For many players, trying to play a game without understand the rules just doesn't work. For many groups, the "Only the GM needs the information" mindset is...less desirable than others.

I have to say that TOR is the first example of a game in my group where we have multiple people going over the rules to make sure we understand and are using them correctly. Up to now the "DM only" mentality has worked well enough. To be 100% honest I really haven't seen a technical reason why the loss of PDFs is a show stopper for playing the game electronically or other wise. For the most part it seems, to me, in most cases it is just personal choice to not use/buy a physical book that is hampering things. Sure, it may easier with the PDFs, but the job can be done with a book. It just takes a little more work, and not minding the extra weight.

I was not trying to be provocative by saying only the LM needs the rules.

Obviously the players need to know the basics of the game, but TOR is relatively simple system to run and play.

Referring to the rules often ruins the flow of the game and arguing about the rules wastes time.

I keep a few quick summary cards for combat and the journey rules to hand.

Pretty much everything else boils down 14 or more on the dice and the relevant skill.

I agree. Players actually don't need to have the text of the rules (be in PDF or in paper) to play as I have realized by playing a one-shot demo game at home and two moderately long games through Internet (by means of a play-by-forum Webpage).

With so simple a mechanic as TOR, an emphasis in roleplay, and no need to visit your supplier to buy 50' of hemp rope, ladders, caltrops and so on, you actually need only to explain the d12 + several d6 mechanic, and the rune of Gandalf/eye of Sauron routine to the players to get the game going.

Of course it's simpler to have a PDF copy of the rulebooks, and I'd like very much to take part in a Skype game (it would be most similar to an actual tabletop session), but until the other licensee (the one that got the rights to electronic games based in The Hobbit film) agrees that a pen&paper RPG rulebook IS NOT an electronic game en se and per se we should exercise patience.

I think folks here - who, incidentally, are a self-selecting group of core consumers/fans - have been exceptionally patient. The rest of the consumer roleplaying niche is unaware/unconcerned about the failure of this product line: they'll most likely never know it existed given its utter lack of presence in game stores.

Sad, but true. And that's why, at this point, C7 really needs to push out product, and convince gaming store operators that it is worth their while putting them on the shelf.

I would rather have a little good quality product than a lot of crap rushed out, so I will remain mildly frustrated and patient.

A lot of people seem to think that C7 are being deliberately slow at releasing product.

I'm sure they want to get stuff out, but licensed product takes time, as does quality product, so when combined, progress is slowed.

If you all think it's so easy to write... then do so!

What's that got to do with anything? Are you saying people can't express concern, criticise, etc because they aren't writing/producing RPGs themselves?

Just seems to me that those doing the most whining have no idea what is involved in the writing process!

I don't think anyone involved in this discussion is trying to blame authors for taking too long to write stuff.

We all (I think) believe that delays are due to legal technicalities and being forced to re-write etc. Not to mention just sitting on a shelf somewhere for weeks at the time awaiting review.

I blame lawyers. That's always a safe bet.

/wolf

In most workplaces, a week spent mourning (bawling, gnashing of teeth, howling at first world problems) is generally an acceptable grieving period. Then you are expected to move on with your life.

Well what do you know... it's been a week since Dom pissed in our ears with "No worries. I appreciate that this news is disappointing and frustrating, and I'm really sorry about that. But the line is secure, and there are many years of supplements etc planned.." (wow the nerve of that fellow with his deceitful condescension)

Time to move on.

People are concerned with the loss of PDFs here more than anything else, least that's the case for me. That's directly impacting on many peoples' ability to run the game - it doesn't have anything to do with the writing process. But yeah, there's been a fair amount of cross polination between this and the gencon book cancellation.

Just because new material won't be available to me does not mean I plan to cease running The One Ring. I'll just be restricted to rules and adventures of my own devising, plus those shared here and elsewhere by other fans of the game and the legendarium in general.

Dude, you wound me.

Has everyone agreed that we are getting something a little less than before, that that validly impacts everyone differently, we all still love TOR and the line continues?

Or would that require human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together, and mass hysteria?

I would agree we've seen enough of the latter.

My brother is a lawyer.

He told me there are more lawyer jokes than lawyers.

I told him, 'for good reason.' He threw a hot smore at me, which missed me and hit his wife in the back of the head. All in all, that was a good evening.

So not yet then? Can someone PM me when agreement is reached?

No need to hurry back to the Big Purple. I think this discussion has run its course.


Regards.

... And that's assuming that the PDF issue doesn't get sorted out.

I posted this a couple of pages back:

And I still hope that even with lawyers and the like being involved some common sense outcome can be reached that allows C7 to get back to putting out PDFs for the TOR line. We'll have to wait and see, but fingers crossed and all that...

Did you just say "Lawyer" and "common sense" in the same sentence?

Say it ain't so...

/wolf

I did! I'm using Hope though to make it happen.

Respect!

/wolf

Question for Dom: Could we have a reassurance that, should we buy a The One Ring print product while the PDF embargo is in place, we can claim a PDF of that product by sending you the order reference should PDFs be reinstated for the line?

Do you mind... some of us here ARE lawyers.

And I believe it was Bertrand Russell who said that common sense was the philosophy of the primitive...

Then I'm happy to be primitive.

Having been involved in non-gaming publications as part of a prior job, I'm well aware of the publications issues. Including outside approvals.

I'm also aware that the industry has issues with delivery on time as a whole. But that doesn't make a smaller, less common name company any the more popular.

And I've been involved actively in about 8 commercial playtests for RPG's and a couple for board games, have a couple amateur RPG designs released into the wilds, and a 30+ year history of buying, running, and collecting RPG's. (Part of why I need to thin my collection... )

C7 is in a rather unenviable position - a large number of licensed properties, and at least one of them is actually being written elsewhere... plus that one has a notoriously prickly licensor, unpleasant limitations on the allowed sources, and fans who really don't give a rats arse about the license limits.

C7's experience with licenses, however, makes the mishandling of the TOR one LESS excusable - they should know that you don't solicit something until you have approvals, unless you like embarrassment. (Or you have a no-approvals license - but those are damned near the Holy Grail of the games industry - I only know of two: Amarillo Design Bureau's license from Paramount, and Lou Zocchi's from Franz Joseph.) Why? Because, sooner or later, something gets bounced.

"...makes the mishandling of the TOR one LESS excusable "

Wow! Now they are mishandling the TOR license...will the list of charges never end? I really like how some on this thread are saying "Oh, no one is blaming C7 directly." Well, the above disproves that thesis quite nicely.

As we're in the extremely hectic final fews days before GenCon I have flagged it up for Dom's attention to either give me an answer to pass on, or to answer directly. It's a good question.

Sorry, my powers of precognition are not what they used to be, Beran!

Oh, boy. You just don't see it do you? Every negative post on this thread does indeed blame C7 directly; they either have mismanaged the franchise, screwed up on the legal aspects, bad customer service, etc. etc. ad nauseum. How can anyone say that C7 isn't being blamed directly here. Everytime a complaint is addressed it seems a new on sprouts up. I mean, really! Yes, we get it; you are unhappy, why can't we leave it at that and move on? (not aiming this directly at you Rick H.)

I would also like to point out that I have been on forums where this type of discussion would have been shut down days ago. I am completley amazed at the patience and restraint Dom and the rest of C7 staff have shown here. Hat's off.

Every negative post does not blame C7 directly. So, no, I don't see it (like you do). And if you want people to 'move on', then it may be best to not post in these kinds of threads because by doing so you're further provoking people into continued replies.

Anyway, I'm done with you*, Beran. I've tried engaging with you and some others here (constructively and also with a little humour) but its not going anywhere fast. Take care and all that.

*On this particular discussion, not in general.

this ^^^

Seriously?

Wow. Just... wow.

If you can't work that out and see how its a self-consuming repeating cycle then I really don't know what to say to you.

Gentlemen,

Remember that time that Jon asked two out of three of the current disputants to back off this matter? I know it was in a different thread, but I think that the principle holds here too.

And Rich, you know I agree with most everything you've said here, but I think that you should probably follow Jon's suggestion on this matter as well.

That's decent of you Brooke, yes Jon did - specifically Evening and Beran (as well as yourself). Thanks for pointing that out.

I agree - I was already bowing out (my post to Beran just earlier). Cheers.

C'mon Rich... you've heard it from me before: Just walk away. It's not worth it.

Actually I think there's little left to this thread but finger pointing, blaming and dis-consent.

I would welcome a moderator closing this down right about now.

/wolf

Yeah, I tried to bring it around with a post about the licensing of PDFs and electronic distribution, but to no avail!