What determines if a player will be granted an automatic success? Are there any conditions that should be met to make this possible or is it solely the discretion of the Loremaster?

I'm not sure this is going to be a lot of help but my thoughts FWIW.

The most relevant rules text appears to be under Trait Etiquette on AB Pg95, where it says:

So I guess, other than the suggestion that the whole group gets a say and then the Loremaster adjudicates if there's any debate, it would appear to be at the Loremaster's discretion.

The only other guidance I note is that on the same page it says:

This seems to imply that a test that requires more than an ordinary success can't be achieved through calling on a Trait. Though I note that in TOR terms an "ordinary success" relates purely to extra successes (i.e. not a Great or Extraordinary success) and is not TN related. So can you call for an Automatic success on a TN18 roll for example? I don't have an answer to this other than "at the Loremaster's discretion".

When my players invoke a Trait to gain an automatic success I always ask them to describe or roleplay out what they intend to do. This way it makes the following result a little more entertaining, and less likely for the other players to object the use of the Trait.

Normally I think that when invoking a Trait it would be for the standard TN of 14, however if the description my player gives is good I would let them do it for a higher TN.

Sometimes if the TN is very high 18+ or the roll would maybe require a Great or Extraordinary success I would let them invoke a Trait to roll the dice with a lower TN or not to require the Great success.

Again it is something for the LM to decide, but try not to worry too much, if it's fun and entertaining, and moves the story forward, let your players us their Traits and they should start to come up with some unique ways to use them in more unconventional situations.

I only allow automatic success using a trait if the difficulty is TN14, which is most of them. On higher difficulties, I may grant the player a difficulty one level easier for the trait use. For example, players climbing a cliff-face might be in for a Hard (TN16) roll but a character with Mountaineer as a trait will only find it a Moderate (TN14) climb.

If a player wants to invoke a trait but still roll, to try for a better level of success than just a pass, I will again consider reducing the difficulty by one level.

I'm also have similar problems adjudicating how traits work, and letting them be used without being abused.

For example, what if a player said "I'm fierce, so I'm invoking a trait to automatically hit the orc"
Or "I"m Fierce and Vengeful, so I'm invoking both traits to automatically hit AND score a piercing blow"

Similarly, what if a player invokes "Mountaineer" to automatically pass a Travel or Explore check while in the mountains. What's to stop him from just invoking Mountaineer ALL the time when Travel or Explore checks are required in Mountainous terrain?

And I'm not saying that my players are that immature or opportunistic, but without refining boundaries, what exactly is the line of abuse?

They can do if you, as Loremaster, deems it okay to do so. However, they won't gain any advancement points for any Travel rolls that way.

in referne to the player who wanted to automatically hit in combat:

I think traits are only be be used to replace common skill rolls, and therefore could not be used to automatically hit an orc much less get a peircing blow.

Assuming there is a fine ruling somewhere, even if it's true, it doesn't cut down on the potential of abuse for common skills, which can be similarly humped...

Here's a third thread on Traits and Automatic Success that might be helpful.


http://cubicle7.clicdev.com/f/index.php?tr...&showtopic=3315

And here's a forth:


http://cubicle7.clicdev.com/f/index.php?tr...topic=2489&st=0

The character doesn't gain advancement points for trait use - so the skill would never improve. Plus, any trait use for an auto success if Loremaster discretion. If you don't think it applies to the situation, don't allow it.

sorry double post and 'delete' button seems non-functional (too)

There are a couple more threads on the same topic (so six altogether), but they generally cover the same ground.

Here is a highlight of five and six.

This is helpful; the non-awarding of an AP will dissuade it from being overly used, however given that only 3 attempts ever will produce an AP in a skill group, there's still plenty of room for it to be abused.

The problem in your second part is not so much that's it is up to me as LM, but rather that, once I have ruled that a particular circumstance is applicable for a trait invocation, *I* have set precedent that such a scenario is fair ground for trait usage. Sure, I can undermine that at any point, and "rule by decree" as it were, but such whimsical rulings tend to undermine confidence in the GM or LM if the players don't happen to agree with the ruling, especially if the system that produces such rulings is as free-form as it is.

This is my only criticism of trait-usage.

As provided above - this has been discussed a number of times in various threads. There is some good info and I highly recommend people read them.

In a nutshell - invoking traits....


1) only for common skills (not weapon skills - thus attacking)

2) Just saying "I have Mountaineering Trait" is not "invoking" the trait for the purpose of gaining an auto success. The spirit of this system is to encourage the player to engage in roleplaying the effectiveness of the trait. Instead to Invoke the trait (for the purpose of gaining an auto-success) the player should explain why or how that trait applies to the current situation "Due to my life spent among the Iron Hills, climbing a mountain is a second nature to me - finding the right footholds and handholds comes easily and thus climbing this hill to emerge from the ravine is something I can do in my sleep. I clap my hands together, look at my companions and proclaim, 'Bah, this is a poor excuse for a defensive front, I've climbed stairs steeper than this! I'll lower a rope to you when I reach the top!"

3) Invoking a trait assumes an "average success" to something that isn't critically important by someone trained to do it. Similar to "taking 10" in D20 systems. In other words - you would expect someone with a trait "Ace Pilot" to be able to land an airplane. We are not talking about every pilot trained to fly - we're talking Top Gun pilots here! You'd expect him to be able to do ordinary stunts - barrel roll, flip, etc. You'd expect him to be able to land in most inclement weather. By simply doing an "ordinary" amount of work he can make these happen. On the other hand someone who is NOT inherently adept at flying - maybe with just a little training, would need to give it his all and hope luck is on his side (dice rolling). Furthermore, even an ace pilot would need to sit up and take notice and give it his all if the circumstances of landing the plane are critical: during a hurricane, while one wing is damaged, an aileron is all shot up, and out of gas and is now making an emergency landing etc. In such cases - a Loremaster could indicate that invoking a trait isn't an option - or could simply lower the TN of the test due to the trait. Most players should be allowed to invoke a trait even if case of the emergency landing if just one or two of those conditions are present - afterall - a trait is indicative of something that is a key component of the characters life. Like Michael Phelps as a swimmer. Or Eric Clapton as a guitarist.

4) Invoking a trait automatically waives the right to try for Greater, or Extra_ordinary successes. Sometimes these add-ons can be quite beneficial.

5) Invoking a trait automatically waives the ability for a player to earn an Advancement Point. So a player could invoke his Mountaineering trait every time he's expected to climb or travel through mountainous terrain, or survive in mountains, or withstand the weather there, etc. However and whatever he feels the trait is applicable to - IF he can define/describe how that trait plays a role in his intrinsic knowledge/ability at succeeding with the task-at-hand. But he'll never enjoy great successes, and he'll never gain an advancement point.

6) the ultimate purpose of the traits in-game is to allow characters with certain inherent esoteric knowledge/skills to truly behave in heroic fashion, and out of game, speed up the play process by guaranteeing a success and moving on. Furthermore the design is elegant, and allows for encouraging roleplaying from players. It is quite universal too, and lends itself to a wide-array of possibilities - i.e. the clever use of the Smoking Trait as described in the book. Thus it allows for limitless imagination, and clever uses.

I can definitely see this point - and has been a stated concern or mine, and by my players.

You can combat this concern by setting another precedent: be sure to frequently reward players with additional benefits for rolling greater, and extra-ordinary successes.

Players are often like children - when they seen one person get a cookie - they want one too.


So be sure to extend your hand of rewards and bonuses when someone makes a greater/extraordinary success on things, and people may not always wish to take the auto-success. And if they do - remember that most of the time, it was probably something they should have succeeded with eventually anyways.


EXAMPLE - climbing a rocky, sheer and dangerous cliff face. LM describes the setting, and obstacle, and ensuring to describe how dangerous and difficult it looks. Still the fellowship considers this a better option than turning back and traveling a few weeks looking for a different way around. LM rules that due to this being so treacherous, it's a TN 16. (usually TN 14 is sufficient for most checks, but this was meant as a major obstacle for this quest).

Bob climbs: Fails check.
Tom climbs: Greater Success
Dave climbs: Extraordinary Success
Mike climbs: regular success
John climbs: Invokes Mountaineering
Rick climbs: Fails check - Gets an EYE

LM: rules that the extraneous efforts needed to traverse this very dangerous mountain pass will leave the party with a couple points of Fatigue.
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"Tom makes his way finding adequate foothold, and handholds, his sturdy rope and spike climbing shoes make the climb look easy. Bob, climbs right in front of you, he seems to be struggling though. He grunts with his exertion, and suddenly the rock he's clinging to breaks away, he desperately reaches for something to keep his footing. Tom - since you had a Greater success, you can lend a d6 to Bob's skill test. (the extra d6 does the trick, and Bob succeeds)."

TOM: "I see Bob begin to slip, I immediately imbed my pick axe that I was using to help climb with into the rock, holding on, I reach my other hand out and grasp Bob's arm, swinging him back to the wall"

LM: "Dust, rock, and snow breaks off and falls out of sight below, at the last second you swing Bob around around and with a grunt you see him latch on to the cliff - convinced he is now safe, you return to your task and ascend to the top side-by-side with Bob to assure he reaches the top in one piece. Ahead of you, you can see Dave making great strides, making it look easy as he swings his pick-axe, and rope around trailblazing a path for the others to follow. Suddenly below him, Rick lets out of a holler for help, as he begins to slip, hanging on for dear life, Rick dangles over the gorge, having lost his grip from the wall, and is swinging uncontrollable by his rope. Rick when you lost your grip, you suddenly jolted yourself and banged against the rock. Dave, since you rolled an Extraordinary success, you can lend a d6 to help your friend, Rick." (d6 works and succeeds.)

Dave: I calmly speak to Rick to get him to settle down and focus, calling to my friend, I anchor myself, and lower the other end of my rope to him, ensuring he grabs it; I then help swing him to grab on to something firm. I remind him "Don't look down my friend. Here, take my rope. Do not worry - we have overcome far worse things than climbing rocks in our times together."

LM: Your calming words and quick actions does the trick. Rick grabs your rope, and swings himself to reach a large rocky formation jutting from the side. You've secured, Rick who looks a little banged up and worried. Rick - since you rolled an Eye, when you first lost your grip and banged against the rock and suddenly jolted to a stop you unfortunately lost your helmet, and you watched helplessly as it cascaded down the mountain.

Rick: Thank you my friend! I will be sure to buy you an extra round of mead when we reach town.

Dave: I look forward to it! Though you have lost your helmet, the head it protected remains intact.

LM: Mike and John you climb near each other and have little difficulty. Pacing yourselves well, and giving aid to each other you see the Dave, and Tom ahead of you reaching the top, and it gives you the inspiration to make your final efforts to reach them. John, your knowledge and familiarity with mountains seems to rub off on Mike as he mirrors your moves, and takes note of your effortless skill.

You quickly survey that despite their earlier problems, Rick and Bob are seeming to move along much better. Eventually you all reach the top and begin trying to catch your breath. It required a great amount of exertion and imposes two points of fatigue on you - Tom your greater success limits that to only 1 point of fatigue, and you gain an Advancement Point as you reflect on how you managed that climb so easily. Dave, due to your extraordinary success, you gain no fatigue, you also earn an Advancement Point (or even a second one if you already have one in that skill group.) Finally, the ease of which you scaled the wall, you reached the top so much sooner than everyone else, and had time to truly enjoy your view while you waited for the others to catch their breath. The scene below you is majestic and inspiring, and you feel invincible here while looking at the grand valley of Rhovanion far below you. You gain back one point of Hope as you soak up this view and cast it to memory.

Dave: Never in my life have I imagined such a beautiful sight. Someday I shall write a song about it, though I doubt it could ever do it justice.


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Fast forward to next encounter.....

LM explains a new set of rocky hills to traverse and calls for skill tests.

John: Nah I won't go for the auto-success this time.....(wanting to take a chance that he can gain some of the cool benefits that his fellow players got earlier.)

[John rolls dice, and succeeds normally - NOW he opts to Invoke the Trait - meaning he narrates HOW and WHY the trait played a roll in his success. ANd though he didn't get any extra rewards since he didn't roll greater or extraordinary success, Invoking a trait this way earns him an Advancement Point]


(the above is not meant to indicate that someone should lose a piece of equipment, that characters should lose Fatigue or than an Extraordinary success should earn back a point of Hope each and every time a major skill like this goes down - this is just an example showing many possible circumstances, and possibilities that can be narrated, and mixed in - many others exist too. It's worth noting that there's also precedence set that something this difficult would be best served as an extended skill check, narrating each success or failure until X number of successes occurs).

Very good example there, and nicely showing the mix of rules and narration.

@SirKicley - Great example. That's really helpful. Thanks.

@Evening - Thanks for digging out all the other Trait discussion threads.

This thread has definitely helped me gain a better appreciation of how the Trait mechanics are supposed to be played. So thanks for that. Much appreciated.

@SirKickley, I second the other comments. This is inspiring, & I only hope that the games I run capture it like this.

This, to me, is the money-shot; that's the take away as LM.

Give greater incentives for Great and Extraordinary successes.
That's the flip side of the coin for invoking traits for automatic successes.

Let me make sure I've got this right (I like succint, so if others could please confirm):

-Traits may be invoked to automatically succeed on COMMON SKILLS only.
-Traits cannot be invoked to automatically succeed on Weapon Skill tests/tasks or on Wisdom, Valour or Protection tests.
-Invoking a trait to automatically succeed bars you from being awarded an AP.
-Invoking a trait to automatically succeed bars you from being able to achieve heightened levels of success.
-Invoking a trait to automatically succeed requires group and LM consensus, with LM veto powers.

And guys, let me just add that I'm not trying to be pedantic here, I just need and like these bullet points, so I can train my PLAYERS how to use their traits.

Right now I'm hesitant and conservative in allowing them because I don't want to set a precedent that i cannot then withdraw from and because I don't want players to overly use/abuse them. "Determined" after all, could be used to justify success in almost anything!

As far as all the comments about encouraging a robust narrative. *I* like those ideas, but bringing that out of a group can be a tough thing and strictly speaking is not required by the rules. I realize that there is a lot of subjectivity to what constitutes "briefly describing", but even aside from that, one person's skill level at coming up with the kind of descriptions that others have used in this thread as examples can be a difficult challenge for some people; other simply don't like that and other people are just uncomfortable attempting that level of "make-pretend", so I try not to use that as an enforcement mechanism. Aside from that, how many times can one player describe how they grew up in the mountains of the Iron Hills and used to scale cliffs like a sheep scrambles a hill before it gets boring and redundant?

Thank you all for the kind feedback. I try to run games that capture this feel and narration.

I have had 30 years of RPGing in my corner to draw experience from - across a myriad of different systems and genres - mostly as a GM/DM role. I'm also blessed with having some very creative and well-experienced and good roleplaying buddies that play in our group - so that just inspires the game even more. Finally - it's much easier to make something like this sound great when I write it - with the time for forethought available to make it sound awesome; than it is playing live real-time when everything has to be ad-libbed on the spot.

That being, the more practice you have - the more you try to bring this out of yourself as LM, or encourage your players to do so - the more natural it becomes.

IMO, the best practice you can have for turning your games into great narratives like this (as opposed to just mechanics discussions and very truncated descriptions) is playing RPGs via PbP, or Email. In such settings, you have the luxury of thinking out your responses and commentary before committing them to writing. Once you're proficient at it - it becomes much more natural to do so at at a table-setting, and others around you pick up on it, and learn.

I've had a few players over the past decade join us at our table with very little roleplaying experience, or were veterans of RPGs, but never big on the roleplaying aspect of it - and have truly come to learn to contribute great commentary and narratives such as this at the table. They learned from seeing/hearing others do it. It's pretty special.


Good luck to you and happy gaming!

Here's another thought for LMs who fear being too lenient with Auto-Success of skills via Traits.....


IF the skill is being done as part of a "prolonged action", allow the Auto-Success only once for that action.

For example:
Going back to my earlier example of the fellowship climbing the mountain and one character having Mountaineering as a trait. Climbing something will frequently be a Prolonged Action (see precedence set in Dont Stray From The Path adventure in Tales of the Wilderland to climb the 30 foot wall to reach the man trapped in the spider cocoon designed to require a 3 success prolonged action).

The player may opt to allow any one of his athletics checks at climbing to be auto-success via Mountaineering (doesn't matter which - the wisest choice would be the last - cuz you have so much further to fall if you fail...), but the other checks must be resolved normally.

I don't know if I really feel strongly one way or the other on this - but I think I'll try doing it this way for a couple game sessions and see if it makes a big difference. I fall in the category of being concerned that players can too easily take advantage of the Traits/auto-success, but at the same time, understand the purpose of it so I'm on the fence.