Yes, That was my intention when mentioning the Achaemenid/Parthian/Sassanid row for the rhovanic Easterlings. They represent a continuous line, though still with differences. For the sub-creation, it is easier if you take a real-world model that represents a similar development of course.

I chose them for the military and political organization - not religion. The latter should be taken from someone else or made from scratch.

At least that's how I understand Tolkien developed his people: Taking one or more aspects from one historic model, but not everything.

Best
Tolwen

I'm really looking forward to your PDF on demographics in Gondor. Have you been inspired to start the Rhovanion one yet?

So far I am fully occupied with making the one for Eriador. For Gondor a lot of work has already been done as well. Rhovanion ist still only a plan. Even though it is a bit unfortunate, I will do Gondor before Rhovanion, since so much has already been done for it (and it is so much easier due to the available sources )

Best
Tolwen

Halbarad, Tolwen,

You gentleman have given me a great deal to mull over!

Halbarad, I agree with your description of "equates to" for the same reasons. Tolwen, I'm looking forward to your pdf.

BTW, Tolkien went back-and-forth on the issue of Middle-earth as simply representing our prehistoric earth (in an obviously abstract fashion & sans scientific substance) but it's fairly constant in his final manuscripts. Some food for thought:

...Those days, the Third Age of Middle-earth, are now long past, and the shape of all lands has been changed; but the regions in which Hobbits then lived were doubtless the same as those in which they still linger: the North-West of the Old World, east of the Sea...

Red Book of Westmarch 50th Anniversary, Prologue, 2.

...The action of the story takes place in the North-west of 'Middle-earth,' equivalent in latitude to the coastlands of Europe and the north shores of the Mediterranean. But this is not a purely 'Nordic' area in any sense. If Hobbiton and Rivendell are taken (as intended) to be at about the latitude of Oxford, then Minas Tirith, 600 miles south, is at about the latitude of Florence. The Mouths of Anduin and the ancient city of Pelargir are at about the latitude of ancient Troy...

Humphrey Carpenter. The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien. 376.

So, long story short, you guys seem to be on the right track in terms of these demographics & warfare notes.

Slight tangent here. At the tome of the first Wainriders invasion, a few of the Northmen fled into Dale where they 'merged'.
Ok, I have been wondering if there is a potential for a greatly diminished horse culture to exist on the plains to the north of the River Running and east of Dale.
A Horsefolk culture, separate from the standard Barding in the same way that The Lakemen are.
Or, if it is taken at face value that the merger was complete then perhaps a new background for the Bardings implying descent from the Horsefolk culture might be in order. Thoughts anyone?

I don't see any problem with canon if you pursue the theme as you describe - it's actually a pretty clever idea. You can make them similar to the Northmen (Vidugavia, et al) or the Eotheod, though they can't be very numerous because of the primacy of the Bardings following the death of Smaug.

BTW, you can have fun with them leading up to the Easterling invasion during the War of the Ring. Just who is that "...horseman in the night..." that carries the Dark Lord's messages? People have debated that entry ever since - a Nazgûl or the Mouth of Sauron or someone else? You have some intriguing plot possibilities...

Thanks for the kind words Mim.
I suppose the next thing to think about is ethnicity Vs culture in Dale and Esgaroth. As far as I remember, all of these groups are related ethnically as Northmen. It is their cultures that differentiate them.
As I said in my last post, UT states that the Northmen who fled into Dale merged with the Dalemen.
Is it then reasonable to assume that the survivors of Smaug's attack on Dale merged with the Lakemen of Esgaroth and later regained their individual culture under Bard?
Are the Lakemen really a different culture from the Bardings? Their political system would suggest that they might be.
If 'Horsefolk' are introduced to the plains east of Dale and west of the Redwater, would they then be recognisable as a separate culture or would they simply be Bardings with a Horsefolk ancestry?

I like the notion that they might, at first glance, be indistinguishable from regular Bardings. I also like the idea that they have retained Their language and old Gothic styled naming.
I agree that there wouldn't be very many of them, perhaps a couple of thousand at a maximum and that they live in small settlements near the woods south of the Long Lake whilst herding horses on the plains after the manner of their forebears from the East Bight.

Just a note with reference to your question about Lake-men versus Bardings. TOR considers them separate heroic cultures. In fact, Lake-men are being play-tested at the moment (as i understand it). With a possible release within the LMs screen as a booklet on Lake-town.

My thought on your idea of the Northmen fleeing to Dale and merging, a new background sounds most harmonious with the way TOR conceives such things as well as the reality of ethnic inter-mingling.

I personally would enjoy seeing a new background to represent this footnote!

Hmm, now I see where you're headed with this Halbarad.

I agree with your take from UT on the surviving Northmen merging with the Dalemen & that their culture might have continued in some fashion to the east of Esgaroth-the Long Lake & west of the Carnen.

Per Eluadin's reminder about the Lake-town insert in the LM Screen (I can't wait), perhaps you'll want to consider them as the 'Horsefolk' you describe? This way, you morph what Tolkien wrote & what TOR is developing with your additional plotline, & see how far your heroes want to progress with it.

Do you recall when we discussed the old ICE module River Running? We both agree that it doesn't really work for Middle-earth as we interpret things, & certainly not by the time of the War of the Ring, but also both note the possiblity of some of those villages & sites as ruins. Suddenly, a whole new vista opens...

A quick PS on my previous post (confounded clumsy typing ).

When I mention "them," I mean your Horsefolk as a separate culture, in addition to the probable Lake-men in the insert...

IMO - yes and no (considering the differentiation between Bardings and Esgaroth). IIRC Esgaroth first appears in Tolkien's writing in context with the events of The Hobbit (at least a quick sesarch did not produce anything contrary). ICE had this settlement also existing in TA 1640, but I'm not sure whether this was based on Tolkien or just wishful thinking

So, considering the order of events, it might be that Esgaroth was a foundation by exiled people from Dale, making the town a new foundation post-2770. And even if it existed before, the it was probably eclipsed by Dale and later dominated by Dale refugees. This would already eliminate the question whether the people from Dale ("Barding" is a very recent term that only has any meaning after TA 2941) are separate cultures.

During the time of Dale's existence, it was the chief town of the northmen in this area, and Esgaroth is IMO very likely to have been part of that realm, making the question of different political systems or cultures (beyond local specialties) somewhat moot.

IMO absolutely the latter. It has been more than 1000 years since they arrived here, and the region is not that big to house separate cultures of the same ethnic people; especially in the face of the many potential and real threats existing here. The Rohirrim needed much less time to build a new identity, keeping the "Éothéod" only as a name from history.
The general lack of written records among the Northmen may be another strong point why they were quick to adopt to a new identity rather than clinging to age-old identities from a region long lost. That would be more fitting to the Númenóreans

The Northmen of Rhovanion are known to have had a horse-culture since the early Second Age, when they provided cavalry for the Dwarves of Durin's Folk. So the Éothraim/Ehwathrumi might only be those who have developed the highest level of horse-culture, with all the other Northmen sharing at least the same heritage and preferences.

Best
Tolwen

Thanks for your thoughts guys.
Tolwen, I don't have problem with a version of Esgaroth being on the Long Lake in 1640's. The current version on 2946 is built on the ruins of an older and larger settlement. What happened in the meantime, who knows?
Likewise, I concur that it is possible that the current incarnation of Laketown was built by the 2770 refugees and that in that scenario there is nothing to choose between them save their choice of an elected figurehead vs a crowned monarch. It will be very interesting to see what TOR's thinking on this if they present the Lakemen as a fourth playable Heroic Culture of Northman extraction.

On the subject of the Horsefolk. I agree that normally you would expect cultures in close proximity to amalgamate over a period of 1000 years but I would argue that we cannot apply that to Middle Earth with100% certainty. As another poster pointed out earlier(Jefferwin IIRC), there seem to be examples of whole cultures who seem to have been in stagnation since the second age.

In an attempt to rationalise a continuing Horsefolk culture, I am stealing your idea about those clans with the highest level of Horse culture developing in to the Ehwathrumi. The impression that I get of Dale and Esgaroth is of a mercantile power with no cavalry to speak of.
The Horsefolk regard themselves as superior to the indigenous people of Dale despite their diminished state. They regard the Lakemen and Dalefolk as thieving shopkeepers and that they are not true warriors as they fight on foot. This feeling is reciprocated by the the people of Esgaroth and Dale who regard the Horsefolk as boorish drunken louts at best and thieving drunken horse traders at worst.

Their mutual hostility and suspicion is typical of that which exists even today in our world between settled and nomadic/semi nomadic peoples.

If we would have no further evidence, that would be a viable option - and not unlikely for the sometimes stagnant Middle-earth. But since Tolkien clearly says, that these people [m]merged[/b] with the Men of Dale, there is IMO no wriggle room. Here they are part of that culture. Conisering their ancestry, they might (and probably will) be those in the Dale military that provide the - superior - cavalry. In this latitude, it might be possible that the climate naturally limits the size of horse herds and thus nothing like the horse-centered culture on the southern plains is possible (not by choice) here by nature.

The Dwarves were always interested in auxiliaries of those troop types they themselves did not have (e.g. cavalry). Since Erebor was dwarven territory (even if probably only an outpost before TA 1999), dale was probably in contact with them for longer (and probably provided the necessary foodstuffs!). Therefore I see a limited (in size as well as percentage of mannish forces) cavalry arm as quite likely. Especially in areas with sparse population, having units that are quick and rapidly deployable (as well a scouting capability) is essential. Thus it would IMO fit well if these former Ehwathrumi take the role of cavalry in the Dale society. They will give some families or sub-clans in that society a strong horse-tradition streak.

I agree with you, were it not for the clear notion that they merged (see above). IMO this precludes any major sentiments between such groups over an extended period. In the beginning it may have been this way (e.g. the first decades until the original refugees died and the regionally born grew up). Since they were ethnically of the same stock and one group was fleeing form "eastern foreigners", a certain solidarity with them seems not unlikely IMO.

Best
Tolwen

Tolwen, I don't agree that saying that they merged with the men of Dale means a complete integration with a loss of their accompanying culture. Modern Germany is a prime example. Ethnically are all German and the various peoples have merged into one, but are they all the same culturally?
Closer to home for me is Northern Ireland. A quick glance reveals a homogenous mass of basically Celtic stock. Try telling a Northerner of Ulster Scots(Brythonic) extraction that his culture is the same as one of Irish Gaelic stock though.
In reality, both groups are interbred and 'merged' to the extent where they are, to all intents and purposes, the same people. Their own perceptions of this are very different though. They each perceive their own political political agenda and cultural differences over a period of close to 500 years.
So, to say that there is no 'wriggle room' is maybe a touch over simplifying. There can be wriggle room if we decide to make wriggle room.(BTW, I do appreciate that it is only your opinion and all opinions have validity.)


I see what you are saying about Northman cavalry in Dwarf service. Although it doesn't say it, my preference is to envisage the folk of Dale and Esgaroth as go betweens or brokers to the Horsefolk of Southern Rhovanion. The Dwarf King wants to hire some mercenary horsemen for a campaign against the Orcs of Gundabad. So he charters a boat in Laketown to travel along the River Running and bring word of his needs at the regular trading posts.

Halbarad,

Not to get too far off track from your current plotline concerning the Dalelands & such, but you mention the need for the horsemen to support the Dwarves against the Orcs of Gundabad.

I've been working on that area & the probable Orcs squabbling over the spoils following the deaths of Azog & Bolg - intrigues & schemes galore, good stuff .

Basically, I envision up to several rival cabals/tribes (I'm still undecided) having a go at the throne, & the heroes can take advantage of the whole 'divide & conquer' thing. How do you envision your Orcs of Gundabad?

Mim, the bit about the Dwarf King needing horsemen for his campaign wasn't for anything I have planned at the moment. I envisioned that particular scenario as being prior to the first Wainriders invasion. After this, I would imagine it becomes quite difficult for the dwarfs to hire good quality horsemen, at least until the Eotheod relocate to the Upper Anduin Vales. I seem to remember that there may be something about a potential for mistrust and dislike between the Dwarfs and the Eotheod at this time though.
Something to do with Frama and Scatha's treasure horde IIRC.
After 2770 and prior to 2946 it's a non idea as there is no Dwarf King in Erebor.
There are precious few of the Horsefolk left in Rhovanion. I reckon that they Breed, herd and provide horses for the exiled Dalemen of the Celduin valley prior to 2945 and for Kings Bard and Dain following the resettlement. They themselves probably only provide a small core to any cavalry forces as well as scouts/ outriders. The bulk of the modern cavalry are probably Dalefolk who have been forced to develop a lesser horse culture during their exile on the great plain of Rhovanion and are certainly not of the quality that they once were.
I am still not sure whether, in game terms, the Horsefolk should be presented as a seventh background option for Bardings or as a Heroic culture in their own right.
If I choose the latter, I need six backgrounds. I have so far thought of four and I intend to ruthlessly plunder Voidstate's Easterlings for their Saddle Born special ability.
The four backgrounds I am currently working on are Horse Trader, horse Whisperer, outrider and herdsman. I am also considering messenger but need a sixth one.
Any ideas anyone?

Ps Mim, if you look at Tolwen's PDF on populations in Eriador there is some information about Orcs. IIRC, it contains some figures for the population of Gundabad. The topic-brotherhood of the spear contains a link to the Hall of Fire Webzine. That very issue contains background and maps for Gundabad.

Teamster (as in a person who drives a team of draft animals, usually a wagon drawn by oxen, horses, or mules) AKA Muleskinner AKA Wrangler (as in a wrangler of pack animals) ... Stable Master (of course, this may be what you envisioned of with your Horse Trader).

You are right, and I probably did not express myself properly. Germany is a good example (I come from there, so I can talk about it a bit ). You might be a Bavarian, Saxonian or Hesse and will certainly look with a bit of amusement or disbelief on the local customs of the others, their funny (or unintelligible) dialect etc. You may even be fiercely opposed to some of their habits or peculiarities. The point is, that when it comes to matters outside Germany, you are all Germans. And beyond all regional specialties or prejudices, all are governed by a single entity for all.
And that's maybe the part where I was unclear or we understood different things from "culture". I meant that the Northmen inh the Dale region post-TA 1851 are united under a common overlord/king/government (thus the "merged") in a common political entity, even if they retain some local peculiarities compared to the respective 'others'.
Could we agree that the "merged" applies to a common and undisputed government (and military command) for both the old and new "Dale-Folk" and that they can and will retain some different foci in their lifestyle and local habits, accents etc.?

Best
Tolwen

If you do not mind MERP, they had a supplement called Mount Gundabad, which might give you some inspiration. It certainly has its limitations, but it gets some important points quite well.
I once did a fix for their problematic timeline/history. This was not their fault though (or only a little), since much of the pivotal information became available only with the later HoMe volumes; well after MG was publsihed ('89 IIRC). This fix was published within Other Hands and made compatible with Jeff Erwin's short story The Fall of Carn Dûm, that deals with the loss of the dwarven city there and the beginning of the Witch-king's rule. IIRC there were some minor changes to that revised timeline in an online version. If you're interested I can send you that by mail. Just drop me a PM.

The orc figures for Mt. Gundabad in the old 'Eriador' article are not too bad IIRC. One would need to check whether they still compare well to more recent estimates for the Northwest.

Best
Tolwen

Tolwen, it is equally likely that I was not clear in my explanation. I think that we are actually both in agreement.
I still think that there may be a case to look at with Esgaroth/Laketown being a Free Trading City, a bit like one of the towns of the Hanseatic League though.
On the other hand, and purely from a gaming perpective rather than a scholarly interpretation, I like the idea that the vast majority of the Dalefolk have fled into the Vales of the Redwater and the River Running. Away from the benevolence of the Dwarves and the deceased King Girion, the Lords of his court are in conflict as to who should rule. This leads to fragmentation and the founding of almost a score of settlements in these regions.
Those who remain in the area of the Long Lake are the largest single group and consist of those who refuse to follow mere warriors(as mentioned in The Hobbit).
I have deliberately named Girion as a King. Those survivors who remain after the death of Smaug and the Battle are quick to name Bard as their King. This would suggest to me that Kings were not foreign to them and that as Bard was Girion's descendant-he s likely to also have been a King.

OK, that's fine to hear

A good point, and one I was thinking about already. If we look at the placement of Esgaroth, it is quite striking, that it only has one real asset compared to Dale for example: Lying at the influence of the Forest River into the Long Lake. Here they are the natural turnover point for all wares going upriver (to the Elves) or downriver (coming from the Elves).

For all other purposes, Esgaroth has no advantage over Dale which lies not that far northward to justify a separate trading post. It would be equally easy to move the goods (by ship; quite easy) not only to Esgaroth, bit to Dale also (which has a river access as well!). Esgaroth may provide some capacity for re-packaging from smaller to bigger boats (and vice versa), but I don't think that would be a major point.

So it comes to question when the trade with the Elves started. We have no evidence, but the following theory might be worth considering:
Until TA 2770 Dale traded primarily with and for the Dwarves. Since Elves (and especially Sindar) do not get well along with Dwarves (and Thranduil in particular, according to UT), the Elves did not have any contacts with those Men that were obviously "dwarf-friends". Only when the Dwarves were evicted by Smaug were the Elves willing to deal with them. Thus the refugees (or part of them) built Esgaroth at this strategic for elven trade.

Best
Tolwen

Ok, that's pretty neat thinking. I could quite easily accept that theory but you still need to think about the fact that Laketown 2770 is built upon the remains of an earlier 'Laketown'. Someone else might previously have had the idea of cornering the Market in trade between the Elves and Dorwinion. Another group of Northmen?

That's a good point with the earlier town. Since it's explicitly stated that Esgaroth was even more wealthy when Dale was still standing, my theory with the foundation date is a bit weak of course. But beyond the question when it was build, it might be even more interesting when and why the older town was destroyed. It could have been Smaug of course (he's the cause of all trouble ... *lol*), but that might be the easy way out of it Another solution might be to connect the destruction with the mentioned wars, but the question remains which enemy came so far and destructive into the heartland of Dale?

One might still salvage part of my idea when the elven trade only started when the dwarven ceased. That would still work and make Esgaroth the trading hub of dwarven and mannish commerce in this corner of Rhovanion. Then the role as the transition point for the turnover of goods might be more emphasized as well.

Best
Tolwen

Although the Smaug scenario seems slightly cliched, it is probably the most realistic one. Given our previous discussions on the nature of military capability of the Wainriders and the Balchoth, I believe it unlikely that they could have penetrated so far into the Dalish heartland as to threaten, much less destroy, Esgaroth.
I think that the River Running would not be any more than a minor obstacle to a foe determined to cross it (thinking of the Rhine and Danube frontiers here) but if either was set on the conquest of Dale then it would have prompted the direct intervention of Thranduil and Erebor.
I don't remember any references to a defence of Dale against either foe by either Dwarfs or Elves in the appendices.
I believe that Dale was simply ignored by both sets of invaders. Their target had been set by their Dark Master, Sauron. Gondor was the prize and neither was allowed to be deflected to conquer such a trifling Kingdom as Dale. The Rhovanic Horsefolk were different because they were tied inextricably to Gondor as their main allies and unfortunate enough to live directly in the path of the oncoming hordes. I imagine that Sauron did not want to stir the Dwarfs and Elves to march to war on his northern flank. Thus Dale survived and became a haven for the Horsefolk refugees.

Thinking about the earlier Laketown. It is a very unusual settlement. It appears to be somewhat like a Celtic style Crannog, only on a much grander scale. Are their any records of Gwaithuirim people's in this region?
Historically, did the Germanic or Slavic peoples of Europes northern coastline from Frisia to the Baltic have any similar style of settlement or fortification? Do you have any insight on this, Tolwen?. Anyone else?

Throrsgold, thanks man. A couple of good ones in there. I think that teamster and muleskinner might work very well. You are right, Horse trader is a bit like a stable master.
I am thinking that I may make Horse Whisperer a Wisdom based cultural reward.

Hhmm. The idea of a brief Balchoth attack seems not that unreasonable to me. They were able to almost defeat Gondor (in fact, they were able of defeating Gondor - were it not for Eorl's intervention). For all the nice places and heroic stories surrounding the northern lands, militarily and demographically (which are linked) they are most likely not nearly playing in the same league as Gondor. The North (east of Mirkwood) is probably much more sparsely populated, leading to definitely lesser numbers of warriors available. Here an invasion of a fraction of the army that invaded Gondor would be seen as a powerful army, rarely seen in the North.
Therefore I can imagine that they waged a secondary campaign into the North, probably to prevent any help coming form here (aware that the Northmen were ancient friends of Gondor). This could then have led to the destruction of Esgaroth. Alternatively, such a minor invasion (from a Gondorian POV; from a Dale one it would be quite a major of course) could be linked to the continued Balchoth problems until TA 2545 when they were finally defeated by Eorl and abandoned any ideas of invasion into the West. As a third alternative, the Esgaroth invasion could be linked to the phase after the defeat in the West, when the Balchoth were looking for easier prey (and being defeated again; probably due to their now much reduced manpower).

At this time, there were no Dwarves at Erebor (at least no numbers worth mentioning), and the Dwarves were fully occupied with defending their Grey Mountain settlements against dragons, so they could hardly send troops to the aid of the Dale-Folk. And I cannot imagine the Elves going to war in petty mannish wars (objectively, it would be nothing more than that to them).

This Argument from ignorance is a tricky one. Arguing with the absence of something as evidence (or at least argument) of its non-existence is very thin ice. It can work if one has supporting evidence, but alone it is very treacherous (Wikiepedia has a good article on this: argumentum ad ignorantiam).
We have to take into account that the North was only a sideshow for the chroniclers of the Elves and Númenóreans. Things got recorded when it was touching their interests, but not the "normal" going of history and politics.

Since Esgaroth is described as being quite wealthy, this could have been a valuable target. If not for occupation, then at least for plunder.

But interestingly they (in their Ehwathrumi years) were a fickle lot as well. The unreliability of many of their lords (warring among themselves or even allying with the Easterlings) was a major reason for Gondor's great campaign in the 13th century. It seems only a part of them were more or less reliable allies.

There is evidence for prehistoric settlements in this style on lake shores in the Baltic (Lithuania and Latvia) as well as in Germany/Switzerland on Lake Constance (here neolithic and Bronze Age era). I'd have to dig up more information though if that is needed.

Best
Tolwen

Tolwen,

Thank you for the steer toward the MERP module Mount Gundabad - good call. I do have the module & actually gleaned some of my initial scenario about the Orc interregnum (as it were, in a purely illicit fashion) from that book. I've played around with a number of other ideas for the area, & am just curious what you all have done, though I understand you're focused currently on the Dalelands.

Speaking of which, Halbarad, you make a great call on the Crannog analogy with Esgaroth, though on a larger scale & more advanced development for Lake-town of course .

Incidentally, you've created some solid backgrounds for your Horsefolk, & it sounds as if you're leaning toward making them a separate culture. They supplement the Northmen, Lake-men (depending on what timeline you decide upon), & Dalemen quite nicely.

Tolwen mentions Lake Constance & the early Swiss pile-dwellings - correct! Tolkien once referred to the concept from a trip he made at the age of nineteen to Switzerland. I can't recall the reference off hand, but I distinctly remember reading that he saw an archeological sketch of one of these villages & it gave him the idea.

While we're on the subject, he also mentioned in one of his letters (pp. 391-93 of The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien) about a storm they encountered, & despite the summer weather it proved of such ferocity that he adapted the inspiration for the storm that the Thorin Oakenshield party encountered while crossing Cirith Forn en Andrath. We all know what resulted from that 'chance' Travel Hazard

Yes Mim, I am going to present them as a separate 'Heroic Culture'( eventually). I am trying to come up with cultural virtues and rewards at the moment. So far, I have only come up with one for each. A virtue-Horse Whisperer and a Reward-Horsehair Plume.
Any ideas that you guys come up with will be ruthlessly plundered and shamelessly plagiarised.

Also, those Swiss pile dwellings you refer to, might they be from the Halstatt Celtic period?

Tolwen,
Erebor was founded in 1999TA by Thrain I and the Dwarfs who had fled from Moria. In 2510, Thorin I leads the bulk of them into the Grey Mountains. It is, however, 2570 before they are afflicted by the Dragons.
You would be quite correct in saying that there would be few, if any, Dwarfs in Erebor at the time of Wainriders invasion but by the time of the Balchoth, they are well established there.
In the face of a substantial assault on their mannish allies, it would not take too long to muster further support from the Holds in the Grey Mountains.
On the subject of Elves becoming involved in what might be seen as a mere mannish dispute. I'm torn on this one. I can certainly see why you would suggest this but I would refer you to Cirion & Eorl. Do Celeborn and Galadriel not intervene, if indirectly, at one point on the ride of Eorl?
I can imagine if Thranduil was faced with his neighbours changing from Northmen to Easterlings that he might well be inclined to get involved.
However, it turns out that the Dwarves abandon the Grey Mountains in 2590 and return to Erebor and the following happens......

'Thus the Northmen who lived between Celduin(River Running) and Carnen(Redwater) became strong and drove back all enemies from the East; and the Dwarves lived in plenty, and there was feasting and song in the Halls of Erebor'


So, it looks like the Dalelands were subjected to attack from Easterlings during this period. Was the Prof being literal when he wrote 'from the east'. I would normally say yes, but in this case I think it reasonable to assume he was talking about the Balchoth.
So perhaps the Balchoth did sack Esgaroth after all but it certainly upset the Dwarfs who helped the Northmen to drive them out.

Yes, it was from the Halstatt Celtic period. Whoa, I'm impressed .

BTW, your points concerning the Balchoth seem cogent - Celeborn & Galadriel did send the mist that the Riders used to bypass Dol Guldur. I've always liked the description of the battle between the Elves & Sauron & how the mist drove the darkness back temporarily - the next stop was Celebrant!

If you interpret the passages you cite, then it stands to reason that Easterlings did threaten (attack, enslave?) at least some of the Northmen between Celduin & Carnen, & thus the return of the Dwarves from the Dragon Wars (a Decipher invention, but one that I like) & the Ered Mithrin/Withered Heath, then it fits your scenarion nicely as well.

Skywalker raises the point (a valid one I fear) that we may incur delays in the release of the future sets, & so we have to wait for their interpretation of the Rohirrim. This leaves you between a rock & a hard place concerning your Horsefolk, but you're off to a great start with your current Horse Whisperer & Horsehair Plume entries.

One possibility in the interim is to convert some of the existing infantry-type entries to cav, such as the Bardings. Two backgrounds immediately come to mind: 4 - Healing Hands (you'll need some type of healing) & 6 - Patient Hunter (for the obvious reasons). You can always name them something else & fiddle with the specifics, but for the latter, they'd have some type of scouts, especially to cover the wide expanses of their realm.

A final point - none of you have discussed something that's always bugged me, in that Tolkien proved silent on the fate of the Lake-men during the War of the Ring. The Easterlings apparently had a large enough host to reach & sack (I presume) Dale following the three day battle & then to besiege Erebor, yet we have no mention of the Lake-men. They probably could not have defended themselves successfully against such a host & I see Esgaroth put to the torch, though I'm speculating. What do you guys think about their fate?

Hi Mim, that particular region seems to be wellspring from which Celtic culture sprang. It is interesting that you mention the Prof having travelled to Switzerland and that his encounter there influenced his vision of Laketown. It brings me back to an earlier, unanswered question. Are there any indications in any of the writings of a Gwaithuirim related people living in Rhovanion?
I have a notion in my head that the Gwaithuirim/Dunnish relate to later Celts, specifically the Wealhas(Welsh) of post Roman/pre Norman Britain( No lime spiked hair or blue face paint, that belongs to an earlier period). Forgoil as an insult is probably a bit like the term Sassenach.

On the subject of Skywalker, I am completely baffled. Has he posted something somewhere that I have missed? Are Cubicle 7 asking us to reign in our creativity as it may affect production and release dates? Have I completely misinterpreted your previous post?

Re Laketown in 3019. For some reason, I seem to have it in my head that it was rebuilt on the shore following it's destruction by Smaug. May be imagining that though. I reckon that it was probably abandoned in the face of the invasion and the population fled to Dale/Erebor. I reckon that it was probably destroyed and then rebuilt for a fourth time at the start of the fourth age.

Ps all the stuff above about the Dwarfs, Grey Mountains, Dragons etc. was all lifted straight from the appendices of ROTK. As with MERP, I am trying to avoid using Decipher stuff on the TOR boards. Mind you, the Moria box set by Decipher is really good fun and pretty well thought out. easier to use than the old MERP one.

Halbarad,

I've often wondered about the Gwaithuirim as well, however, I cannot recall any additional writings/references. I also consider them to be more of the latter period, especially in that the good prof specialized accordingly. Other game interpretations place them earlier, but I opt for the post-Romans. I've even toyed with Pictish references (more out of a historian's enjoyment than any Tolkien data, alas).

You raise an insightful point: "Forgoil as an insult is probably a bit like the term Sassenach." I need to remember this one.

Skywalker responded to a poster to help the man out in reference to future releases, but he did not elaborate from any official info. (I probably should have explained ). Here is his post:

"Errantries of the King will cover Eriador and is due for release in August 2012.

War of the Ring will cover the lands to the South (Rohan, Gondor, Mordor) and and is due for release in August 2013.

On saying that, I would expect that these two core releases may well end up being longer that one year apart as originally planned."

As you can see, he's only trying to help the chap out, & I suspect he's just speculating about the delays because of the time crunch that C7 incurred in releasing this core set. I can't help but think that he's right .

Yes, the Lake-men did rebuild Lake-town following the death of Smaug, shifting the position a bit in the process. I'd love to find something in Tolkien's writings concerning the town's fate during the war, but I've yet to have any success. I'll dig around a bit for you.

BTW, you raise a great point about the other games. I feel suitably convicted & will attempt to curb my enthusiasm & respect C7 by not referring to other companies/products if possible. They all have their strengths & weaknesses, but I really feel that C7 has hit it with this game - the first IMHO to capture Middle-earth. This is probably why I'm so stoked .

Mim, please don't feel that you have been convicted my friend. My own personal preference is to use canon only when on this board, at least until I see where TOR's Rhovanion finishes up, but that doesn't mean that I wouldn't use stuff from other games and other sources or that I would diss anyone else for having a different approach.
It also seems that I must have misinterpreted what you saying about Skywalker's post. Pheww.....

Picts are good as a basis for the Dunnish as well. There was still a pictish Kingdom in northern Scotland until the 11th century. Sassenach, of course, means Englishman, or more precisely Saxonman and is only an insult if delivered with the appropriate venom.
There's a bit of a feel of Lowland and Borders Scotland about the region of the Westmarch where the Dunnish and Rohirrim are intermarried to a degree.

Phew indeed . Well, I'm glad that's straightened out! We all pick & choose what works for us, & let's hope that C7 can continue to produce these high quality products, despite the departure of Angus.

It sounds as if you want to integrate the foreunners of Dalriada or the like, which could be very intriguing.

Speaking of this subject & since you like that area (you've probably already thought of this), I've also always enjoyed the tale of Helm Hammerhand & the Long Winter. Note that the story ends with the deaths of the principals, & yet there is always the possiblity that some of the invaders escaped. This is a great entry from Appendix A:

...Soon after the winter broke. Then Fréaláf, son of Hild, Helm’s sister, came down out of Dunharrow, to which many had fled; and with a small company of desperate men he surprised Wulf in Meduseld and slew him, and regained Edoras. There were great floods after the snows, and the vale of Entwash became a vast fen. The Eastern invaders perished or withdrew...

In addition, note this entry from UT:

...A marginal jotting states that after the Battles of the Fords of Isen it was found that many Drúedain did indeed survive in the Drúwaith Iaur, for they came forth from the caves where they dwelt to attack remnants of Saruman’s forces that had been driven away southwards... Unfinished Tales of Númemor and Middle-earth, The Drúedain, p. 387.

My ongoing chronicle of many years is a bit out of C7's chronology & up to the end of the War of the Ring, so please bear with me . What I am writing is to presuppose that some of the Ruffians driven from these battles & Isengard do not all head into the Shire & the Bree-land, but instead flee southward.

Thus, a couple of disreputable chaps named Yvian & his son Lorgan reign as cruel & feared warlords of, ahem, mixed blood. They are big, capable men, & well-known for their weapons skills, boasting a warband of these fearsome renegades. In addition, they rule (as it were) from a near impregnable stronghold perched high over the source of the River Adorn. You see where I'm going with this - a hero's work is never done...

PS

I probably should add that Yvian & Lorgan are distantly descended from Freca & Wulf, though I hope it's obvious where I'm heading with the whole shebang.

Erkenbrand would love to clean things up a bit in the Westfold & beyond, but he has so many other things to do following the war. Now, if only some erstwhile heroes were available .

Is the entry for TA 2510 in the Appendices? I couldn't find it. In Appendix A it is stated:

Thorin I lived from 2035-2289 and was king from 2190 to 2289. I deem it reasonable to set the re- to the Grey Mountains of the majority of Durin's Folk at ca. TA 2200

In the HoMe12 we learn that the eastern dales of the Misties, the Grey Mountains, Iron Hills and Erebor(!) are regarded as Dwarf-territory from the early Second Age onward (at least). Therefore it is IMO highly likely that Durin's tribe had at least a small presence at Erebor (perhaps only temporarily though), even long before TA 1999. At least they would know where a suitable place was after their eviction from Khazad-dûm.

I am not so sure about this. At this time, the king still possessed his Ring of Power and we know that it emphasize the Dwarves' darker sides as said in the Silmarillion:

In this context, the Dwarves at this time were much more self-centered than in 'The Hobbit' or 'The Lord of the Rings'. The subtle malign influence gives them a very strong tendency to first look to their own material profit before anything else. In the context above, I guess they would only send a host from the Grey Mountains (which is a long way!), if their own material interests are jeopardized. If not, where is the reason to die for men and no profit - especially when you could mine in the rich mountains at the same time? The Easterlings might be even better trade partners!
This is only to illustrate that even the Dwarves have their not-so-nice days and are not always as noble or "heroic" as in the Hobbit and LotR!

The Elves have a long tradition of not getting involved in mundane mannish affairs. Any war of man against man is such a mundane and for Elves, fleeting, affair. Why die for a thing that after a yén has already almost been forgotten again - and any gain already lost again? The instances where the Elves do get involved in mannish wars is when the Númenóreans are attacked by an obvious evil (unnatural) creature. This happens in Eriador when the Elves help Arthedain against Angmar (but not in the internal wars with Rhudaur and Cardolan!); or if the existence of the Númenóreans is at stake. To Galadriel it was clear that if Gondor would fall, then the West would lie open to any invader. Eriador (and the elven havens there!) would be almost defenseless as well as the last hope gone to defeat Sauron (whom she probably suspected to be back) in the future. Without Gondor as a bulwark against the growing evil and people from the East, the war would already be lost in the 26th century.
In the North the situation is very different. The stakes are not nearly as high, for all the valour of the people there. I can not imagine Thranduil risking the lives of his people for what only looks as a war between men - without any "evil" leader or overlord. And realistically it is only a war of man against man.

The only involvement I could imagine is a bit of intelligence, where the Elves give some information about the Balchoth (such as they have). They would not get involved in actual fighting for sure IMHO.

That fits perfectly to my third scenario. In TA 2545 the Balchoth attempts on Calenardhon are defeated finally. They retreat and have to re-organize after serious losses. A new generation of warriors needs to replace the old losses. In addition, there might be internal troubles (caused by the lost war in the West). After one party won the power struggles, he assembles his forces (much smaller than on Parth Celebrant of course) and seeks booty and land in the North.
These (at first successful) invasions happens between ca. TA 2570 and 2585, with the Northmen at first successful in defence, but over the years being gradually pushed back, resulting (amongst others) in the destruction of the original Laketown.
Thus the Dwarves can not help, even if they would like to, since they are fully occupied with dragons who are after their treasures - which is much more serious business than any attacks on providers of food...
Only when they are defeated themselves and return to Erebor, the war there becomes their personal affair as well, since it is fought on their doorstep (with the Balchoth already at the Long Lake area). Thus they ally themselves with the Dale-Men and drive away the invaders (and again the Balchoth get the short end of the stick... *lol*).

Best
Tolwen

No. And I don't think that this was something the Professor had in mind as well. In Other Hands, there was once a long article dealing with this folk and all the scattered evidence we have.

In short, Rhovanion and the northern part of Eriador seem to have been traditionally territory settled by "Hadorians" and "Bëorians", while (later) Gondor and southern and mid-Eriador was "haladic" land. I am using the terms of the beleriandic Houses of the Edain as a surrogate for their eastern cousins, but you know what I mean I hope. The territory around Erebor and Long Lake is almost as far from "haladic" settled territory as Corsairs in Umbar from Forochel Bay

Best
Tolwen

Sorry, a mis-key on my part. it's in Appendix B and it was 2210, not 2510.

I fully agree that the Dwarfs should not be portrayed a perennial good guys and have never suggested it, but the fact is that the Dwarf King also had his ring in his possession when the bulk of the Dwarfs returned to Erebor in 2590.
Now, of course, if we plot the history so that the Balchoth attack Esgaroth between 2575-85, we create a window of opportunity to support your theory. It is well thought out, but it does not disprove mine.
Any attack upon Esgaroth or Dale, prior to 2570(which is just as likely IMO) could easily have been met with and been driven off by the combined forces of men and Dwarfs. The Grey Mountains to Erebor is no great distance at all(in Tolkien terms anyway ).
Perhaps the fact that there still appear to be Easterlings in the Dalelands in 2590 suggests that the Dragon problem prevented further military aid to Dale/Erebor and a stalemate occurred.
It is also quite possible, but less likely that Esgaroth may have been destroyed during it's recapture from the Balchoth by the combined armies of Dale and Erebor around 2590. As we don't actually know, each option is perfectly valid.
The puzzle is, why was it not rebuilt for nearly 200 years?
Another thing that I am not getting is why you think that Thranduil would not aid the Northmen. He marches to their aid in 2941 when there is no threat to his people and 'accidentally' embroils himself and his host in the Battle of the Five Armies.

Of course. But now the war is on his doorstep and it threatens his very own material interests (namely the supply of food and goods). Thus he would have a strong egoistic reason to participate. And he might be worried about victorious Easterlings desiring the riches of Erebor...

Of course not. The chronicles written by the Professor have so many blank areas for the North (much more blank than not IMO), there is a lot of room for interpretations within the rough framework

I still can not see a real incentive for the dwarven king to send a substantial host there. Just for friendship with those men? If he would have evidence that they were after the treasures still stored in Erebor (though the major ones were surely moved to the Grey Mountains when Thorin I re-located there), that might be an idea. The scenario with the Dwarves in Erebor again post-2590 feels a bit more "elegant" to me (personally) though
IMO, for an attack at this time, the local garrison at Erebor helping the Dalemen is more justified (see below).

The - supposedly - small dwarven garrison at Erebor before TA 2590 might participate in earlier battles (e.g. if a campaign is set before tA 2590), giving such power that the stalemate was achieved. It would then only after the arrival of the main dwarvish forces that tipped the balance and threw the Easterlings out

Do we know when the version we see in 'The Hobbit' was built? It could well have been almost 400 years old by that time. Or have I overlooked something?

IMO the pivotal point is a big hoard of dragon-treasure without the dragon to guard it
It might look a bit egoistic (and surely it was to some degree), but that is an incentive. The stated goal of assisting the Lake-men looks so much nicer than saying "I'm interest in the gold up there...". I do not doubt that help for the men plays a role as well, but surely not the only one (perhaps not even the major one). In addition, he might be interested to prevent that treasure falling into dwarven hands again - especially as a bunch of stubborn dwarves just escaped him. And a killed dragon in context with this could very well mean that these strange Dwarves have something to explain here...

Dividing the treasure between Lake-men and Elves is better than having more parties (especially Dwarves) involved...
That it all developed to the better is another thing of course

Best
Tolwen

Blimey Tolwen, that was quick....

The two hundred years is based on our earlier thoughts that it might well have been rebuilt by the refugees fleeing Dale in 2770.

I get what you are saying about the treasure hoard but was the Prof not pretty specific that Thranduil was en route to Esgaroth before he discovered the Dragon's demise? (I must check when I get home tonight.)