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Glorfindel |
Posted: Feb 20 2013, 08:50 PM
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Group: Members Posts: 267 Member No.: 2208 Joined: 6-December 11 |
Player heroes, being heroic characters, will travel wherever they want.
But how do Dwarves and common men cross the Forest? Is the north road at the feet of the Grey Mountain the main "highway" to travel west? I understand that the point is that people do not cross the forest; but some must do. Hobbits and Woodsmen characters need to get to Dale and Esgaroth somehow, as these are often the starting point for adventures. Or if the game starts in the Vale of Anduin, Bardish(?) and Dwarven characters must have gotten there in the first place. |
Poosticks7 |
Posted: Feb 21 2013, 09:14 AM
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Group: Members Posts: 302 Member No.: 2637 Joined: 30-April 12 |
Well I would say the most travelled routes for trade caravans and the like would be:
1. The route north of the forest. Although attacks from orcs from the Grey Mountains would likely be a concern. 2. The Elven Path, although this would likely be taken by only the fool hardy, large groups or those with fair relations with the elves. 3. THe Old Forest Road, this would be a very dangerous route to take and would be shunned. 4. The southern route around the forest would be just as dangerous as the Old Forest Road. Too close to Dol Guldur. Of course these may vary at different times (perhaps as a result of your players actions). -------------------- |
Rich H |
Posted: Feb 21 2013, 09:24 AM
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Group: Members Posts: 882 Member No.: 2664 Joined: 15-May 12 |
Great summary by Poosticks, there. I think it illustrates clearly why the area is called the Wilderlands! It's a dangerous place and Mirkwood more so - a physical wedge between the various commuties of the free peoples' in the area. I certainly play it as such.
-------------------- 1) The Fellowship of the Free - a TOR Actual Play thread: http://cubicle7.clicdev.com/f/index.php?tr...&showtopic=3424
2) Three's Company - a TOR Hobbit-only Actual Play thread: http://cubicle7.clicdev.com/f/index.php?tr...&showtopic=4081 3) A collection of additional and house rules for TOR: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/79541775/Additiona...use%20Rules.pdf 4) Alternate Journey rules: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/79541775/Rules%20-...ney%20Rules.pdf 5) Anyone for Hobbit Cricket? If so, check out my rules here: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/79541775/Hobbit%20Cricket.pdf 6) Keep those TOR character sheets clean, use this Scratch Sheet instead: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/79541775/Player%20...tch%20Sheet.pdf 7) TOR Character Sheet (use with Scratch Sheet): https://dl.dropbox.com/u/79541775/Player%20...Friendly%29.pdf 8) TOR Tale of Years Sheet: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/79541775/Player%20...Friendly%29.pdf 9) Adventure - To Journey's End and the Eagles' Eyrie: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/79541775/To%20Jour...%27%20Eyrie.pdf 10) Adventure - Dawn Comes Early: ... Coming Soon! |
Glorfindel |
Posted: Feb 21 2013, 11:25 AM
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Group: Members Posts: 267 Member No.: 2208 Joined: 6-December 11 |
And so do I. Mirkwood is undeniably a significant barrier between the the Vale of Anduin and the shores of the River Running; but some people, not only the player heroes, must get across from times to times. The Dwarves are said to travel between their colonies in the Blue Mountains and the Iron Hills; somehow they must go across (or around) Mirkwood. In the Lord of the Rings, it is mentioned that the Beornings take a heavy toll at the ford of the Carrock, but from whom? Unlikely to be from the Woodsmen, so it got to be from the Dwarves or Bardings/Men of the Lake. They too would have to go through or around Mirkwook somehow. And that's for those who continued past the vale... A common suggestion for Hobbit adventurers (in Dale or Esgaroth) is that they came along a caravan; but where would that caravan go? There's a similar situation with Woodsmen characters. Such a character starting in Esgaroth to play The Marsh Bell must have gotten there in the first place. He/she is unlikely to have dome that journey alone in these dangerous part of the world, so he/she must have had companions; NPCS or common folk. So which road should these common folk take? My guess would be the north road which Bilbo took on the way back home, but would it be common/used enough to feature tracks, trails, marker and such. Ramps of stone for carts and log-bridges over brooks and gullies? Are the Elves friendly enough to allow passage on their path? What do they do when they find out that someone has been using it from the west end? I can see how both the Lothlorien and Dol Guldur would scare anyone off the southern road, but are the rivers navigable? It is hinted that the Celduin sees a certain traffic, but what about the Anduin? It once was a major trade route, would the infrastructure (like the lasting crossing of Celduin) still allow commerce along that way? |
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Rich H |
Posted: Feb 21 2013, 12:13 PM
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Group: Members Posts: 882 Member No.: 2664 Joined: 15-May 12 |
That's a good question and one that's resolution didn't sit well with me when I was beginning my campaign. My game is made up of an Elf, Woodman, Dwarf, and Barding so I began in Esgaroth BUT the player whose PC was the Woodman was on holiday so he met the other PCs on the western side of Mirkwood as part of a larger Woodman patrol. If they'd have all been available to play at the start then I may have run a solo-background session to get them all in the same place as I do think travelling across Mirkwood (or by another road) for the first time in order to navigate Wilderland is significant for any character and would be nice to address 'on camera' - and he would have been part of some larger group. -------------------- 1) The Fellowship of the Free - a TOR Actual Play thread: http://cubicle7.clicdev.com/f/index.php?tr...&showtopic=3424
2) Three's Company - a TOR Hobbit-only Actual Play thread: http://cubicle7.clicdev.com/f/index.php?tr...&showtopic=4081 3) A collection of additional and house rules for TOR: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/79541775/Additiona...use%20Rules.pdf 4) Alternate Journey rules: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/79541775/Rules%20-...ney%20Rules.pdf 5) Anyone for Hobbit Cricket? If so, check out my rules here: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/79541775/Hobbit%20Cricket.pdf 6) Keep those TOR character sheets clean, use this Scratch Sheet instead: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/79541775/Player%20...tch%20Sheet.pdf 7) TOR Character Sheet (use with Scratch Sheet): https://dl.dropbox.com/u/79541775/Player%20...Friendly%29.pdf 8) TOR Tale of Years Sheet: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/79541775/Player%20...Friendly%29.pdf 9) Adventure - To Journey's End and the Eagles' Eyrie: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/79541775/To%20Jour...%27%20Eyrie.pdf 10) Adventure - Dawn Comes Early: ... Coming Soon! |
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Mim |
Posted: Feb 21 2013, 01:50 PM
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Group: Members Posts: 372 Member No.: 2116 Joined: 7-November 11 |
Glorfindel, I've always interpretated it as you mention here:
"My guess would be the north road which Bilbo took on the way back home, but would it be common/used enough to feature tracks, trails, marker and such. Ramps of stone for carts and log-bridges over brooks and gullies? Are the Elves friendly enough to allow passage on their path? What do they do when they find out that someone has been using it from the west end?" Remember Gandalf's admonition about avoiding the foothills because they were "infested." I presume that the track ran at times along the northern skirts of the forest. You summarize it well by adding the limited trail markers, bridges, et al. You can have your companions meet the rare woodcutter or tracker who knows the area - if they need a guide - or have them fall in with a caravan. That said, however, a number of references seem to indicate that few people traveled along the Great East Road or the elf-road because of the perils, though the Wood-elves might have interferred with the latter. Note the passage in A Warm Welcome where Bilbo learned that the elf-road "...came to a doubtful and little used end at the eastern edge of the forest; only the river offered any longer a safe way..." You can probably imagine the same result for the Great East Road because of the spread of the Long Marshes (notice how ToR somewhat expanded the area covered). Francesco envisioned the road opened for travel westward in The Marsh Dwellers, so perhaps some enterprising sorts work on opening it. This allows for possibilities for your heroes as scouts or guides, caravan guards, explorers, etc. Finally, the trip skirting Dagorlad & around Dol Guldur, well, it smacks of a TPK If you nonetheless decide on it, there's some great data on passing through the area of SW Mirkwood in Unfinished Tales - the ride of Eorl. |
Poosticks7 |
Posted: Feb 21 2013, 02:15 PM
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Group: Members Posts: 302 Member No.: 2637 Joined: 30-April 12 |
Just thought I'd mention a few things from the TOR book.
...the Goblins are afraid to leave their mountain holds. We have every reason to look forward to a new age of prosperity! Balin's letter to Bilbo p4 From the cloud-shrouded peaks above the High Pass to the spider-infested gloom of the forest of Mirkwood, paths long-deserted are trodden once again. busy merchants carry their wares to new markets, messengers bring tidings from foreign realms and kings send forth armed men to extend their influence and the rule of law. p5 So there must be caravans of merchants making their way between settlements. I think they would br fairly rare and probably travel in larger companies than Baldor and his son did in Don't Leave the Path. -------------------- |
Halbarad |
Posted: Feb 21 2013, 02:53 PM
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Group: Members Posts: 641 Member No.: 2053 Joined: 24-October 11 |
At the end of the Hobbit, it is mentioned that men came from the south and west to populate the new Kingdom of Dale. I think that suggests that a portion of the Dalefolk in exile lived along the narrow region between the Woodland realm and the Grey Mountains, perhaps even a number in the regions that would eventually be the land of the Beornings.
I would say that small villages, few of any real size, are located along a trade route to the north of Mirkwood. Most of these are probably reliant upon the good will of the Elf King for their security. Why were they not sacked when Bolg brought his army to Erebor? My thoughts are that the Goblin Warlord did not want word of his coming to reach Erebor before he did. His horde actively avoided any contact with these little settlements. They would be pillaged at leisure after the main prize was won. |
Mim |
Posted: Feb 21 2013, 03:16 PM
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Group: Members Posts: 372 Member No.: 2116 Joined: 7-November 11 |
Yes, ToR emphasizes the time of hope & renewal following the Battle of Five Armies & the death of Smaug. I especially love the concept of the feast celebrating the victory. I was just pointing out that it's not called Wilderland for naught
Speaking of which, I'm curious to see how The Darkening of Mirkwood spins this - the spread of the Shadow when so many people believe that brighter times lie ahead. This should be a cool twist. |
Mim |
Posted: Feb 22 2013, 08:06 AM
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Group: Members Posts: 372 Member No.: 2116 Joined: 7-November 11 |
@Halbarad, I've been mulling over what you posted & on second thought I agree about the Orcs avoiding the steads along the northern route around Mirkwood. It makes a great excuse to place some there if an LM needs them for an adventure. You can still emphasize the whole settlers living precariously on the edge of the frontier theme - thus requiring the heroes for their protection.
Concerning the movement of the men northward into Mirkwood & the Vales of Anduin, you raise a valid point about those who may have remained behind. Tolkien wrote about the Northmen earlier in the T.A., but almost nothing thereafter, so it's anyone's guess. You could easily integrate some of their steads around Dorwinion or southward toward Dagorlad to ally with/fight against (depending on your scenario) your Horsefolk. BTW, for my own game, I've used the passages from Unfinished Tales concerning the Wainriders & their enslavement of the Northmen (who rose against them) for inspiration for a similar theme during the War of the Ring. The descendents of the Balchoth are some of the people who form the Easterlings who march for Sauron, & following the war, their slaves rise against them. Now, if only they had some heroes to rally them... |
Venger |
Posted: Feb 22 2013, 12:21 PM
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Group: Members Posts: 234 Member No.: 1809 Joined: 15-August 11 |
This topic is a conundrum we struggled with for years. Prosperous times implies a measure of safety.
I remember reading somewhere quite some time ago that "a pass" over the Misty Mountains was opened by Beornings not long after the Batttle of Five armies. I never could verify exactly what pass though. For ICE MERP we assumed the Men-I-Naugrim continued west from Old Ford and a branch entered the Misty Mountains at some point but we were just playing it by ear and I can't quote canon to back it up. For traversing Mirkwood I agree the Men-I-Naugrim was too hazardous even after The Hobbit, and either the North Road or the Forest Road through Thranduil's kingdom were safe enough to travel though I always assumed the Elves might bedevil certain travelers if they didn't like their look and strayed from certain trails and snooped around too much. -------------------- You never know how Bright you are until you have met True Darkness
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Mim |
Posted: Feb 22 2013, 02:29 PM
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Group: Members Posts: 372 Member No.: 2116 Joined: 7-November 11 |
You're probably thinking of the Cirith Forn en Andrath (the High-climbing Pass of the North), usually referred to as the High Pass.
This is the one that Gloin discussed at Rivendell - those Beornings are reliable sorts, but their tolls, well, what can you do? |
SirKicley |
Posted: Feb 22 2013, 03:02 PM
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Group: Members Posts: 608 Member No.: 2191 Joined: 28-November 11 |
Why didn't they just take the interstate?
-------------------- Robert
AKA - Shandralyn Shieldmaiden; Warden of Rohan LOTRO - Crickhollow Server Kinleader: Pathfinders of the Rohirrim "All we have to decide is what to do with the time that has been given to us." |
Glorfindel |
Posted: Feb 22 2013, 03:08 PM
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Group: Members Posts: 267 Member No.: 2208 Joined: 6-December 11 |
Because the Eagles are a proud race, not to be summoned at a whim... |
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tkdco2 |
Posted: Feb 22 2013, 05:04 PM
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Group: member Posts: 223 Member No.: 2473 Joined: 21-February 12 |
Besides, Dwarves and Hobbits move too slowly to go on the fast lane.
-------------------- Riding the cold wind to Valhalla
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Mordagnir |
Posted: Feb 23 2013, 04:58 AM
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Group: Members Posts: 124 Member No.: 2516 Joined: 10-March 12 |
One of the themes I really want to explore in a future TOR campaign is the evolution and growth of Dale.
By the War of the Ring, the Kingdom of Dale stretches to the Redwater (citation needed). However, beyond that, we don't really know what it looks like geographically or politically. If Dale extends so far east, we can imagine it exercising some sort of influence or control westward as well, either unilaterally or in conjunction with Thranduil's kingdom. To promote trade, I suspect there would be a very active presence along the north edge of Mirkwood beginning no later than 2946. This presence would only grow with the passage of years as communities rose to provide services to travelers and the Bardings and/or Elves took measures to provide security. With the reoccupation of Dol Guldur, the imperative to maintain this northern route would only grow. Routes south of Mirkwood and through Mirkwood would both become more dangerous. At the same time, commerce and other contacts in western Middle-earth would be growing. In FELLOWSHIP OF THE RING, Aragorn alludes to regular traffic on the Anduin within his lifetime (citation needed). Presumably, this traffic consists of not only merchants, but also of colonists and refugees (some of whom will settle amongst the Woodmen and Beornings, of course, while others will be attracted by tales of Dale and Laketown). To sustain growth, Dale needs these people. Growing commerce with Eriador (Men, Dwarves, and perhaps even Elves) would also be a factor. So, as background, we should imagine an organized presence on the northern route throughout the Adventures in Wilderland timeframe. Just as importantly, the need to explore this area and protect settlements and travelers can provide some very useful material for loremasters. Anyway, just my two cents. |