We don't know what has happened. If you look at other licenced RPGs with similar restrictions - Star Wars and Advanced Fighting Fantasy - its simply a matter of PDFs falling over the line of what is an electronic product, which is usually under a seperate licence that someone else has paid for.

I understand you fail to see the value in PDFs, but please stop trying to derail this thread with your suspicions. If PDFs were of no value, people wouldn't pay for them. What value a person attributes to a PDF is their own judgement.

Valarian has explained (briefly) and shown how he runs things and I begin to see his POV. Do you use a similar format?

Just read my damn post, man!

"...but please stop trying to derail this thread with your suspicions."

Pardon?

You have recognised that the IP piracy issue of PDFs is a threadjack. I am happy to leave it there.

Ah, Rich H and Skywalker I see it now...you're Technocrats.

Sorry guys, I some how missed those two posts. Good points, and I can understand (most of them). Too bad you see it as show stopper for TOR Rich, but Pendragon is also an awesome game. Hope you change your mind.

The weird thing is that I recently had almost the identical discussion with a person vowing off an RPG when it was announced that print versions of the game were cancelled and it was PDF only. He could just not operate from a PDF based on reasons which I now struggle to understand

As said, different strokes. Personally, I prefer having both.

That's good to know - we got there in the end, eh!

I hope I change my mind. I hope C7 can start releasing PDFs again, as well. We shall see what we may...

Me too. For this particular game I really have needed the PDFs though. I like having both versions of the books though and some are better as PDFs than as dead tree versions (eg, adventure books) and vice versa (eg, GM screens)!

That is really silly, especially if you enjoyed the game.

I have the PDF of Yggdrasill (a game I can highly recommend if you are looking for a replacement for TOR BTW ) and I like it from the POV that it allows me to digest the rules before the book comes out and any play can begin. For myself I have bifocals and have to cock my head back to read a computer a screen. Not a problem for most of everyday usage, but to sit and read something for a long period of time is literally a pain in the neck.

I am not giving up on TOR. I was just noting that 'no PDF' is a value decrease for me and I will react accordingly.

Sorry, it was an option aimed more at Rich H, just in case he does drop TOR.

Sigh.

TOR is a great game.

But...

A year after the core books were published, we still have no sourcebooks or supplements.

Now, the PDFs that used to be available have been pulled.

And as mentioned throughout this thread, the company tells us customers next to nothing about what is going on. Just cryptic statements and vague promises.

C7 is fast losing this customer's faith.

Gah! Playing Serious amounts of catch-up here in C7-Land, so bear with me if I'm a bit out of whack response wise.


Beran
I cannot speak for other PDF users, but with a well crafted PDF and better viewer software (Adobe Acrobat, Foxit Reader, and some others - but not all) you can search through the entire manual in a couple of minutes. In addition you can annotate the original text. So the few confirmed errata can actually be noted directly in the PDF document preventing having to mark a physical copy via writing, highlighting, sticky note, etc. You can also highlight points you feel need additional consideration without permanently marring a book (or finding out after the fact that it was a poor quality ink that bleeds through or causes degradation of the original ink used). Lastly their is a measurement tool built into the software for accurate point to point measurement (you have to enter the scale manually).

As to IP Piracy... The only way to prevent piracy in any form what-so-ever is to not produce your idea. Period. Otherwise at the very least you will get copycat products that are similar although not direct theft. The only way to retain copyright is to vigorously defend your copyrighted material from unauthorized use and/or variant application. Thus the litigious prevalence among the MeE lawyers (not to mention that if Tolkien. Tolkien Estate and MeE was credited with royalties from all copycats they would be worth multiple billions, if not a trillion, dollars).

Brooke,
I understand and agree with your frustration. Unfortunately I am just as sure that commentary is particularly and specifically legally proscribed through a Non-Disclosure Agreement with regards to any dispute between the parties.

I am certain that once this issue began SG/C7 was kind of hoping it would be resolved before anyone really noticed. The timing was particularly unfortunate (from both SG/C7's & MeE's perspectives).

Sure it will, if, as in the case of Tales of Wilderland, the promised print copy never seems to materialize! As it stands, right now, one year after product launch, C7 offers exactly one TOR product in print, namely the core books. It had some extra stuff available as PDF, but none that's gone. Sorry, but I'm about to write off the game.

Shame. It had real promise.

Frankly, I don't care whose fault it is. All I know is that I am seeing the company decrease rather than increase its support for this product line. And that is not encouraging for the product line's health.

Bottom line: lose of PDF might not sink the line. But, C7 has proven slow getting print copies into players' hands. It has gotten PDFs to us much quicker. Having to wait a year for the first supplement was bad enough, but at this point, given the delays in getting out print copies, I'm thinking it's going to be closer to 18 months, maybe a full two years, between the release of the core books and when I finally hold a copy of the first supplement in my grubby little hands. And frankly, that is a poorly supported line, by any measure, no matter the reason.

Ok, guys I could agree with you if TOR was C7s only product line. But, they also have DW, Primeval, Laundry, Yggdrasill and I probably am missing one in their major lines, as well as quite a few minor ones on the go at once. If anything C7 can only be accused of doing too much. So, what to do? Cut a line? Which one DW, Primeval, Yggdrasill? What does that accomplish? The TOR crowd will be happy, but the fans of whatever line that got cut will be howling. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. I agree it is a little odd they haven't been able to put anything out after a year, but estates like Tolkien's can be very picky what they attach their name to.

All I am saying is give C7 a chance, they maybe able to settle this. It hasn't been said the pdf line is dead, just shut down for the moment.

You know in a way this is kind of refreshing. I'm usually the doomsayer in situations like this. Now, I get to be a Lightbringer! Yay, me! Oh, wait Lightbringer in Greek is Lucifer...Hmm, perhaps I shouldn't use that term.

Look, I'm not blaming C7. I'm not blaming any one. This isn't about putting blame anywhere. It's about recognizing that the writing is on the wall. Products are being both cancelled and withdrawn from the market. That is not the sign of a healthy product line. I do not expect to ever purchase another TOR product from C7, not because I intend to take my business elsewhere, but because frankly I don't expect them to make product available for purchase.

Will I be glad if C7 proves me wrong? Sure, but not an optimist at this point.

Items have temporarily (at the moment) been pulled from the market, yes. Nothing has been cancelled from what I can see. The only thing that could be cancelled is the pdf versions, but even that isn't written in stone, yet. But, if you are determined to be a "glass half empty" type, far be it from me to try and talk you out of it.

The GenCon Special Edition has been cancelled. No indication has been given, from what I can see, that this product will become available at any given time. Maybe it will, but then again, we were warned by the good folks at C7 not to speculate.

Now, if and when the Lake-town Sourcebook goes on the market, I will put in a pre-order. No question. And I aim to purchase any product that comes out in the future. Product just needs to come out!

"The GenCon Special Edition has been cancelled. "

For Pete's sake! That wasn't even a product until a few weeks ago. How can you complain about that?

"Now, if and when the Lake-town Sourcebook goes on the market, I will put in a pre-order. No question. And I aim to purchase any product that comes out in the future. Product just needs to come out! "

Ok, that is a reasonable frame of mind.

I think the delays are due to licensing issues with Tolkien Enterprises. Plus with the extra layer of NDA's there is even less information than usual.

To paraphrase your analogy, there is writing on the wall, but half of it is on the other side behind a locked door.

Buck-up little goblin! We'll be there before you know it!



(Sorry. Had to say it.)

Complain? No. Express concern that C7 seems to cancelling more products in the TOR line than it is putting out? Absolutely. Heck, it just announced that it was cancelling and withdrawing from market every currently available product in this line besides the core book! And as a customer who wants to support the line, yeah, that is reason for concern.

"Tales from Wilderland - Adventure anthology playable as a campaign - August*

The One Ring Dice Set - Seven dice in hard plastic box - June

Loremaster’s Screen and Laketown Sourcebook - Heavy duty screen, and information about the busiest city in the North, including a new playable culture: the Men of the Lake - July/August*

The Darkening of Mirkwood - epic campaign sourcebook and adventures spanning over thirty years - Autumn 2012

Rivendell (title TBC) - core supplement introducing 'unique' cultures: Rangers of the North and Rivendell Elves. Includes material on The Last Homely House, the surrounding areas, magical artefacts, and more - Autumn"

They have cancelled the Gen Con special, which as I have said wasn't even a product until 3 weeks ago. Now, what on the above list have they also cancelled as a complete product (not just removed the pdf)?

I've skimmed over this thread, so I might have missed it. Is the cancelation of PDFs speculation, or was there an official announcement? If it's not official, could it be that there is simply some format change in the documents, or addition of errata?

By the way, I was glad to see the Tolkien Estate (the family) not being confused with Middle-earth Enterprises (Saul and the lawyers). Maybe that's the problem. If C7 went to the family to get permission to write a game based on The Silmarillion, I think there might be more freedom and less cancellation. (edit: But no hobbits - there's always a trade off!)

Looks to be official as there are no mention of the PDF versions of Core Rules or Tales of the Wilderlands on the C7 store.

I think there was an announcement in the C7 News thread some where, I could be wrong.

I don't know, I'm starting to get the same feeling I had when Decipher had the license - product delayed for long periods of time, product never delivered, promises of great things in the future if we're just a little patient, opaque communiques from the developers.

Doesn't bode well.

It's been a year, and we're still in Wilderland/Mirkwood. I love that region, but I don't want a Middle-earth game that stays in just one area of the world, one period of time in its history. Assuming the line does continue, at the rate of releases, we may finally come to Gondor and Mordor and the War of the Ring by the time I'm 49 years old, so 11 years from now.

Dominic the CEO of C7 has made a few posts. Support for TOR via PDFs has been suspended but they will continue to support their other RPGs with PDF. However, all TOR physical products are unaffected.

Still no offifcial statement explaining the situation but gist of it is clear that this is not a format change.

I'm - unfortunately - skeptical too. Much too often have I seen statements like "temporary suspension", "re-arranging the line" or "line basically unaffected by current issues" especially in context with Middle-earth related RPG products. Involvement of MEE (if it's the case here) does not translate into good news...

And it was always towards the end of the lines (MERP and LotRRPG - respectively) that these statements were heard. I still hope it's better this time, though I won't hold my breath.

BTW: I'd love to be proven wrong this time!

Cheers
Tolwen

"I'm starting to get the same feeling I had when Decipher had the license - product delayed for long periods of time, product never delivered, promises of great things in the future if we're just a little patient, opaque communiques from the developers."

Really? I don't remember hearing anything from those...guys at all when the line went under. To tell the truth I didn't even know the Dec line had gone under until about a year later, when I asked at my "local" gaming store.

We may not be getting a whole lot from C7, but at least they are trying to communicate. Besides, all they have to do is get the DoM out and that will keep the characters busy for the next 30 years of game play.

Yes, but they have to get it out. It has been a year since the core set, and still no physical product to follow that up. They keep saying, "Be patient," and frankly, I think we've been quite good about giving them the benefit of the doubt. It's getting to the "Show me the money" point (wherein "money" equals "product").

I'm less concerned with them folding up than I am with these damn, incessant Vibrant popups.


In any case, lets hope for the best and be happy with what we've received so far.


edit- ok just saw Dom's statement: But the line is secure, and there are many years of supplements etc planned. so that settles that.

And so what if the books are slow to come out? I've come to the conclusion that books coming out slow is a good thing, as they tend to be better written, proofread, and illustrated.

And who knows, publishing them after The Hobbit's release might increase sales.

Having slept on this I have a fresher perspective.

I'm happy that everything I said previously in this thread about PDFs etc still holds true, which I didn't expect to change.

I am personally invested in this game. I don't make any apologies for that at all - when you hold something so dear and realise how precious it is then you're going to be disappointed with worrying news - which this [cancellation of PDFs] is. Also, having chatted by email/forum posts to both Francesco and Jon over the months you do build up a relationship with those people which really makes things personal. Then there's my AP thread over on RPGnet - from there anyone can see how much effort I've poured into this (eg, painted figures, terrain, props like an antique map of the Wilderlands, etc). Yep, I've very heavily invested in this game and I've said to anyone who listens that I rate it up there with Pendragon (which in my opinion is the greatest RPG of all time). TOR is that good.

So, I'm still disappointed and concerned about the line, but realistically I have at least 6 months-worth of session material within the "Tales..." book/pdf which is a hell of a lot of 'actual play' material. In that time people will also produce other material and I can rip off adventures from ICE books etc. And during that time C7 will have to release some product - Lake Town and the Darkening of Mirkwood, for instance, perhaps others too.

To get around the lack of PDFs (assuming this is a permanent state which I think it will be) then I can see if each product has any information in it that I'd have liked to hold electronically. If it does then I'll scan it. If that means damaging the book to do so, then I'll buy a second book to do that, if having a pristine copy is so important to me.

Also, if I stopped running this I do actually think my players would kill me. Or at least never trust me to run a game again, so that really isn't an option.

That is the problem with losing the PDF line, though. If they didn't have the PDFs, we still wouldn't have Tales. Given the publishing model thus far, I assumed that the Lake-town Sourcebook would be available electronically in August, and then in print perhaps in the New Year. But right now, I'm thinking I won't actually be able to get a copy for another few months, at best. And, yeah, that's frustrating, and I won't make apologies for that frustration.

I (and others) have stated that earlier in the thread.

I believe we will see the Laketown sourcebook in September/October.

In fairness to C7, though, I think that Decipher's problem was very different. I think that Decipher itself was struggling as a company, in way that I don't see with C7. Their other product lines seem quite healthy, not least of all Doctor Who.