits are too short to reach my keyboard... but they are very very quiet!

If it wasn't going to impact sales, RPG companies (including C7) really wouldn't bother selling them then. DrivethruRPG is built on the sale of electronic RPG products so there is a significant amount of RPGers that this is important to. In the modern RPG industry its a pretty important source of revenue, particularly for smaller companies, but I would suspect for most (whatever their size).

You may not be too worried. But if sales are hit, then the profitability of the line will go down and that could well mean its too expensive to continue the license. This could all occur a couple of years down the line so you may get some products but perhaps not as many as with a stronger hardcopy + pdf sales model.

I'm sure C7 are extremely concerned about this turn of events. It makes TOR the only (major) product line in their portfolio that doesn't have pdf product options.

That's the spirit!

Remember, they are excellent burglars as well. One of them could be feeding you yummy cakes and things while the others (on stilts) access your computer. Then, BANG! They've got you!

The drivethru thing - Sorry, my post read a little awkward. What I meant was "Words of the Wise" wasn't being sold on drivethru, it was free (as you say). C7 policy as stated today is no pdfs at all (though under review) - so neither ones for sale or the free ones, as we have seen, the free "Words of the Wise" is gone too. I would definitely recommend anyone gets the index too, because I can't see why one free item would be removed and the other not. Same goes for any pdfs currently linked to on the main C7 website, if you haven't already got them, including the character sheets, I'd get them now because if "Words of the Wise" (a freebie) is removeable, so is everything else.

First off DriveThruRPG is not, AFAIK, an RPG company, but a clearing house for RPG products (sure it will hurt them). Wow! I didn't realize that the PDF was the lynch pin of the gaming industry. Where did I put that zip drive with the PDF version of D&D that I bought in the early '90s? Wait, that was before PDF came out. The RPG gaming industry has been going strong for(what?) almost 30 years without PDF, I think it will continue beyond this little hiccup.

I'm sure that the gents at C7 are a little concerned what this will do to sales, but I doubt it will impact the bottomline enough to collapse the TOR line, or any other product line they carry.

It could be that the adventure has been removed as it has setting/plot/adventure content (unlike character sheets and the index) which could overlap with PJ's expanded films - which is where the legal problem may be. Assuming there is such a legal problem.

Cakes won't work and I can out drink a hobbit as they can't handle pints!

Going to have create a Johnny Mnemonic style interface. Sure I can find some memories to ditch and replace with PDF's.

Seriously, I will miss the PDF's, but will certainly not be cancelling any orders.

Although I'm going to be tweaking the rules a bit (but everyone tweaks), I love the system and can see years of pleasure ahead of me writing for TOR!

Really no need for the snark, Beran. Thanks.

I am not snarking, but I am trying to point out the uselessness of panicing before a problem exists. The sky is not falling, yet.

Well, I think you were snarking - others have posted fairly reasoned points (which you may not agree with - and that's fine) but you were the one posting things like:

"Wow! I didn't realize that the PDF was the lynch pin of the gaming industry"

and:

"Where did I put that zip drive with the PDF version of D&D that I bought in the early '90s? Wait, that was before PDF came out."

Looks to me like snark/sarcasm. If you'd have been a little more reasoned/considered in your post it may have read/looked differently.

I don't think people are really panicking, though. Some just understand that the RPG industry has changed in the last few years and for many people it is no longer like it used to be so they are concerned that this will impact in a negative way. As sole PDF purchasers will not buy into the line at all and those that like PDFs may re-consider and not invest as much as they would have done. I share their concerns, you don't. And that's fine. I hope you're right but I know its going to impact my ability to run this game so I may be someone who's going to drop it and run some other game for my group - I'll have to see how things develop over the next week or two.

Though I can run a game with just a hard copy, there is significant value to me to have the RPG in PDF as well or instead. So, whilst the removal of PDFs does not prevent me from running or playing TOR, it does make it less appealing. I think this is understandable to most.

Rich - My gut is saying it isn't down to plot or area covered - if this was so, FFG would be in the same situation. We are back to license again - film vs book. Whatever PJ does with his three Hobbit films, it shouldn't affect stuff being produced on the book license. The films are using the books as background, but they aren't the same story. I am sure the Darkening of Mirkwood will touch on things like Dol Guldur which will feature in one of the upcoming films. If for some crazy reason a film license is dictating what can be done with the book license, they anything Mirkwood based is going to have issues. And if they wanted one story to be told, the license wouldn't be out to Wizkids, Games Workshop and other competiting companies who aren't presenting a unified story or product, even when they have the film license.

I am thinking this is more legal issues over electronic distribution and a challenge to that. What I don't get is why remove free pdfs that have been out for a while, winning awards, and much advertised. Why now? I was wondering if someone would have issues with a collection of freebies being sold (ie the GenCon stuff) - I didn't, I think I may have been the or one of the first to preorder the GenCon book, I like pdf and paper.

Whilst I'm pretty sure you've settled things whilst I was typing this: Let's keep it civil, please folks.

Baseless speculation in any given direction whilst entirely understandable in the circumstances is not something anyone can prove nor disprove, so seems to me to be ripe fodder for argument rather than discussion.

I also think it's entirely understandable people are worried, annoyed, frustrated and confused at this juncture. But we're all very reasonable, smart adults 99.9% of the time we're using this almost uniformly well-mannered forum, so despite prevailing conditions, let's be cool to one another?

Thanks!






Just to be clear, as stated in another thread, I am not in a position to answer questions.

Don't know about the rest of you, but normally I use PDF's as a source of maps and handouts... although I did end up printing TfW due to the shipping delay.

So the PDF restriction maybe not apply to jpg's, perhaps allowing C7 to post a few things for us.