I've mentioned a couple times before that my current character is, unbeknown to her, the daughter of one of the river-maidens. My group's LM and I are operating under the assumption that they are of the same race as Goldberry, although I suppose that they could be more like Goldberry's mother, the river-woman. (Although it's not clear if being a river-woman is that different from being a river-daughter).

So...

Just what are the river-maidens?

Naiads. Nature spirits or nymphs of Streams. The watery version of Dryads(who it would be easy to put a Tolkien spin on as well).

There's a bit of a Celtic feel to them as well when they take the form of Salmon and perhaps, after corrupted by the Shadow they exhibit the tendencies of Kelpies.

IMO the only solution that is in accordance with Tolkien's cosmological construction of the created beings (Ainur and Eruhíni) is their nature as minor Ainur that are more or less embodied in these forms.
Thus they might be compared to miniature versions (in terms of power) of Melian the Maia who became incarnated by wedding Elwë/Thingol.

I'd see them as "naiads" or "dryads" of real-world myth, minor Ainur of similar basic interest as Yavanna or Ulmo who became so enamoured of their chosen sphere, that they forsook their natural bodiless existence and took shape in the physical world on a permanent basis.

Cheers
Tolwen

EDIT: Halbarad was quicker

My answer was going to be pretty much what Tolwen said, though I'll note that for your character concept it would make more sense for your character to be half River-Maiden; otherwise it would be odd if she didn't develop any supernatural powers! There's precedent for such a union, as Luthien is the product of Thingol and Melian (so going down the line, Elrond has Elven, Human, and Maia blood).

Yes, that is the assumption.

We assume that her father is as-yet-identified Woodman who had a tryst with one of the river-maidens. Given their mercurial character, as described in the LMB, I assume that it was an one-night stand, which she probably initiated as sport or game. The river-maiden later turned her daughter over to Radagast.

I imagine that her father is a close relative of the family to which Radagast brought her, but I've left that unspecified for the LM to use as a plot element down the line.

That makes a great deal of sense. I sort of viewed them as nymphs, but wondered if people who knew more about Middle Earth might more a better answer.

If the river-maidens are Maiar, though, then what is Goldberry? She is the River-woman's daughter, but what does that mean? Is she the River-woman's biological daughter, or is it more metaphorical than that?

That sounds quite "careless" and very human if you know what I mean. It is in clear contrast to other incarnated Ainur though. Begetting and childbirth are the most "binding" activities an Ainu can do, making him/her almost elven-like in the way of binding permanently to the chosen body (e.g. no more shape-shifting or water-breathing, as an incarnate is unable of both)!

Tolkien has thought about such things in his essay on Ósanwe-kenta (enquiry into the communication of thought), and adds in his note 5 here:

Please note especially the passage that once a spirit has done such things (e.g. begetting or conceiving), s/he is furthermore bound to this incarnate (=elven- or human-like) body and subject to the same limitations as are the Incarnate (Elves, men and Dwarves).

Cheers
Tolwen

I would see Goldberry to be of the same order and capacity as the River-maidens. I wouldn't interpret the "daughter" biologically, but more in the form of a "daughter in spirit", i.e. metaphorical as you say.

Cheers
Tolwen

Thanks for this. It's not something fleshed out in my character's history yet. Rather, I've left this stuff with the LM to work out. That way, he can bring in things as he likes, if he likes, as plot elements. I always try to do that in RPGs, as much as possible: leave some matters in my PC's background, that can potentially inspire the GM for plot ideas. That's because I tend to be from the "storytelling" school of thought, which sees RPing as a collective effort in storytelling.

Bombadil is something of a special case. Goldberry may be as well. "Rivermaiden's Daughter" could be intended as both literal and metaphorical at once, although not necessarily biological.

As for a character being a child of one of the Rivermaidens, I very much like the idea. It seems to tie in well with the Selkies and Swanmays of Western European myth as well as the nymphs of Greece.

As far as being bound heavily by Tolkien's metaphysics and cosmology of Arda, remember that both LotR and the Hobbit lie in a fuzzy area. They are both set in Middle Earth, but contain elements that seem to violate what is set down about Middle Earth elsewhere. My personal resolution to this is to decide how much which parts of Tolkien's writings and thoughts apply to a particular campaign. Is he campaign heavily flavored like a light hearted fairy tale such as the Hobbit? Is it a sweeping epic focused on few heroes and their doings like a Nordic Saga, as in LotR? Is it bound strictly by the greater cosmological elements like Silmarillion? Each of these is a "correct" approach to the source material, but each will result in a very different game, with different depths of background and mechanics behind them.

Even in the most Hobbit-like campaign some things will still feel out of place. Dwarves and goblins in steam powered fighting machines for example. Gunpowder weapons, other than blasting powder and skyrockets also seem out of place. Excessive talking animals a la Narnia would be going to far into faerie in my opinion. Spacemen, mutants, and lasers are definitely going too far. Although nothing is to stop a LM from devising a science fiction take on the stories and having the One Ring be imprinted with microcircuitry.

Tolwen, from what I have seen, is much more deeply rooted in Tolkien scholarship than I am. I tend more towards the same source myths that Tolkien used for inspiration. Thus we give rather differing answers to the same question. Note that I am very pleased to have the fruits of Tolwen's scholarship.

From an in-world perspective, I account for the differences by the fact that The Hobbit and LoTR were written by Hobbits, and the Silmarillion by Elves.

Presumably, Elves know a whole lot more about Middle Earth's history and nature, as the eldest among them are older than even the First Age. So, a lot of things which Elves would know about quite well are going to seem weird and mysterious to Hobbits.

One could imagine that the Ent-wives would have some vaguely dryad-esque features, and so do the Elves as matter of fact, but I could also imagine that there exists something that Tolkien might have called "forest maidens."

True, and I could see ent-wives causing a great deal of dryad folk-lore and tales.

But unlike the river maiden and other earthly spirits, Ents are one of the living races that where created by Eru if I'm not mistaken (along Elves, Men and through Aule, Dwarves). There could very well be forest-spirit akin to the river-maiden in addition to Ent-wives, which would be another type of being altogether.

As for the character discussed in the opening post, she could also be more of a spiritual "sister" of the river-maiden rather than a daughter. Her mother (or grand mother) could also have produced the three river maiden of Mirkwood (and later suffered the fate of a mortal women after confiding the child to Radagast).

This whole story has a certain Arthurian feel, which I like. I was still wondering how to flesh-out the character of Radagast without simply making it a druidish-Gandalf. Fleshing the character after Merlin might be a good avenue...

Glorfindel

All quite interesting. So far, all we've specified is that her mother was one of what I call generically the river-girls. Whether she was one of the river-maidens mentioned in the LMB, or their mother, or some one else, I'm leaving for the LM to use as plot items.

BTW: In which physical form did she have intercourse with the father of the character and later bore the child? Human- or elven-like? It'd be good to know for further reference, since this is the bodily incarnation the - former - river-maiden ('former' in terms of typical river-maiden abilities) is afterwards bound to and unable to leave/change again.

This is also the reason I said "careless" above. She invests a lot in this child by foregoing many of her former typical abilities (especially those having to do with changing her bodily form). Then it's strange she would leave this child alone after birth. Perhaps she was not aware beforehand what she would give up...

Cheers
Tolwen

It may also be possible that she foresaw/knew of some pressing need in future for her child to serve a role and so delivered her to Radagast in preparation.

Tolkien does offer a few hints of predestination in LotR, especially as concerning Bilbo being "meant" to find the Ring and it's being "meant" to come to Frodo. Also as concerns Gollum having "some future part to play".

When the spirits responsible for overseeing nature take bodies (hroa) they would probably be perceived as being either elementals or nature spirits / fey / faeries (at least, to Man).

As to Brooke's character... Something that might be relevant here is whether the River-maidens are Skinchangers (using an enchanted item to change physical shape, but not mentality) or Shapechangers (lycanthropes as seen in other games; mental and physical change). Vampires in the Silmarillion are Skinchangers; TOR handles them differently. It would affect the character's natural abilities in that if the River-maidens are natural water creatures (so to speak) they might confer more aquatic traits as opposed to a Skinchanger whose form would essentially appear as an Elf/Man. All of the aquatic abilities would be bestowed by the enchanted item in the later case and therefore cannot be passed down genetically. Although the character could inherit the enchanted item itself.

On a side note I always imagined Goldenberry as being the biological offspring of the Riverwoman (although the father's race would be vitally important here) and as such she has limited mobility as she is tied to a water-source. I cannot imagine a valid constraint on Tom's movement without this restriction. Another issue, dependent on Goldenberry's father, is just how mortal is she? Otherwise Tom Bombadil will suffer the same fate as Aragorn and Arwen; the spouse will die and the survivor will be left bereft and fade. I vaguely recall something about Tom surviving to see the return of Morgoth - that he would be last just as he was first, or something like that. In a mortal / immortal pairing of this nature, and the time involved, that might be enough angst to Corrupt Tom. (I have not read the book on Tom though, so I might be woefully ignorant here.)

Yes, I assume something like that. She's a foundling from the perspective of the Woodmen among whom she grew up, but not necessarily from the perspective of Radagast or her mother.

Since I am now playing Dagmar, or a variation upon her in the PbEM campaign which we've started with Hoplitenomad, the other possibility is that this version isn't a Foundling. Rather, her mother forsook the life of the river-maidens for a mortal life with a Woodman. That would still work with the basic background: Dagmar doesn't know that her mother is a river-maiden, and perhaps neither does her father.

Just a thought.

That sounds like a good base for further development in the social interactions

Based on the evidence from Tolkien, this self-incarnation of an ëala (a spirit-being who has no body by nature) will probably be similar to the Istari: a human-looking body, but not subject to age (due to the strong inner spirit) and thus "ageless". In special/magical abilities she (or an ëala in such a situation in general) is superior to men, probably on a level with the Eldar.

Thus it will be only for a relatively short time that she can pass as a "real" mortal before her apparent agelessness will cause attention.

Cheers
Tolwen

Where, in the many volumes out there of Tolkien's writings on Middle-earth, would I look for the best information on the ëala?

I would poke around in the Histories but that might require some digging. However, if you are a huge fan of Tolkien Lore and all the "pieces" so to speak....there is a wonderful book by Robert Foster called the "The Complete Guide to Middle-Earth, Tolkien's World from A to Z".

It is a great resource to have on hand when reading the books or gaming!

The term is mentioned by Tolkien in the History of Middle-earth, Vol. 10: Morgoth's Ring. It is among the most informative and fascinating of the volumes of the whole series - at least for me

Here you get unrivalled in-depth information on Eldarin customs and Tolkien's final thoughts of the cosmology of his Arda.

As mentioned, the term defines beings whose natural state of existence is without a body. All the Ainur are of this sort.

Cheers
Tolwen

Just chiming in to say:
1-Beautiful character concept.
2-The idea of an Istari-like ëala living in hiding among the Woodmen is very intriguing.

I've been hearing a series of people recently referencing v. 10. I think I need to pick it up in the near future.

I have to say, I love the HoME, in principle. In practice, since I didn't even get through all of LoTR until a couple years back, I don't know when, if ever, I'll get through all twelve volumes. I'd like to, though.

So, I just added HoME volume 10 to my Amazon Wish List, with hopes that perhaps my husband will get it for Mother's Day. He learned long ago that the key to his wife's heart is neither flowers nor chocolate, but a well-bound book.

That said, will never turn down chocolate...

I should also have been more precise. Within the book it is to be found in part three, The Later Quenta Silmarillion.

Cheers
Tolwen

I was just looking at the Amazon write-up on v. 10. I love the quote, from Tolkien, that the whole of Middle-earth was Morgoth's ring. That in and of itself makes v. 10 sound horribly interesting.

I don't recall where but I believe Tolkien mentioned a little bit of destiny with Mithrellas and Imrazor the Numenorean. That the Elven blood enriched the Princes of Dol Amroth. Maybe likewise as the 3rd age closes Dagmar is a little boost to the mortal gene pool.

HN

I kinda like that idea, actually.

It's like Eru is saying, "Okay, Men, here's a little more Ainur in the mix."