Yep. Still sitting at the screen

It seems that Thranduil had received news by many animal messengers what had happened in Lake-town. Bard sent for help, but the elven host was already on the move. It seems Thranduil decided that the early bird catches the worm's treasure
The news of the dragon's fall spread extremely quickly and those who reacted first were more likely to get their share

Concerning the ruins of Lake-town:
The version with its building in TA 2770 was intended in a history where I had not thought of these earlier possibilities. In light of the events of the late 2590s, there might be no need for a building in TA 2770, as this time serves the purpose very well.
The only point is that it speaks of a time of plenty after TA 2590, and the 'Hobbit' Lake-town is a mere shadow of that. So IMO we need a new destruction (by Smaug?) and a re-building shortly after that (e.g., TA 2775 or so).
If we don't want to use the cliché Smaug again, the descendants of the Balchoth could have remembered the wealth and defeat in 2590 (or so). A deep raid for plunder aimed for Esgaroth could have wrought the destruction. It might even be linked with Smaug - without his direct involvement: He came to Erebor, as he heard of the treasures there. Now, he might not be the only one to have heard of treasure, and the post-Balchoth may have thought that they might not be capable of defeating a dwarven fortress, but surely a rich mercantile center of men.
If we place this a year or two before Smaug arrives, we have the same overall theme (the far and wide spreading word of the riches there), but do not need to overuse the dragon

Best
Tolwen

Ok, so now we are talking about having Laketown destroyed twice, is that right?

It might be better to have it come away unscathed from 'The Balchoth' wars of the 26th century. The descendants of the Balchoth hear of it's wealth and decide to sack it circa 2768 TA. Laden down with loot they feel the full force of the vengeance of King Girion and his Dwarf allies in a short but bloody fight on the shore of the Long Lake. Girion sees an opportunity for Dale to eclipse Laketown as a trading hub and refuses help in rebuilding it. The Lakemen find unexpected help in the form of the raft elves who commence trading between the Lakefolk and the Woodland realm.
The shattered remnant of the Balchoth retreat into southern Rhovanion where they cause no further trouble until the War of the Ring.

Yes, but it need not. Thinking it over, two destructions might be a bit too much, that's right.

That sounds like a good outline. I'm still thinking whether it might be good to put that even a few years earlier.

Speaking of Dale and Esgaroth, I always wondered about their roles. IMO they are distinct enough to avoid too much competition. Dale only has a real advantage when there are a substantial numbers of Dwarves in Erebor. If not, it lies on the fringe of the lands, at the beginning of the even more sparsely settled northern lands. If there are Dwarves however, it commands the strategic position in any dealings with them. All trade and relations goes through their hands, which gives them a monopolistic position on a number of lucrative and influential points. Concerning international and/or long-distance trade, its position is not that advantageous.

For Esgaroth, it's the other way round: It has a good position at a trade crossroads (similar to Bree), giving it - by way of its - a big advantage, and something which Dale cannot really substitute. It is however, dependent on dDe for dwarven relations, being in the hinterland from this point of view.
There is another point I am wondering about. It is said that at the southern end of the Long Lake there are falls (e.g. not navigable by boats), so that all traffic has to be unloaded there before going up- or downstream (e.g. to Lake-town from the lower Celduin). This is of course an unavoidable chokepoint for all trade, and IMO it would be far more prudent to build a settlement there. An easy way out would be to have unsuitabble terrain there, but that seems a bit like the easy way out (e.g. having no other solution). At least it would not need any too far-fetched rationalizations.
But if the terrain was good enough to have a (big) trail there for all the carts, I cannot imagine that it would have been unsuitable for a building (e.g. similar to Lake-town, but at this site).

Best
Tolwen

I don't think that it should be too much earlier, especially if we decide to cast Girion in an almost villainous role. I would suggest no earlier than 2750, purely because I envisage that Girion himself, comes to Laketown's aid with his Dwarf allies. He arrives too late and finds that the Balchoth have destroyed the town and enslaved or driven off the survivors. The people of Laketown are first elated and then angered when, after crushing the Easterlings, he proceeds to claim their wealth for his own and refuses to aid them to rebuild their homes.
Perhaps the Dwarfs are behind this decision( the malign influence of the Ring playing upon their natural avarice).
It is perhaps at this point that the Lakemen decide that they will start electing their Master and will not follow any 'mere warrior'. Bard's gift to the Master at he end of the Hobbit could then be seen as a conciliatory gesture. Not totally sure about this though, what do you think?

The Marsh Bell adventure in the TOR book has a cluster of Lakeman dwellings at the top of the falls. The inhabitants help with the portage of carts and boats down Girion's stair,which IIRC is what they have named the falls.
MERP, of course, had Londaroth at the base of the falls.It seems almost to have been like a piece of Victoriana, a Yorkshire mill town from the Industrial Revolution transported to Rhovanion. I think it used the power of the waterfall to power it's mills, although my memory is unclear.

I like the outline of events. I'm just thinking whether an earlier date might be preferable. I have no definitive answer yet, so that may take a bit time. In any case, we do not necessarily need the person of Girion, since his father could have been in the leading role then. Having Girion here has the advanatge to use a named character - and in a more "shady" way, rather than the "shining hero" image that is invoked about him when Tolkien talks of him confronting - and being killed by - Smaug.

I particularly like the actions proposed of the Dalefolk, taking advantage of the situation. All this might be the cause (or the continuation) of a rivalry (and sometimes feud) between Esgaroth and Dale that is only put to rest by Bard much later.
I would even go as far to let Girion (if it is supposed to happen in his time) and the Dwarf-king to act in concert when deciding on keeping much booty and not rebuilding Esgaroth. Some kind of mutual agreement that they both profit from such a solution (and both not hearing to the pleas of Esgaroth's people). Girion as part of said rivalry and a conscious decision to break any political influence Esgaroth might command among the Northmen in the area and make Dale the undisputed political center of the Northmen in the area.
And the Dwarf king is looking for his profit. He might aid the Northmen (since it is in his interest and he might have some sympathies), but regardless of that, he demands a price (and not at a bargain!). Business is still business

True, but what is the reason for building the main trading centre so far from the chokepoint? The Forest Road cannot be the reason, since it ends far to the South anyway. The only natural advantage is the Forest River with the Elves at the other end.
The majority of the trade is likely to have been made by the Celduin. Using watercourses is so much more economical that land routes are only an alternative if there is no waterway available.
This is still puzzling...

But there I have another idea that might be a solution. The Lake-men could be on good terms (relatively speaking) with the Elves even at this time (and explaining the placement of Esgaroth; despite the unfortunate position regarding the falls). This would, of course, not be greeted with much enthusiasm by the Dwarves of Erebor. Thus both the Dalemen and the Dwarves would have (beside material) a reason for being not nice: Dale eliminates his political rival, and the Dwarves get rid of "Elf-friends" (and elven influence - regardless of real or only imagined) in the vicinity
In addition, it might explain the locality of Esgaroth - the Lakemen were keen to monopolise the elven trade the same way Dale is doing with the Dwarves.

A dirty little idea: Expanding the cool relations of Dwarves and Elves on their respective primary mannish partners. Or is this too far-fetched and interpreting too much scheming into the "upright" Northmen?

Best
Tolwen

I could 'almost' imagine Thranduil considering that he is above such petty concerns but the Dwarfs(especially with the Ring) manipulating their mannish allies to their own gain and to the loss of the Elves sounds both feasible and plausible.
I would concur withbthe reasoning that the relationship between Esgaroth and the raft elves must have earlier origins or else why would the settlement be so far north on the lake?
Is it possible that the farther south the Long Lake goes, the shallower it gets until it is little more than a big shallow puddle at the south end. Only problem is that the falls might not be particularly inspiring in this circumstance. The only possible evidence of this is that it was possible to see the bones of Smaug.
I wouldn't worry too much about there being the odd 'bad penny' amongst the Northmen either. I am going to use the Rohirrim as a case to prove this point. Grima Wormtongue whispers corruption in the King' s ear and no one in the Riddermark is allowed to take action against The servants of the White Hand. Almost everyone just falls onto line with this decree? It would appear that they follow the orders of their Kings almost without exception, even when it is clearly the wrong order.

I agree that he would probably not actively step into such scheming or intrigue, but OTOH he would not be overly sad if he sees that the Dwarves and their allies are outdone by their own partners ;I)
So I wqould see him more as an observer in these politics, who is pleased when the Dwarves are outdone in a deal/area of influence.

Weren't Smaug's bones lying in destroyed Esgaroth? IIRC it is said, that his bones could be seen in calm weather. If the water is clear, this could be several meters; especially with the sparkling jewels around.

I greatly enjoy that I am not the only one seeing the good guys with their more shadier sides: The Rohirrim as racists vs. the Dinlendings and doing ethnic cleansing(!!) in Westmarch, the Gondorian kings becoming suspicious of their kin and persecuting anyone who seems to be not loyal, the Númenóreans in the Second Age mercilessly and unprovoked destroying the woods of the Gwathuirim (not caring about the latter's fate), The Noldor and the kinslayings, the Noldor (again) falling into Sauron's ring-trap, the racial imperialism of the later Númenóreans (OK, not the Faithful) all show IMO that these people are for the most part good and being "in the right", but also displaying very human traits of envy, brutality, suspicion and greed.
It's so much more interesting and believable than only having do-gooders on their side; all shining and morally upright heroes... ("Young-Sigurds" as we say sometimes in Germany).

Best
Tolwen

There are so many examples of casual racism scattered throughout the cannon. The entire reason for the Kinstrife is basically a racist premise.
I like the idea of individuals being a bit villainous but hope to avoid stigmatising all Northmen, especially the Rohirrim.

Interesting; I just checked with Appendix A and UT, and there are some passages that shed a not so beneficial light on the Rohirrim when dealing with the Dunlendings. It is spoken of driving them out of the land (of course it was "occupied" by the Dunlendings in the chronicle...). In the end, it is a question which aspect is defined as important. De iure the Rohirrim were right, since the land (Westmarch and Calenardhon in general)) had been given to them by the rightful owners (the Númenóreans). For the Dunlendings, they had long settled in this land for more than 400 years before the Rohirrim came - and neither molested or contested by Gondor (even if at least symbolic) and de facto had - some - rights to this land as well, especially since Gondor never had tried to make them leave (i.e., silently acknowledging their right to settle there). And in all a sudden, they are forcefully evicted from there, since new "owners" have come.
In the LotR is also a bit differentiated: Éomer likens the Dunlendings' words to utterings of beasts and birds; e.g. setting it (and their speakers) at an inferior level (not sub-human, but surely inferior and of lesser "value"). Gamling on the other hand, being native to western Rohan, is more sympathetic, acknowledging it as an ancient speech, spoken in much of now-Rohan in past times.

I am certainly not trying to re-interpret all this into an overall racist campaign, and justify all the Dunlendings' actions. What I only want to show is, that the theme is much more complex as it seems at first glance and the Rohirrim are far from being generally morally "good" in this respect, even if they are legally "right".
Both sides have done wrong on one occasion or the other. Helm is a good example as well. He scorns Freca (who had done his share in causing tension!), and simply kills him and sending military into Westmarch to create a fait accompli there.

I think that the Northmen exemplify human wrongs too, but on a lesser level than the "Easterling". The Númenóreans might be even a bit "better" than The Northmen, but have some (racist) faults themselves. The fickleness of the Ehwathrumi/Rhovanion Horselords as a whole in Rhovanion in the 13th century is the cause for Gondor's greatest campaign in that area, and in the end it was only a part of them (Vidugavia's people) that proved loyal (for whatever reason) and were the stock of the lords of the later Éothéod and Rohirrim.

All this is worth to be considered and discussed in detail in another thread or an article in itself though
At least we have deviated from the original theme of the thread quite a lot



Best
Tolwen

On several occasions now, Tolwen.

Back to the Redwater now, shall we?

As you can tell,if you have been paying attention , I am introducing a small remnant of the Horsefolk of Rhovanion onto the Northern plains. I was planning on using the big forest in the Redwater valley as their base. Their settled dwellings would be here in a mirror image of their old settlements in the East Bight. I am going to have them call the forest ' The Ironwood'.
Their main enemy in the area would be a tribe of Orcs led by a monstrous Great Orc,known locally as the Hobgoblin of Ironwood. He has been the death of more than a dozen human champions among the Horsefolk, the Dalemen of the Redwater Valley and the Easterlings who dwell across the river.
I take it that there is nothing in the canon to dispute this?

This is a great discussion and I am still digesting it. In particular, I was looking at the lakemen encampment at the stairs and wondering who the lakemen were trading with to the south.

One thought on the wainriders - perhaps the wains were more like hussite war-wagons? Portable mini-forts that frustrated cavalry and provided defense for a migrating people.

The chieftens can still ride chariots, which I take as symbolic/cultural rather than as a tactical advantage, as others have discussed above.

-Jeff

Nothing I'd be aware of

So, I have a few questions to get a better picture of these guys:

• Are their homesteads supposed to be in the forest or near to it? Since the East Bight came to be due to the tree-felling of the Northmen, I don't think they are especially fond of trees as an end in itself.
• If they are living near the forest (with the orcs around), what is their reason to be there? Or did the orcs come only recently?
• And are the orcs supposed to have their lair in the forest?
• Are these Northmen supposed to be part of those that "merged" with the Dalemen, or are they an independent group, (what I would think, living decidedly more east)?

What is the rough timeline for them? That would make it easier for me (and others hopefully too - prevents me from looking like the single dumbhead not getting it right ) to judge their imagined history.

Best
Tolwen

Thanks Jaif, I have really enjoyed this discourse.. I just keep pitching the balls and Tolwen keeps knocking them out of the park..... gonna gang up with Mim one of these days........that'll show him.........

Yep, I'm the party-pooper

It's a dirty job, but someone's gotta do it

Actually, I have to agree with Jaif - you two have a great discussion going, both informative (I've learned a great deal) & amusing .

Ok guys. This is my take on the diminished remnant of the Horsefolk of the Dalelands.

Before the coming of the Wainriders there were many clans of Horsefolk scattered across the plains of southern Rhovanion. For the majority of these, their permanent settlements were located in the East Bight of Mirkwood, but several of the clans had made their homes on the southern banks of the River Running near to the trading posts of the Lakemen. The Lakemen travelled the river fairly regularly from the Long Lake to Dorwinion and had established trading links with the 'Ewathrumiska' as the Horsefolk referred to themselves.
The Dwarf garrison of Erebor(such as it was) often hired cavalry from among the Horsefolk, whom they quartered among the folk of the neighbouring city of Dale, to protect ore and supply convoys between Erebor and the small Dwrfish mining communities of the Iron Hills.
Many of these cam from the Horsefolk of the Nan Celduin(?).
When the Easterlings swarmed across the plains, these clans found themselves separated and unable to make common cause with their kin in the East Bight. The civilians fled across the river into the Dalelands while the men folk fought a gallant, but ultimately doomed, rearguard action.
The handful of survivors gathered in the shadow of Erebor to find that most of their men had perished. Only a handful of survivors and those in service to the Dwarfs remained. The vast horse herds were also gone, captured by the Easterlings.
Many of the women and children became fully integrated into Dalish society.. Others, including most of the remaining warriors, elected to relocate east to the Ironwood and to try to continue their culture. Their lack of numbers proved to be an insurmountable obstacle though and through time they were forced to intermarry with the Dalish folk of the Redwater valley. Their strange dialect, their preference for their old Rhovanic names, their skill with horses and their semi nomadic existence are the things which make them distinguishable from their Dalish neighbours.
Until the coming of Smaug in 2770 they still provided horsemen for the forces of Dale and Erebor and were politically, if not culturally, merged with the Dalefolk.
Since then, all the groups have been more or less autonomous. Laketown, the river Running and Redwater trading posts have all swollen with refugees from Dale to become sizeable settlements and the Horsefolk trade with them all equally.
Their settlements are built under the eaves of the Ironwood. I take this to mean that they are not in the Ironwood, but may use it as a windbreak against the worst of the winter weather and the cold north wind.
The Orcs are now settled in the Ironwood. They are survivors of the Battle of Five Armies and have recently been forced out of the Iron Hills by the Dwarfs. They have been there for about two years.
The Horsefolk now provide horseflesh to the Dalefolk but few warriors. Such as there are in these times are scouts or outriders. Any cavalry forces are of lesser quality now, being born out of necessity amongst the Dalefolk in exile.

I don't see any reason why your Orc remnants lurking within the Ironwood (good name, BTW) can't have a handful of Wolves and/or Bats that also fled.

Just imagine the surprise of your erstwhile heroes when they think they're all that & emulating Eorl or such when up pop some ravenous & cunning Wolves/Wargs .

Absolutely agreed Mim. The Orc band is not that big but it will include a small number of wargs that function as mounts to the bravest(most foolish) of the band. Not so sure about the bats, though there is no reason why Ironwood cannot have a colony of it's own, I suppose.

I am placing several Dalish/Barding settlements in the Redwater Valley as well. These are speculatively called Northwall(between the IronHills and the forest), Redford(south of the woods) and Farhold(at the confluence of the two rivers).

The Horsefolk only have two real settlements. The first lies on the Ironwood's southern edge. The second lies in the shadow of the Long Ridge which separates the Long Lake from the plains. The vast bulk of the Horsefolk live on large ranches at the forest edge.
The Eastwood, which blankets both slopes of the Long Ridge is also plagued by it's fair share of ruffians and Orcs.

Theres a lot more work and it all needs a bit of tidying up before I present it in PDF as a guide to the Kingdom of Dale in the years 2946-3019TA.

Don't hold your breath though, a I have two pre school daughters who are taking up a lot of time presently.

OK. Now i see a bit clearer. As you might imagine, I was asking with a specific purpose in mind

So these folks are planned to be in the eastern plains (around the Carnen) from the 19th century TA onward. From the first quick glance I have two (or three) points I'd like to mention:

First, we have an Easterling problem that is solved in 2590, when the returning Dwarves aid the Dalemen in repelling them decisively. As we have developed in this thread, it is likely that the Easterlings (Balchoth) troubled the Dale-folk in the late 26th century when the Dawrves were either unwilling or unable (or both) to provide signficant assistance. Therefore the Balchoth were able to put a lot of pressure on the eastern borders of Dale. It seems that this was not a short single-season invasion, but a longer-lasting problem; stretched for about 10 to 20 years. The point is now, what do the people at the Ironwood do in this time when the central and eastern part of the northern plains is likely to have been under Balchoth occupation?
In addition, even after they have been driven away from Dale, it is likely that they (the Balchoth) retained a foothold (or at least influence) in the eastern regions of the plains. Having a Carnen-centered offshot of the Ehwathrumi makes it harder to keep them independent (and ethnically pure Northmen) there due to this region being the most likely to be under Easterling domination (for a decade or two) or at least influence (probably much longer).
In the context of the size of the "Realm of Dale", it is IMO highlighting that in the LotR the power and magnificience of Dale is described as extending far to the South and East. Since the bounds are not further specified, but the fact that King Brand tried to halt the enemy's advance at the Carnen is a good hint that the Redwater forms the far eastern end of Dale's influence. In the same context, it is convenient to assume, that the unspecified southern boundary was the Celduin, and from looking at the LotR map, these are already quite far from Dale to warrant the above mentioned description. So, having Celduin and Carnen borders (up to the point where the two merge) is what we can count as "far-reaching" borders or Dale.

Now returning to the situation prior to TA 2590, Dale was far from being that influential as it was after the events of 'The Hobbit'. It probably experienced a boom with the arrival of Thrain I in TA 1999. This is likely to have ended when Thorin I departed with the majority of his folk in 2210. Then the importance of Dale probably declined sharply, since their major asset (the numerous Dwarves in Erebor) were gone. The continued and much diminished dwarven garrison there probably prevented a total loss of influence and importance, but nonetheless Dale's glory was very likely over for the time being (and perhaps Esgaroth taking over in importance and political weight).
Given these considerations, I deem it unlikely that Dale in this time (early 23rd to late 26th century) commanded a "realm" even near the size and extent of King Brand. Therefore I am a bit skeptical about whether assimilated Ehwathrumi-gone-Dalemen would live so far to the East, supposedly far beyond the reach or influence of the Lord of Dale (interestingly Girion - the only named character in this capacity - is only 'lord' of Dale. Only Bard and his successors are named as kings. Might it be that formal kingship only emerged after Smaug's death?).
Third (and final) I think that these folk living far to the East are still considered as "merged" with the Dale-folk. If they "merge", IMO they should live in the vicinity of the people they merge with (to facilitate a real "merge" rather than living side-by-side in a larger territory).
All said, I would see the territory of the permanent dwellings of these refugees more in the area that is bounded to the East by a line from the Mirkwood part east of the Celduin to the westernmost part of the Emyn Engrin. In the Carnen area, I would place temporary dwellings (i.e. for summer). If there are Northmen having fled to this area and living permanently there, I think they are likely to have mingled with the various people (Easterlings?) in this area, forming some sort of mixed people. In that respect they might be a similar people like the mixed folk of Westmarch, with both Dunlending and Rohirrim ancestry.

Best
Tolwen

Good questions Tolwen, and ones that I hope to answer.

Firstly, I am operating under the premise that between the defeat of the Wainriders at the Battle of the Camp and the rise of the Balchoth that any trouble was of a very low grade. Raids and counter raids but not on any grand scale.
We appear to be in slight disagreement about the geography of the raids. We have made a really good case for these Easterling problems in 2590 to be the ongoing work of our Balchoth chums. I like this a lot but although they are Easterlings the are living due south(ish) of Dale in the time period. The Prof says that the Dwarfs and Northmen who lived between the Celduin and Carnen pushed back the foes from the east. We took this to mean Easterlings rather than a literal interpretation that they came from the direction of the east when they invaded. At least, that was what I took from our discourse. The fact that he mentions the Northmen that dwelt between the two rivers suggests to me that Northmen lived as far east as the Redwater.
I am in full agreement that after the Dwarves leave for the Grey Mtns that Dale experiences a drop in it's fortunes which is promptly capitalised on by neighbouring Esgaroth.
Dalish trading posts/settlements in the Redwater Valley would seem to be reasonable. They were set up in the boom years(1999-2210)to provide an alternative 'dwarf friendly' trade route to Dorwinion without having to pay the scandalous taxes charged by those damned Elf Friends in Esgaroth.
I am more inclined towards a completely new Easterling culture(Hunnic)dwelling east of the
Carnen and north of Dorwinion. Having the Kingdom of Dorwinion straddle the Celduin places it between the Balchoth and the Carnen trading posts. We know that Dorwinion still exists at the time of the Hobbit. We don't know why Dorwinion was not destroyed by the Balchoth, so maybe it's existence was an effective barrier. Perhaps the Northman line of defence was made east to west instead of north to south and it was the Lake en trading posts on the Celduin that suffered?
The idea around the settlements near the forests is supposed to mirror the earlier settlement patterns in the East Bight. If you look at the further post you can see that it's constantly a work in progress. There is a portion of Mirkwood lying east of the Celduin. I have made references to Long Ridge and Eastwood. There. A potential for this area to be used as well though I am less inclined due to the imminent sack of Laketown by the Balchoth.
I don't see the problem with the distance from Dale. The People swear allegiance to the King in Dale and go off to settle near the Redwater Trading posts. The King is happy,he now has a source of horsemen in the immediate vicinity to combat raids from the pesky Easterlings across the river.
Even at it's height in the time of King Brand, I imagine that Dale is like Australia, empty in the middle with all the folk living around the edges.
I deliberately chose to refer to Girion as a King in an earlier post. After Bard slays Smaug the people choose him to be their King. I assume that most of those who do are those who still count
themselves as Dalish rather than Lakemen. There is no concern expressed about him being named King(except for the Master and, in my version, those who are Lakemen). This suggests to me that the Dalefolk have had Kings before. It seems reasonable to assume that Girion too was a King.
I do like the idea of mingled peoples that you mention and have already planned to introduce this. The Horsefolk have not mingled, at least not outside the Northman racial groupings. The exiles from Dale after 2770 in the Celduin valley are a whole different story.
Those of the most easterly settlements, such as Farhold, have developed unusual cultural habits as well as outlandish names such as Sviatobal, Vaclav etc.

I'm curious if either of you looked up (or had heard of already) the hussite war wagons. For me, it solves the "how were the wainriders a significant threat" issue.

I was also trying to wrap my brain around the trade issue. I don't think that trade only with the dwarves and elves was sufficient to make esgaroth a center of trade. Couple that with the presence of a town at the juncture of the river and the old road (the site of the first adventure), and I postulate some significant trade going down river towards the sea of rhun (which I see as the caspian sea analogue).

-Jeff

My two questions on a great talk.

On kingship in Dale haven't we from The Hobbit the spears that King Bladorthin have never been able to purchase? If I'm not wrong it was a forefather of Girion of Dale, or not?
And Esgaroth wasn't able to trade with Dorwinion in the past, since you say that kingdom wasn't destroyed/conquered in the past invasions, or the Easterling-Balchoth wars stopped the route?

Jaif,

You make a great suggestion about the Hussite war wagons, however, I'm not sure that they offer a balanced challenge for the Gondorians & Northmen in as much as their numbers & ferocity did.

We should all probably have another read of the Battle of the Camp in UT - when the Wainriders crash into the Gondorians they comprise a mix including their wains but also (apparently) horsemen & charioteers.

Kaneda,

You raise a point that I've also often wondered - how do any of you envision King Bladorthin? Do you see him - & his realm - as one of the Northmen or someone else? The reason I ask is that I'm considering writing a story line about his spears to supplement the material in TOR & Decipher's LOTR.

Halbarad,

While you & Tolwen are discussing the background & demographics, I find myself looking back through your posts & wondering how you're organizing your Horsefolk beyond a simple lord or king - unless you don't need to go any further for your story. Will you give their lord some type of council, & if so, will they have a potential traitor in their midst? I guess it's tricky to get past the whole Theoden & Wormtongue plot, but it's still a fun role-playing theme. Hmm, come to think of it, you may not wish to divulge details if any of your players read these .

Welcome to the conversation guys.
Jaif,

I saw the wains being used exactly as you are thinking. There is mention in the Canon of the wains in a laager/wagon burg as Tolwen and I briefly touched on it earlier. I'm thinking more of the Goths at Adrianople rather than the aggressive use favoured by Zizka's Hussites though. But then again, why not? I don't think that there is anything that says they didn't or wouldn't?

My thoughts on the sea of Rhun are documented in an earlier post. In brief, I view it as the Black sea rather than the Caspian but I suppose either would do at a pinch. The Celduin and the Carnen are the Dneipr and the Dneistr. The Northman settlements of those two valleys are going to be modelled on the Kievan Rus.
The trade you talk about is probably divided between the Elves,the Dwarves, the Northmen of the River valleys and the folk of Dorwinion.
All in my own humble opinion, of course. Other Wilderlands may vary.

Kaneda,

I think that Bladorthin is one of the great mysteries. Nothing seems to known except that he was a King and that he ordered some spears that he had never been able to purchase. Why was he unable to purchase them? Was it because Smaug destroyed Dale and Erebor? If so, then he exists at the same time that Girion is lord in Dale and cannot be King there.
If he comes from an earlier period, then something must have happened to him that prevented the purchase of the spears. Perhaps the petty King of a Horsefolk tribe on The plains of Rhovanion? Possibly even the King of Dorwinion?

As to why Dorwinion was not destroyed by the Wainriders or the Balchoth, I really don't know. Perhaps it did not exist as a Kingdom at that time? The folk of Dorwinion are, technically speaking, Easterlings. Perhaps they represented a settled form of the Wainriders, like the Turanians are to the Hyrkanians in Howard's Hyborian age? An earlier thread had them as Easterlings living under the rule of a Northman aristocracy.

Mim,

In 2946 all of the different groups in the Dalelands are operating with autonomy. There is no central authority figure as yet although Bard is on his way to becoming that figure. The Horsefolk have their own petty Lords of their own small clans and each with their own political position regarding unification in a single Kingdom of Dale.
By 3019, they will all be part of the Kingdom and have a single Lord. What his title might be escapes me at the moment, but he is Marshall of the Kings Horse and a member of the Kings counsel.

Hullo there, everyone!
One word - wow. From simple question from voidstate You created such a big but interesting topic

But talking about this region...

"Little is known of the peoples who lived along the river, except for the Northmen who lived in the lands west of the Redwater in the Third Age. These Men enjoyed a strong alliance with the Dwarves of the Iron Hills, maintaining a prosperous community in this region." link

At least not as great that a Gondorian chronicler would take notice. Any territorial changes that stay within reasonable bounds is likely to go under the Gondorian radar of noteworthy events.

We meant the same, but I probably did not mention clear enough what I was thinking.
From the geography, I agree that the invasion would come from the south or southeast at most. The southern border (the Celduin) is the longest too. Any attack coming from this direction is likely to quickly cut the land in two parts (a western and eastern half). This was my concern, since in this case, the "Horselords' " homes were cut off from their brethren, and with Easterlings to the (true) east and inhospitable mountains to the north, they have no place to flee further.

I agree that the Northmen would be living within these two rivers, but since the Carnen then is the far eastern boundary, they have only a tenuous and temporary presence there, with their permanent homes much further west. If they would live permanently at the Cranen, it would be very likely that they would spread their influence enev beyond. IMO it's natural if no one lives there. And if someone - potentially hostile (the nature of Easterlings ) - is there, I would not choose a place near to them to make my permanent settlements. In that case, I would choose my own kinfolk in the greater Dale/Esgaroth area (and merge with them )

Dale might even stem this loss somewhat. Of course the loss of direct contact with the dwarven king is a loss not easily compendsated, but since the Dwarves in the Grey Mountains still need foodstuffs (which they themselves do not produce), Dale stil be the place where all this trade is channeled. Of course any herding/agriculture in the territory between Erebor and the Ered Mithrin would be under Dale's authority, but they would (and perhaps could) not exercise a very tight control.

A nice idea! But still you'd have to transport the wares to the Carnen overland, which is not very economical and cumbersome. The river transport on the Celduin is the ideal transport route for any mass goods - and Esgaroth holds a commanding position here, as far as further transport northward is concerned.

It all depends on how Dorwinion is designed of course. We have nil "authentic" information, so a wide range is possible, and here the preferences certainly will vary. We do not even know when it was founded. It could have been a recent phneomenon or already several centuries old

I have an article for OM in preparation (now only the beginning stages) to discuss the politics and demographics in Rhovanion since the Wainriders. At first I wanted to make it post-Balchoth only, but now I see, that including the Wainriders would be more prudent.

That's what I thought too. And that gave the concern that this line is prone to being pierced along its long course and the eastern half cut off.

Best
Tolwen

IMO it is not in doubt that the Wainriders used such massive wagons - and used them in defense as well. I doubt though that the Hussite tactic would work here. The latter's success relied on these massive laagers, supported by early stationay gunpowder artillery (e.g. similar to Castillon a few years later) that broke the cavalry-centered "crusades" of the imperial armies sent to defeat them.
Gondor's army was always infantry-centered. Even the Ehwathrumi/Éotheód contingent would only supplement this. Against a disciplined infantry attack and without gunpowder artillery I doubt that such tactics would be successful. A good deal of the Hussite auccess was due to the arrogance and ignorance of the knightly armies sent against them.
In defence I definitely see these tactics used though, but not on a decisive scale.

Best
Tolwen

Bladorthin has been in the past made into an elven king further east, an easterling lord or a Dorwinrim king or .... Take your pick

Or he might have been toppled, killed or died a natural death before the delivery of the spears. It is a very open field indeed.


Best
Tolwen

So, my last post this evening I hope

What is the source of this? In the Glyphweb article I could find no reference. Since by now we are going to collect all relevant passages where we can find something about this region and the people, I would welcome to know where this comes from. Do you have an idea?

Best
Tolwen

Tolwen, there is also the distinct possibility that the troubles with the Balchoth experienced by the Dalelands were also small scale affairs. Let's face it, Eorl the Young and his lads were fighting them for quite a while. It is possible that the strength of the Balchoth was shattered and that small raids into the Dalelands were the source of these 'troubles', rather than the previous invasion tactics employed against Calenardhon. The gathering of a horde big enough to sack Esgaroth may have been a one off. They are still, primarily, an infantry based army at this time. A compromise would probably be to suggest that the southernmost settlements on the Redwater may have suffered the hands of the Balchoth but not the ones north of the bend. I am thinking about the fear experienced by the Orcs before they reached Fangorn when they realised that the 'Horse boy's were after them. Perhaps the central plains were pretty much abandoned by both sides.

Thank you for the information concerning Bladorthin - I appreciate your take very much!

Over the years I too have expected him to fill several different types of shoes, depending upon my interpretation, & I lean increasingly toward one of the Dorwinrim.

This makes for a unique link with the wine trade, & thus incorporates the Wood-elves & Raft-elves as well, though I wouldn't see any problems with his being Elven (Avari or such, but we digress ).

BTW, one of the reasons that I've decided to write-up something on Bladorthin is Jon's fantastic image of a spear on p. 138 - great artwork!

I would be inclined to go with Bladorthin as a King in Dorwinion as well, Mim. Not sure that Francesco did though. Under the description of the spears, it may suggest that he was a previous Lord of Dale? I may have imagined that though....

As Dorwinion is pretty much a blank canvas, I would love to read other people's thoughts on it. My own are already documented throughout this thread and Tolwen makes a good point when he says that we don't know when it came into existence. All we know about it is that it exists around the default time period of TOR. Does it still exist at the time of the war of the ring? What do you guys think?

The RedWater thread spins off on another tangent.......

Yep. There are lot of possibilities. That's IMO a direct consequence from the fact that Tolkien left us so little about the region and its people. I guess we have collected all the relevant quotes. Looking at these, we cannot really deduce on the most likely course of events or demographic distribution. Here we come to matters of personal preferences (within the - rough - framework), and I guess we prefer different views here

Nonetheless, I always enjoy discussions such as these, which always give great input and inspiration

Best
Tolwen

P.S.: I noted that the forest along the Carnen only appears on the TOR map. So I have discovered the first part of "TOR canon geographical feature" for myself

To make it clear: I am definitely not against such additions, since they are essential for the purpose of making a a more detailed and working world upon Tolkien's framework.

It has all been very enjoyable for me as well, Tolwen. I look forward to seeing your Demographics of the Wilderlands at some stage. I hope that the input here, from all concerned, has inspired you and given 'food for thought'.

I truly hope that we can find another topic of discourse in the, not too distant, future.

Wasn't there also an 'Armies of Eriador' PDF at one stage? Was that yours also?

Yes, that's in one of the last Other Hands Issues. IIRC it was the last one. These can be downloaded (if you haven't done already) at the OM site. In OM10 there is a short article about the "digitalization" of this hardcopy fanzine (largely by myself as well ).

Best
Thomas