I was wondering what to do when someone uses a trait on a test that doesn't use a skill. Say someone invokes the trait determined on a valour based test, or a protection test. I guess this isn't allowed by the rules, since there is no where to put the advancement. But it still feels like you should be able to do it. But if so, where does the advancement go?

You are right that its not allowed by the RAW, which is why there is no where for the advancement to go.

Gaining an Advancement point is only one of three reasons to invoke a Trait. The Loremaster could accept the use of the Trait for an Automatic action. The only real governing principle here is found on p. 95 of the Adventurer's Book, which says, The Loremaster may agree with a Trait invocation to speed up play, especially if failing at the roll would not lead to dramatically relevant consequences, or if the action wasn’t difficult.

That being said, I don't think invoking a Trait on a Protection test is appropriate because it would unbalance the game. And invoking a Trait on a Valour test would also be highly unlikely for the same reasons, but I suppose it is possible. If the Loremaster described a terribly frightening creature that threatened to take your sword and kill your companions with it and then he called for everyone to prove their Valour (Fear test), I can see a player invoking his Fierce Trait for an Automatic action. All his companions, however, would still be required to make the Fear test or suffer the penalty of not being able to invoke Attribute bonus as long as they remain in the creature's presence.

I'm going to disagree on this again and point out that you may invoke a Trait to gain an ordinary success on an action that could have had dramatically relevant consequences, as demonstrated in AB p. 95, where Rose uses Keen-eyed to spot the tracks of enemies waiting in ambush.

To answer the question, let's look at the three uses of Traits:

Automatic Actions: "When a player is using one of the Common skills to make a roll..."

Unforseen Actions: "If the invocation is judged favourably, the Loremaster interrupts the narration to allow a standard action attempt." Obviously, the "standard action attempt" doesn't refer to Tests, because the Loremaster requires these of players; players don't ask for them. It thus refers to Tasks, but there is no explicit limit on which abilities may be used for Tasks—see AB p. 149.

Advancement Points: Naturally, you cannot acquire Advancement Points for anything but Common Skills.

So it might be possible to allow a Trait to invoke a Task using something other than a Common Skill in the case of an Unforseen Action. You might make a case for using a Weapon Skill. However, I think it very unlikely you could convince the Loremaster that you can turn a Wisdom or Valour roll into an Action. They're really just for Tests.

Hi Stormcrow. I just want to understand your comments further, so I have a couple of questions.

Are you disagreeing with the rulebook based on the example given in the rulebook? Maybe the writers felt that if players tried making a Hunting roll, it would have been easy to spot the tracks. So, allowing an Automatic action was appropriate. Or maybe the ambushing Orc isn't that powerful, so it wasn't dramatically relevant either.

And, to be clear, are you saying that Wisdom and Valour Tests are not actions by definition? Therefore, invoking a Trait with them is inappropriate?

Greeting All,

I want to chime in here becasue I use to say that Traits could not be involed that dramatically influence the narrative.

However, my position is a little different now. First, I would say the rules are ambiguous. Add to that, I think they are ambiguous for good reason. Both positions could prevail depending upon the LMs interprestation. This is important I think to allow the LM latitude. Allow me to quote what changed my thinking. And, let me say I didn't connect this passage to this topic of Trait invocation until my third read through the rules. In the LMB beginning on page 27, "Resolving Tests" provides an example:

"Lifstan and Caranthir are marching on a path leading north from Beorn’s House. When they finally approach a small patch of oak trees, the Loremaster announces that both adventurers must make an Awareness test."

Continuing on the next page,

"The Loremaster called for an Awareness test because a tree spirit is awakening in the oak grove that the characters are passing by. On a successful roll, characters feel invigorated by the barely audible musical singing (and gain a Hope point); on a failure, they perceive the tree-song as an eerie, sinister lament."

Concluding,

"Since it is a quiet, unremarkable day as far as visibility and hearing are concerned, the difficulty for the Awareness test is set at the usual TN 14."

And,

"Caranthir’s player has it easy, as the elf is ‘quick of hearing’. The Trait is deemed appropriate and the test results in an automatic success."

The implication is that Caranthir's player invoked the Trait and was awarded with an Automatic Success. Consequently, Caranthir gained one (1) Hope point without a roll. Is this of dramatic consequence. That's for the inidividual LM to interpret in my opinion. However, it does illustrate a case in the rules where a Trait can be invoked with substantive consequences. In this case, it is regaining a point of spent Hope. Another point that struck me in this example. The Trait invocation supported a Test not a Task. However, the Test was associated with a Common Skill as opposed to Wisdom or Valour.

Opinions...?

Regards,
E

I disagreed with what you said regarding Automatic Actions, not with the rule book. Automatic Actions allow a player to gain an automatic normal success on a roll with consequences (the first example) or to speed play by granting an automatic normal success on a roll without consequences (the second example). The action does not have to be without dramatic consequences to invoke a Trait for an Automatic Action.

I am not saying that Wisdom and Valour Tests are not actions; I'm saying Unforseen Actions won't apply to Tests because Unforseen Actions are about the player interrupting the Loremaster to perform an otherwise disallowed Task. You don't ask the Loremaster for Tests. The question then becomes, can you perform a Task based on Wisdom or Valour. The book has anything to say on this (it just uses the word Abilities and doesn't exactly delineate what these are), so the Loremaster will have to decide.

In any case, if you have to perform a Wisdom or Valour Test and you have a trait you believe is relevant, and the Loremaster agrees, then you should certainly be able to get an Automatic Action with it. You just can't use it to get Unforseen Actions or Advancement Points.

"Actions" are Tasks and Tests. The entire section explaining the three methods of invoking Traits refers to Actions or "rolls," not Tests or Tasks.

I agree 100% with your post, E. And I see that as quite a valid use for a Trait - Regardless of Test or Task.

I also believe that use of Traits in Valor or Wisdom tests should not be allowed or at least heavily guarded against.

The one use of a Trait that is chapping my hide is a particular Beorning in my game who uses his "HARDY" trait whenever there's a Fatigue Test (Travel skill). There are several such tests each game, and with each one he wants to invoke this Trait - he never fears failing; worse, I think when you do such a thing, you're suppose to be awarded an Advancement Point. I wonder if this is too lucrative a situation to be in.

SK, here's a thought. I hesitate to allow a Trait invocation for Fear or Corruption Tests as well. Though these are Tests--reactive Actions--with an associated attribute similar to Weapon and Common skills, they're special in my opinion and that should be duly noted.

However, I'm a sucker for good story-telling. One of my players tried to invoke Hardened to pass a Corruption Test. The exchange went something like this, "I'm hardened therefore..." yeah, no, I told him, that does't work. After the session I detailed why.

A few sessions later, their Fellowship enters a Woodmen village recently massacred. This hardened player-hero is the Feloowship scout. After a successful roll he realizes something's not quite right ahead on the trail. He signals the rest of the Fellowhip and ventures further ahead to investigate. He is the first one to come into the village and witness the carnage. The anguish pierces his spirit more surely than any Orc arrow ever could. Time for the Corruption Test, I call for it and he responds. "Having been hardened by witnessing too many villages on the outskirts of our territory subjected to such senseless killing, I wrestle with the anguish but it only hardens my resolve to ward my folk from the Shadow." He follows this little narration with the statement, "I would like to invoke Hardened to pass the Corruption Test." What to do...? Actually for me this is a no-brainer on the first invocation. Next time I shall be more creative with the scene to challenge his narrative abilities. But, at the end of the day, I always fall for a good story!

Thinking of stormcrow's last response, I agree with his assessment. TOR offers a mechanic for proactive Tasks and reactive Tests; that is, intentional action and an action in response to something both have a mechanic for determining an outcome. Action and -active are cognate, so invoking a Trait to influence the outcome of an action applies to both Tasks and Tests in my opinion. As I said earlier, Corruption and Fear Tests are just that - tests. Though, they use Valour and Wisdom instead of a skill, they should be treated still as actions. However, these are the Enemy's main weapons, at least in my campaign. Combat plays the lesser role, especially given this time period where open war has yet to happen. My player-heroes deal with the after affects of combat as much as becoming involved in the actual fighting. This allows to use Anguish as an affective weapon of the Enemy. With Corruption and Fear Tests so central to the drama, Trait invocation should be treated cautiously by any LM in my opinion.

Regards,
E

I don't think you can get Advancement Points when you invoke Automatic Actions. You may choose one or the other: take an Automatic Action and get a regular success, or roll a success and take an Advancement Point.

I would allow your Hardy Beorning to take Automatic Actions for his Travel Tests. Why not? He's Hardy; that's what it means. Ordinary travel will not fatigue him. But if he decides to roll instead of taking an Automatic Action, he might succeed and get an Advancement Point, or he might fail and get Fatigue.

In the game I was playing, my hobbit was Merry (that is, he had the Merry Trait). I invoked this trait when the Loremaster called for Corruption Tests due to the oppressive nature of Mirkwood, and took an Automatic Action, and hence an automatic normal success. And it made sense: even the dark atmosphere of Mirkwood would not depress him. On the other hand, when rolling a Corruption Test due to contact with a great treasure tainted with Dragon-sickness, the Merry Trait did not apply.

Of course, if a player is looking for something better than an automatic normal success (which, after all, counts as just barely succeeding), he'll have to roll.

I think we agree on this issue then. I don't think we even had a disagreement in the first place.

The rulebook says, The Loremaster may agree with a Trait invocation to speed up play, especially if failing at the roll would not lead to dramatically relevant consequences, or if the action wasn’t difficult. The word 'especially' is NOT the same as the word 'only.' I wasn't trying to say 'only,' in my post, I was just pointing out the principle that it is especially appropriate to invoke a Trait if failing at the roll would not lead to dramatically relevant consequences.

Thanks for the discussion everyone.

When it comes down to it, I really like how traits can be used to merge characters into the roleplaying. That is, how the player must explain how a characters Merry trait made them pass that corruption test. You kind of lose that with the automatic success use of traits, you get it more with the advancment use of the trait.

Traits giving automatic success on some of the tests, like fear, protection and corruption might be unbalanced, but gaining advancments isn't unbalanced. It feels like a waste you can't get them by adding some roleplaying to these tests.

Rather than linking, I'm bumping this and another thread to help answer questions in the current thread of 'Traits and Automatic Success'.