Fair enough. But, you have to admit that in this thread and the one about the GenCon Special being cancelled, there is a lot of unnecessary negativity aimed at C7. How do you think that makes Dom and the rest of them feel? I know if it were me I would be questioning why I was in this business in first place. These guys have the talent/experience to be in any business they put their minds to, and because of a couple reversals that they more then likely had no control over they are suddenly taking alot of flack from the people around here.

My overall point is let's cool our jets, stop the cries of "the sky is falling" and wait and see what happens.

I think offering PDF versions of their property is as much a favour to the buyers as selling DVDs and Blurays and TV licenses of films that are conceived for the big screen is a favour to movie fans.

I'm not demanding C7 to give me PDFs for free, I will pay for them the same way I pay for print books. PDFs are a media type that is easier to consume for me (traveling a lot, having a gaming group far away from home) the same way DVDs or digital movie downloads are an easier way for me to consume movies (having a family and thus far less time than necessary to see every movie I'd like to in a theater).

Sure, you can prevent me from consuming these properties. Still it is disrespectful for me as a fan and a bad business decision for them as a seller of stuff.

Anyways, I don't get why people argue against an additional channel besides books only because they themselves prefer books. What's your point? Nobody is going to take the books away (I love books myself). But for some people that might not be you get additional value from PDFs. Even if you don't see or get it.

Those are great points timb and you're probably right. Just trying to throw some ideas around and understand what crap C7 are dealing with here as such a dumb decision certainly doesn't come from them!

This is the crux of the matter - why specifically pdfs? Is this an issue with electronic distribution or "online books"? Characters sheets can be done as jpgs, no problems there. You could even do one-page "adventure sheets" and such. It sounds like fingers have been burned and online distribution is a no-no. I am interested to know what can be put and what can't.

A real shame about pdfs because a while back C7 were talking about maybe a series of online adventures. Now anything like that will have to be published and we know that printing takes quite a long time - I checked before, I pre-ordered "Tales from the Wilderland" back in March 2012.

Another thought, in terms of the GenCon freebie - from other licensed products, the fact it got to printing stage means it must have been approved by Middle Earth Enterprises. They must have looked at it. So what did change?

Sorry, I really don't think there are a lot of negative comments aimed at Dom and the guys. I think most of us suspect its some kind of license issue and at most we'd like more information from Dom so are prodding for it - though that may not be possible due to confidentiality clauses and the like. A response saying that would be great so we could stop prodding. People have been pretty civil, expressing their disappointment, wanting more information and then discussing what could have caused it. I haven't seen a post suggesting its C7's fault - though I could have missed one, but if I would have seen one I (and others) would have really stepped in and defended the guys, I believe.

"The [TOR] sky may not be falling" for you, but for some it has as no PDFs means no TOR game. Those people are bound to be upset.

That's another good point. Makes you wonder if in fact there has been some piracy problems and the license owner (is it Tolkien Enterprises?) has stepped in and requested that they be removed temporarily/permanently.

Its a strange one, certainly.

This is speculation based on similar issues WotC had with releasing Star Wars RPG products in PDF, but I don't think its limited to PDF but is likely to be cover any electronic products. It may not have arisen from piracy concerns, simply a tightening of the licence terms. Words of the Wise has been pulled, but the Index and character sheets haven't, so it may be limited to electronic products sold for profit.

Has Words of the Wise been 'sold for profit'? It was a free PDF wasn't it? Or now that it was going to be included in the GenCon book could that have changed its status?

True. I am guessing that the Gencon book was pulled so that C7 can collate several of the adventures they planned for PDF release can be collated into print form. Words of the Wise may have been pulled for that reason.

If not then, it may also be distinguished on the basis that it contained new IP content where the Index and character sheets don't.

"...I really don't think there are a lot of negative comments aimed at Dom and the guys."

Really? Over on the GenCon Special thread their are accusations of "bad customer service", and people saying that their enthusiasm for the game will not recover to the point where it was before this happened. These may not be aimed directly at the staff, but I bet it doesn't make them feel very good.

Anyway I am stepping away from this now. You see this as the iceberg that will sink TOR, I don't. You don't see any negativity aimed at C7, I do.

I will finish this with a message to C7 I have played TOR, have the PDF of Yggdrasill and can't wait for the book to get here. You have done a great job with the TOR, and Yggdrasill looks to be a great game as well. Keep hitting out of the park!

I don't think PDFs were the generousity of Cubicle since many people actually prefer products with PDF and it's like saying publishing ads were a generousity. It makes them sell better. Also many companies sell PDFs or Bundles at a different price than only dead tree versions.

But I don't think bashing and being angry at Cubicle is right since this is clearly not their making and they're also victim as we are to this whatever licence or some other problem we are facing. Just wait a little time and I'm sure everything will be OK.

Ok, I know I said I was stepping away, but I just have to say...exactly.

I think Rich is right, no one is aiming their frustration at C7 or anyone within the company specifically. It's more about the situation. We as fans are passionate about this product, C7 are passionate about the product. We are hungry for more books. It's been a long year since the release of the game. I know the C7 are passionate about getting this game to us. I can remember Angus going out on a Sunday/Monday to get the pre-orders boxed away to get them out to us. You could tell he was shattered from doing it. Dom has been getting the newsletters out to us because we demanded it. This is frustrating all round. Two weeks away from GenCon and it feels like a kick in a place that shouldn't be kicked, because it looked full steam ahead, and more. After a long year of waiting.

I can understand you are concerned about C7. I am sure everyone else on here is too, because I know from working in customer service how much of a blow it is to have to let someone down. It feels crap. I think it's a double blow from the customer side - the loss of something you were looking forward to and the not knowing the real reason why. I work in a library, knowledge is important. Knowing why can sometimes help, but we may not be allowed to know why, there may be legal reasons.

Plus WOTC had many free items as pdfs, including a series of adventures and game guides. None were sold. They were all eventually removed due to the license ending and Lucasfilm basically saying, "You don't have the right to have any SW material on your website".

Look, Beran, I already said in my previous post I may have missed some comments, I never said categorically that there weren't any comments, okay? I mentioned on that thread [the GenCon cancellation one] right at the start that it "wasn't great customer service" not communicating more (assuming they could), so if that's what you're referring to then you've quoted that incorrectly as 'not great' does not automatically mean 'bad'.

And people expressing loss of enthusiasm for the game isn't hammering Dom and the guys (not that you said it was, mind) - its just expressing profound disappointment. Its also informing them as customers as to where they stand - such information is extremely valuable to C7 as it keeps them informed. That may be disappointing for Dom to read but it is a direct line between him and his customers.

I don't think I've ever said categorically that it will sink TOR - I said that the loss of the PDF selling point could well affect sales and this *could* damage profitability and *could* impact negatively on the line which *could* mean the line not developing fully or being cancelled or the contract not being renewed. I even said in the post where I made that comment that I hoped you were correct and I was wrong, so I've been more than reasonable in my posts - as have others in my opinion. And the fact we have different opinions is fine and not a problem. Least for me, anyway.

I really don't think the majority of people have been engaging in that at all to be honest. At least not here in this forum. There may be a couple of comments but by and large people have been disappointed, have even expressed that removal of PDF support would be/is a deal breaker to future purchases, and have speculated (largely) that it is a license issue and not C7's making. I really think some people need to go back and read the whole of these threads and they'll see that the vast majority of discussions supports what I'm saying above rather than the bashing of Dom and the guys at C7.

As someone who uses PDFs of games a lot, I appreciate any company publishing in this form and go for the PDF-only or Print/PDF items over any Print-only games. A lot of times I buy the PDF first to see if I like a game and then buy the Print later if I'm to run it or want a printed copy.

The comments I'm adding to the thread (back on page 1 now, page 4 came quick) aren't bashing C7. They are stating that I need PDFs to run my games effectively. As I have said in this thread and others on the subject, I run games online. I don't have a face-to-face group as I have family commitments and my old group is scattered across the country.

If anything, I think the comments being added to the threads on this subject would aid C7 and Sophisticated Games in their negotiations with Middle Earth Enterprises. It's not panic, it's stating our concern about the announcement. We don't have the full picture and are rightfully worried. We are letting C7 know, through the customer forum, that the announcement is going to affect a lot of people in a negative way, making games harder to run.

Valarian - erm... I'm pro pdf lol, or are you replying to the other poster in my quote?

I said it earlier today, not as a swipe at C7, but with this change in approach to selling I'll be changing my approach in buying. Whilst C7 were doing special pre-orders, extras (pdfs) with physical items, etc I was going to keep buying from the C7 store. With there being no incentive to buy direct, and the risk of an item getting damaged in the mail (it has happened, with Amazon orders to other orders), I'll go back to getting the products in my local shop. It's Manchester so costs a bit to travel there. Just means I guarantee the product isn't damanged and also means less frustration - I'll only go looking when there is a physical product out. But PDFs were really useful to me, as I guess they were to others.

The reality is that the gaming industry as a whole, just as is happening to other types of published literature, books, magazines and newspapers, is in the midst of converting to an electronic format. An ebook if you will.

I do not want, and have little need for, a dead tree version of non-critical literature. It simply takes up too much space, generates dust and, gods forbid you have to move, is just too heavy and awkward. All of these issues are resolved by the existence of a PDF version of the material. I would readily consider an alternate format, provided it allows annotation and other user addendum/mark-up so that my alterations can be included/associated with the original file.

The loss of this, or similar formats, means that my willingness to purchase TOR products has decreased. This is a negative impact to SG/C7 and the TOR product line. In this manner only is their any negativity directed toward SG/C7 or TOR. I am not angry with either of those two parties. Nor do I want to forgo the TOR products but if they no longer suit my needs, what is the point of purchasing them?

I lay the blame for this situation squarely upon The Saul Zaentz Company, doing business as Middle-earth Enterprises (formerly known as Tolkien Enterprises).

My guess is that MeE licensed the rights to all electronic material distribution to someone and only afterwords discovered that SG/C7 is producing PDFs, thus being in violation of the license - whether their own or this 3rd parties. Be advised this is completely unsubstantiated guesswork on my part. I doubt piracy is an issue because it is, has and always will be an issue for any type of media release.

timb - backing you up, I think. I was continuing that thread of thought. Responding to the previous poster as you were and also adding my perspective. As someone who is trying to juggle full-time work, family and trying to get a game in here and there - continuing to enjoy a hobby I love and have loved for many years.

I think most here recognise that C7 and Sophisticated Games are unlikely to be the cause of the problem. However, as customers of them, we are unable to present our complaint directly to Middle Earth Enterprises. We have to present them to C7 as the publisher, who then go to Sophisticated Games as the licensee, who then go to Middle Earth Enterprises as the license issuer.

This is possibly the best game system I've played for years. It would be a shame to see it fail due to problems with the license - especially if the problem is that the license issuer is after more money due to a film coming out at the end of the year. The film has been in the pipeline for a long time and the game was released within the period when having a film of The Hobbit was a definite possibility (if there can be such a thing). It would be annoying if they were using their power and position to "renegotiate" terms regarding The One Ring RPG.

As an aside, I wonder if FFG are looking for a new system for their Midnight setting

I think you (as well as others) are pretty close to the mark on this Garn. If that is the case, it will be interesting to see how this pans out and if C7 try and negotiate PDF releases in the future. I doubt it though with the track record of Middle Earth (Tolkien) Enterprises.

In my opinion, the publishers in the role-play gaming industry are well in advance of other book publishers and could probably teach more traditional publishers a thing or two. C7 is especially good at the PDF format as they bother to add bookmarks in the PDFs of their games. Not many companies do, and it makes the PDF a lot more usable at the (virtual) gaming table.

My fear is that you are right.

Assuming this is close to the mark, then that could really antagonise Middle Earth Enterprises... They aren't known for being particularly tolerable are they? I hope they give C7 the benefit of the doubt on this if that's the case.

If the situation is as Garn speculates, then C7/Sophisticated Games may have been unaware of the other party's license terms. Probably it's only when MeE starts reviewing license agreements does the problem come to light. As C7/Sophisticated Games have cooperated quickly, I can't see that it would have a negative effect such as a license pull - and Dom has stated that the line is okay, so I can't see this being a problem. I can only hope that the problem can be sorted quickly and that PDFs of the books are back on the menu soon as a product option.

Ok, I have one question to ask. It has been mentioned that the hard cover book takes up space, generates dust and is a pain if you have to move; accepted. Now, the question is aimed at Rich H and Valarian (I think) who orginally posted (this may have been back peddled I can't remember) that it was "essential" (ie could not run their games) to have a PDF version of the game as they did not have a face to face group. My question is why is it essential? From what you said you are either running/playing a forum based PbP or by Skype (or similar medium); is it really that much more difficult to consult a book you have at your elbow?

The value they place on using a PDF for running RPGs is personal to them. You may well not share it, so why concern yourself with how they prefer to run their games?

FWIW I have friends who can't run an RPG from a PDF only. Different strokes, y'know.

How does a pdf work into copyright law anyway? Doesn't it open the door for IP piracy?

"The value they place on using a PDF for running RPGs is personal to them. You may well not share it, so why concern yourself with how they prefer to run their games? "

To understand their POV.

I would refer you to my post on Page 1 with the pertinent points highlighted.

I run using a virtual tabletop (Fantasy Grounds). This is online real-time play, with the players and GM typing the story in to a chat frame. The tool takes the place of the game table, with images being shared instead of on the table and the story being written rather than spoken face-to-face. The GM's machine becomes a server that the players connect to, so material stays on the GM's machine or is downloaded in encrypted form (the code to display the character sheet and combat tracker for instance).

Decent descriptive text takes a little while to type out, the PDF allows me to pull scenes or area description to the chat while still letting the players run free-form. Not having a PDF would mean that I'd have to pre-script more - making adventures less free-form and more rail-roaded.

The PDF means I can quickly switch (ALT-Tab) from one window (the game) to the other (the rulebooks) to look up a rule. It takes less time and I can quickly Alt-TAB back to the game window to respond to something a player says. If I'm looking away from the screen and have my nose in the books looking for something then I'll potentially take longer to respond to the players - making them wonder if the GM has gone for coffee.

As I have stated, not having PDFs wouldn't make it impossible - but it would make running a game harder, games would take more time to prepare for and the adventures run may not be as free-form. All of this reducing the enjoyment from the game for GM and for players.

No more than physical books I would have thought. The main difference is the ease of distribution.

Maybe a picture would help to illustrate why I need PDFs. None of the material leaves my machine in readable form if anyone seeing this thinks it goes beyond fair (personal) use of copyright material.


This is an example from the intro game I ran. Most stuff I run is far more free-form, with me reacting to the players intentions for their characters. For instance, the current adventure has fore-shadowed Kinstrife and Dark Tidings and A Darkness in the Marshes. The NPCs have come in to play, some description of s and some of the situations. With not knowing where the PCs are going, or what they will do when they get there, having material I can call on quickly really helps.

Here are some of the reasons why I value PDFs outside of their lower cost and quickness of delivery:

1. I do most of my gaming prep and reading on a train. I use an iPad and this allows me to have multiple books and other resources at hand in a far more convenient physical format than several RPG books.

2. I don't game at my house very often, so portability is a big issue.

3. Gaming over the internet can involve Maptools or other programs where a PDF is useful for images, text etc

4. I game over the internet most often at work (yeah, I know ) where a physical book would raise questions but a PDFs doesn't.

5. The more I use PDFs the more I find the likes of word searching to be invaluable at the table.

6. I also use PDFs to create props and handouts for my game. This allows me to create fast play monster stats, player aids and the like. A physical books does not allow for these.

My point exactly. Say Joe bought the pdf version of TOR and then saved a copy on a zip drive for a friend (who did not pay for it?) I know that it isn't that different from photocopying a book, but it is cheaper and easier.

I'm sorry Beran, I don't think I ever said it was essential and never said I didn't have a face-to-face gaming group. I think that's Valarian. I know people in his situation though where PDF's are absolute necessities. The strongest statement I made was that I didn't *think* I could run the game without PDF support as it would affect my enjoyment so much and the ease of running it, and that I'd have to consider my support of it [TOR] over the next couple of weeks.

I've previously mentioned that without the PDF of "Tales..." I wouldn't have started running this game and I suspect that without it I would no longer be interested in TOR. I'd have re-started my Pendragon game and would be well on my way with that for the next 3 or 4 years - enjoying it immensely no doubt. TOR would have probably never been looked at beyond the core book. With the PDF of these adventures I was able to start running the game. This problem *could* happen to another future release, causing the gameline to stagnate without the availability of a PDF copy.

Also I don't like flicking through adventure books at the table - I print out the appropriate adventure and any maps or props or handouts, etc, when playing. I can't make notes on the book (well I can I suppose but not like a printout), I can't cut and paste adventure text into a word document and re-write parts of the adventure that I don't like, or paste things into it of my own creation. So lack of a PDF kills that avenue for me, removes any flexibility, and makes running the adventure a chore. Other games [that support PDFs] don't so I'll start to think, maybe I should go play those.

In addition, I use PDFs to create 'player guide' information on the setting, rules, character race background, traits, etc - cutting and pasting just the essentials for each player to read through in order to understand the game, the setting, and their character. Without PDFs I couldn't do this. Well, I could, but it'd mean typing loads of stuff from the book which I'm simply not interested in doing due to having far too many demands on my time. And again, other games let me do this so I'll start to think, maybe I should go play those.

[Note: none of the above things leave my gaming table. The players don't take anything away with them and so on so I think its all 'within personal/fair usage' to make such reference aids].

There are probably other things that I'm forgetting about* but PDFs really allow me to do what I want with a game in the most efficient way possible. Being so 'time poor' perhaps (now that I'm thinking about the above points) that does make PDFs essential for me - so maybe I am done with TOR. Pendragon's sat there on my shelf and hard drive and I'd have none of the above problems with it and know its also awesome (like TOR). And because its such a great game it makes it all the more frustrating - but I don't think I have the time to work with the limits of just a dead tree copy of a game anymore. If others are like me then it really does explain why so many are so hugely disappointed about what has happened. Dom and the guys must be gutted reading this kind of thing, but they do need to know as it is feedback and it is honest and genuine.

I suspect many of these things I've mentioned above are a real consideration for lots of gamers, never mind those that have to travel (carrying books) to their gaming group or playing online. Will leave such things to Valarian though as he'll explain his issues far better than me.

*Yep, portability... lower cost... can read anywhere... etc.

I don't think you want to open the large debate of PDFs and piracy here (there are lengthy discussions all over the place for and against the idea), as I don't think that's the reason C7 has pulled the PDFs. All you will acheive is a heated debate, which is not what is needed right now.

And would also be illegal. Unless Joe passes all material to his friend that he has access to (i.e. a loan) and removes his own access to the same material for the duration of the loan.

Illegal, most definitely. But, what stops them from doing so?

Whoops, unintentional thread-jack. Sorry.

Is this really relevant? C7 haven't taken down all PDF support to all their products, just TOR. I suggest if you want to discuss copyright issues of PDFs in such an encompassing way you start a separate thread on it (and probably on a more catch-all forum; RPGnet for instance).

Thanks. (cross-posted with my above comment).

Quite right. See above.

Which lends credibility to the fact that it is a licensing issue.

I you look back on the previous page myself and Valarian (and Skywalker) have tried to answer your queries about why PDFs are so important to us - and in some very different and specific ways.