The use of The Hobbit and The LotR specifically within electronic media and the genre of gaming is held by someone (under license with ME) other than SG and thereby C7. You might say that is someone else's territory.

Most likely, the selling of essentially print (so-called hard media) material in the electronic format from which a printer produces C7s products was never thought to be an infringement on the legal right of another entity. Most likely, C7 thought they were doing something good for their gaming community only to learn after the fact that it was a problem to do so.

In my opinion, C7 always acted in good-faith with regards to their intentions. And, because of this, it would be unfair to hold this unfortunate situation against them.

That "someone" else who has the licensed right to use The Hobbit and The LotR for gaming purposes within electronic media realized another company (C7) was selling for profit products within their licensed space and brought it to the attention of ME. I this case, ME is not the "bad-guy" just the enforcer protecting the profit-territory of another company.

Within literary publishing, the rise of printing from electronic sources that are easily releasable to market irrespective of the hard-version they are meant to produce confuses exponentially license issues. Especially, when license agreements are as complex as those for The Hobbit and The LotR that are media-based agreements.

Note: When I use "media-based" I refer to for example performing arts media (I.e., film and stage), visual arts media (I.e., sculpture, casting, etc.), electronic gaming media (I.e., online gaming, etc.), so-called hard gaming media (I.e., board games, roleplaying games and the like). This is essentially the legal division between the TE and ME, literary media versus all other media.

This ends my future involvement with the game line. Having nowhere to keep them, I no longer buy print game-books. Dreadful shame, TOR is by far my favourite new rules set.

You have my sympathies there, mate. I'm sure if C7 can get back to producing PDFs then they will but such a resolution could be someway down the road.

There has been speculation that the pdf sales suspension is in some way linked to the announcement of the 3rd hobbit movie.

It could be that the PTB are making sure that the gaming materials do not conflict with the additional movie content.

As to why all pdfs were pulled, it's often easier to say "pull them all" rather than to specify which ones.

In any case, time will tell.

Well, I'm glad people are looking at this in a slightly more positive light this morning.

"This ends my future involvement with the game line. Having nowhere to keep them, I no longer buy print game-books. Dreadful shame, TOR is by far my favourite new rules set. "

That is regrettable.

I think people have discounted that theory quite early on and suspect it is more around digital distribution rights.

Oh, certainly, I think C7 has acted in good faith. For me, that's not the question. The question is whether the obvious difficulties they are facing in getting out product is going to destroy the line.

I'm late to the party, but...

the PDF was very little "favor" to me. It was, quite literally, the only way I could afford the books I bought. I would not have bought had the PDF not been available. Same for Tales from Wilderland. I didn't preorder; I bought PDF directly via DTRPG.

With no further PDF sales, my choices are, essentially, (1) buy nothing further, (2) quit TOR entirely, (3) Hope TOR slows down to the point that I can afford triple the prices I'm paying for PDF and not keep up on my other games I keep up on, or (4) get new materials via pirate scan.

Oh, and pirate scans of TFW were up the day BEFORE it was released on DTRPG... the Core Set was further before that... over a month. So either some preorderer leaked them, or a staffer, or the printer did.

Same here. I only have a physical copy of the core set because my brother gifted me with it. Otherwise, for a variety of reasons, I only purchase PDF nowadays. I was certainly planning to purchase the Lake Town sourcebook via PDF only. Largely it's about cost, ease of delivery, and convenience carrying the stuff around. And since I prefer not to pirate, especially with smaller companies like Cubicle 7, this makes a real difference in my purchasing decisions.

Now, for me, TOR is the only game I'm playing right, so if the products come out as infrequently as seems to be the case, then the cost factor is less of an issue. But ease of delivery and carrying convenience is still a factor. I'd rather have a number of PDFs on my netbook than a bunch of books I have to lug around.

The PDFs for preorders for C7 are fulfilled through DTRPG vouchers, so probably not a preorder. It's disturbing that pirate copies are so easily available.

I hear that and am right there with you.

Knowing that opinions have weighed in on both sides of the discussion as to the usefulness of PDFs...

It is sad to hear that so many wonderful voices that have enriched the forum over the months would leave the game because PDFs will no longer be available. On the other hand, as complex as is our times and the many difficulties presented in attempting to game face-to-face around the table, I can also understand that some people will not be able to for practical purposes expand and or stay with the game.

That is a loss in my opinion for the gaming community and this relatively young forum. Has the game only been out for a year...? With all the forum talk and interaction with TORs designers on this forum, I sometimes forget that we are at the beginning of a gaming line that has a lot of products in the pipeline for printed release. And, maybe that is the crux. With regards to Middle-earth, C7 sells first and foremost through SGs license printed games, physical products and not eProducts.

The hard reality is that SGs license is for printed games and not electronic games or gaming through electronic media. Unfortunately, some really precise legal person somewhere probably pointed out that sales of gaming PDFs constitute for-profit product release of gaming via electronic media. A no-no for a company who has been licensed to produce printed games, and a loss to us the community that has fallen in love with TOR.

Just some early morning thoughts I wanted to share on the forum. But, as Garn brought to my attention in another of my posts from this morning, thinking out-loud before coffee or tea at the least can be a "dangerous business."

Sincerely,
E

Unfortunately, pirating will only increase if DTRPG is not an option. For many people out there, DTRPG is their primary or even only mode of purchasing RPGs now. And yeah, this could very well be about a licensing issue. But, really, it doesn't matter what the reason is, as all I know is that my by far preferred option for purchasing product is indefinitely unavailable for TOR.

Personally, I think that the reality of modern publishing is that an eBook version (of whichever flavour) is expected. Publishers that do not engage with the eBook market are destined to fail. I've stated in previous posts that I think that the role-play gaming market is way ahead of traditional publishers in this. The success of DTRPG as a site for getting PDFs legally has attested to the appetite for soft media as a publication format. C7 have been very good at doing this in general, backing the Bits and Mortar movement and adding bookmarks to their PDF products, it would be a shame if this product line can't have the benefit of that commitment. It isn't an electronic game or gaming through electronic media, it's another publication format of a pen-and-paper game - like offering hardback and softback editions.

Unfortunately, PDFs as the medium for a gaming product are considered categorically electronic and virtual as opposed to a tangible product. If C7s products were considered other than games, say books, then that would place the product with the literary genre, and that would have nothing to do with ME. The TE maintains all rights to The Hobbit and The LotR within the literary genre, whether published through electronic media or otherwise. In that instance, I believe your logic would prevail.

Regards,
E

EDIT: This post by necessity was shortened from its original text.

There may be some wiggle room for C7 here in that RPGs in the UK are classed as BOOKS and not games therefore electronic copies of such items would be ebooks and nothing to do with electronic gaming. As C7 and Sophisicated Games are both UK companies (I believe) then this may be an avenue they may be able to explore.

From talking to people I do think C7 will be trying to find a way around this problem that's surfaced with PDFs so the above or something like it could be one of the things they are looking at. If its simply to do with electronic distribution then the above doesn't really matter but if it relates to *what* is being distributed electronically then the above could have a positive outcome.

We'll have to see what happens but I do hope some common sense can be applied to this ruling and C7 are allowed to use PDFs in the future. I really do think that not being able to do so will affect sales and could really impact on the future of the line because of this. Maybe we should all cross our (hobbit) fingers and toes!

Is there any official word on what happened? I think there were a couple of PDFs I had not yet downloaded from DTRPG. This is so disappointing...

The following link takes you to a summary of the news, but that's all we have!

http://cubicle7.clicdev.com/f/index.php?tr...&showtopic=3427

Plenty of speculation from forum users, but no facts!

Speaking for myself, it's much more efficient to run a text search or otherwise find info in a pdf than flipping through a book.

Also, I can run entire 4e campaigns from a tablet, including using the monster builder, viewing pdfs, referencing notes and dungeon/city maps that the players don't have access to, run the music playlist, etc. And that's a game with digital tools that make it easier (especially the compendium. Every game should have something like that)

For games without digital tools like an online compendium, games like TOR, it makes even more of a difference in some ways, since I can have all the relevant books open. GM and player books, adventures, whether published or home made (or even fan made), notes of houserules, maps, and digital copies of the character sheets and cut and pasted pages of monsters for given encounters. Having all of that on a tablet, or even a laptop, is just less intrusive, unwieldy and heavy than having it all in physical form.

Having the books on the same device with all the other stuff just makes good sense, and saves time and space.

I can also update my pdfs with both rules errata/clarifications and houserules/fan made expansions.

Also, the Index. I'm working on making two copies of it, one for each core book, and editing each book's copy into that book's pdf, replacing the somewhat lacking index in the books. That's going to make my life much easier.

I could run a game entirely without computers, but I'd much rather not.

Whoa - I go off line for a brief interlude and when I return the the First Age of TOR has ended!
That's a bit dramatic, but I am concerned & dismayed at these developments and the effect it has on our esteemed gaming community.
I concur with Eluadin -

It is my fervent hope that despite any product delays - or returning to 'old school gaming' (ie: hard-copy) - our wonderful TOR forum will continue with its enlightening game analyses, good-hearted rules debate, campaign discussions, adventure ideas and generally creative writing .... not to mention the fun banter and hearing how our friends' gaming experiences/lives are unfolding. We all participate for our own reasons - but what we defintitely do have despite its youth is a great think-tank & online community.
I most emphatically encourage all TOR- & ME- lovers to continue your much appreciated activity with The One Ring game and in this forum. Call me a 'glass half-full' guy (or maybe the glass was just too big to start with!?) but I look forward to sharing further interesting & creative discussions.

Even in the event that the TOR product-line ceased (and I am reassured it is secure at least in hardcopy - thank Eru!) - I envisage that we could/would/should continue supporting the TOR community through worthy interaction and sharing our creativity. Though we may not generate official game material - it is often informative and inspirational.
Chins up Middle Earth & TOR friends, our community is more than just the game products that inspire us.
Despite the burden of dark tidings - you heroically raise your chins toward the rising sun and stride forth .... onwards to adventure!

I don't know, it may be more "efficient" to use electronic medium for gaming; but, and you will have to forgive me this, it sounds like many on this forum are relaying too much on technology. Call me a "traditionalist" or "Luddite" (I don't even have a laptop at the moment), what have you, but the gaming industry has been going strong for 30+ years, it will survive this little hiccup. The situation may cause some people to re think their methods and go back to a more "archaic" way of doing things, or to get out all together. Personally, I think gamers are an adaptable lot.

One of the most useful features of PDF's is handouts, maps in particular.

If it's just the PDF format that is the issue with TOR, then it may be possible for C7 to supply us with jpegs of maps instead, or failing that... we can scan them ourselves as many printers now include the scanner as part of the design.

I also produce '6x4 monster cards' that are more convenient at the table, which have the stats, special abilities and such of the various bad guys in TOR. Again, more convenient to cut paste from a PDF, but not an issue to scan if necessary.

So in summary, and as Beran said, we will adapt.

Unfortunately, for me, if I couldn't game online then I wouldn't be gaming at all. With family commitments, work and a gaming group that is scattered and also have other commitments, it all adds up to not gaming at all - not a situation I want.

Without those 'efficient' methods you speak of Beran, many people wouldn't be gaming. I think we have to appreciate that peoples' private lives and commitmments change over the years and without pdfs (and other tools) many would not be able to commit time to RPing so the community would be far smaller as people would have simply stop gaming. In other words for many, its not a case of 'going back' to older ways of doing things its that the new ways allow people to game based on the small amount of time they have to do it.

It is just that this whole line of thinking strikes me like when I hear people saying if they lost their cell phone, ipad, laptop they would not be able to function. Which is one of the most frightening things I have ever heard someone utter.

Guess it depends how you define 'function'. If I lost my mobile phone and laptop then I wouldn't be able to run my business. If everyone lost them then business demands would adapt so I would 'compete' on an equal footing.

Turn the question around... Without print copies of RPGs (including no ability to print out), how would some people cope? Many would say they couldn't - "I can't read effectively, or for any real stretch of time, from a PDF so that's me done with this RPG" would be a common (and understandable) remark, for instance.

Print products are especially important this year.

If the Mayan's are right, we have an apocalyptic year ahead of us!

Not only do books burn, but they can be used for toilet paper and provide entertainment as we play RPG's after the apocalypse.

Note: Anyone with palladium games has a lot of toilet paper as those books are very thick.

Consider this. For a long time (70s, 80s, in to the 90s), roleplay gaming was something you did at college or school. Once you graduated, friends scattered and got jobs/families/other commitments and the books were all boxed away in the garage or attic as you got on with real life.

With the advent of the internet age, and virtual tabletops, I've been able to get back in to a hobby I enjoy. Without the PDFs, running this particular game would be a lot harder, and I'd probably look to go back to a system (like FATE) that does have the PDF support.

The Mayans think in circles, we go back to the beginning and start a new age. No apocalypse here, nothing to see, move along. Reset calendar and move on.

Rebooting the universe!!!

Are we one of the DC 52?

Or the next trilogy of Batman/Spiderman/Superman?

I just hope they don't reboot the Lord Of The Rings movies!

Ok, you're a luddite.

My group is scattered across 3000 miles... we play by skype, as we're in 4 different cities now. Without a PDF, I can't show people the rules - I load it, and do a screen share - they never get the PDF. Unless, of course, I either scan it myself or get pirate PDF.

Won't stop me from returning to TOR, but it will, absolutely, mean I'm not buying any more TOR. I lack room for more dead tree. I lack the money for the frightfully expensive dead tree C7 produces. And dead tree just doesn't fit my gaming needs.

"we play by skype, as we're in 4 different cities now. Without a PDF, I can't show people the rules..."

We have one group memeber who plays in our monthly game by Skype as well, and he bought the rules, so he had a copy at hand. I think this debate has reached a stalemate.

Why do you need to show them the rules?

Only the LM needs the rules to run the game.

When you're playing online as the GM, explaining the rules is either you typing the rules or using a pdf to copy and paste them. I know which is the least time consuming, most efficient, and the one I'd prefer. Reading them out isn't great as people don't process the information as easily often digesting them at a slower rate than the speaker is relaying the information. Individuals reading them is far easier/more preferable.

"When you're playing online as the GM, explaining the rules is either you typing the rules or using a pdf to copy and paste them."

Doesn't that, technically, breech the copyright?

Technically, it depends on how much you paste. The odd rule here and there would come under fair use, as a quotation or block reference would in a review. However, if large amounts of the rule book were to be reproduced then, yes, it would be breach of copyright as it's distribution, not personal use.

This is why I tend to use a virtual tabletop, where nothing leaves my PC in a readable form.

It's sad. I always buy the printed books and the PDFs. I like to have the eletronic book cause I can carry it easily on my iPad and not have to worry about how much it weights, specially with games that get a lot of supplements, as I hope this one will become.

Are the PDFs gone definitly or is there a chance they will be sold again later?

At the current point, unknown. They are not on sale currently and C7/SG are reviewing the situation.

I have a pretty sweaty, physical job but I like to read when I take a break. Usin GoodReader on my iPhone has been really handy. I hope the wisdom of a legal PDF option will prevail. I know from ICE MERP and other pre-PDF RPGs that there will be PDFs out there one way or another. Please keep it legal. I'm not advocating bootleg PDFs, I just think having legal books is a way to prevent them. Besides C7, Evil Hat, and the other Bits and Mortar publishers, Pinnacle and Paizo are other companies that do it well. M-E Enterprises (this is NOT the Tolkien Estate) needs to realize people use PDFs for many reasons, if nothing else to keep their physical copies nice and minty. We don't want them so we can give them away to everyone we know.

I guess this depends a little from company to company.

I've got a written permission from Rick Meints (one of the owners of Moon Design) to share as much as I want in electronic form as long as it is shared solely within my gaming-group.

So as long as I protect the stuff we do, and make sure only approved members have access. I'm good.

/wolf

Bull. Players have a right to know the basics of the game system. Rules are a social contract, a tool for shared storytelling. Not the GM's tool, the group's shared tool.

And, for character generation, screen sharing is the easiest way to do it. Let them see the book on my screen, which they can see remotely.