Howdy, all.

It's pretty clear how the Weary condition works and how it triggers. The States of Health section on page 142 of the Adventurer's Book carefully distinguishes betweens the two different methods of becoming Weary (loss of Endurance vs. other, temporary effects) even going so far as to use to different symbols in the Weary "box" to help keep them separate.

It also includes the following:

So, my question: is resting the only method of removing the Weary condition that has been gained in this manner? More specifically, can the Rally Comrades action remove the Weary condition?

O

AFAIK, any time your END <= FATIGUE you are weary, otherwise you are not, unless it was caused by a temporary condition (hence the different symbols). Makes it much easier to keep track of it.

If your Endurance is raised from below to above your Fatigue/Encumbrance threshold then you are still Wearied UNTIL you take a long rest (eg, a night's sleep).

Obviously, if your Endurance is below this threshold the you're still Wearied.

Hm, really? I've missed that then...

Yes.

"... the hero suffers the consequences of being Weary until properly rested (see Resting on page 145)."

And...

"A weary adventurer whose Endurance score is higher than his Fatigue rating after a night’s sleep or comparable rest is now properly rested.

A character who was Weary before he rested may now uncheck the Weary label on his character sheet."

I don't think so. I certainly wouldn't allow it to.

Thanks, that's how I ruled, as well. Certainly that's the answer based on RAW. I was just trying to get a sense if others felt that was in line with the intended spirit of the rules.

I mean, I can certainly see someone wiping the sweat from his brow and, with renewed vigor, throwing himself back into the fight after a truly inspirational speech, but that doesn't mean necessarily that he wouldn't still be Weary. He just would be able to withstand slightly more beating before falling unconscious.

O

PS It seems clear that this reduces the benefits of Rally Comrades significantly. Are there thoughts about this? I sometimes feel that all the Combat Actions are fairly weak.

Our PCs would have spent most of their time Weary then, since it's usually only one or two hits to knock someone below their threshold. Would make a big difference

Exactly! This is why all armour has to be chosen wisely and it's very much worth taking knockback to reduce endurance damage taken.

Most of my group try to leave their fatigue at least 10 points below their max endurance, usually more.

Me too. That makes a BIG difference and my group has been playing it wrong. Most of the time, our group gets knocked down just far enough that Rally Comrades and or the "Recovery" rest (Heart Endurance) is enough to get them over their fatigue threshold. But since that doesn't remove Weary in and of itself....

Players meet your new best friend: Defensive Stance.

This just gave me a great idea for 2 new homebrew things.

Generic Reward: Healing Draught. After a battle in which you were made weary, if you're endurance is higher than your fatigue, you can drink one of your Healing Draughts. You then remove your Weary condition without needing to take a prolonged rest. You can drink a Healing Draught once per day, and you are assumed to know the right recipe of herbs, water, minerals, etc. to be able to craft these on the fly.

Generic Virtue: Song of War. If you use the "Rally Comrades" ability by invoking your "Song" skill and score a Great or Extraordinary Success, you not only heal endurance damage, but you also remove their Weary condition if their Endurance point gain takes them over their Fatigue threshold.

I would not be against this:

Rally Comrade: An alternate use of this Combat Action would allow upon a success, for one companion to ignore the effects of being Weary for 1 round; 2 rounds with a Greater Success, and 3 for an Extraordinary Success.


(Ideally after the inspiring speech/song, the recipient is re-invigorated with hope and adrenalin, wipes his brow and throws himself back into the fray with vigor -- but which will quickly wears off).

Like the Healing Draught idea. If used sparingly.

I would not want to turn TOR into D&D with prevalent healing. I like that when one has become Weary, it really is a downtrodden situation - it makes the game grittier, and more believable.

As for the Rally Comrade; I would be more in favor of an either/or use of Rally Comrade - (see my earlier post) as opposed to doubling up on rewards. I believe one already benefits from more healing with a great/extraordinary success when using that ability.

RE: Healing Draught

Miruvor cordial and the other orcish stuff immediately comes to mind.

I'm not sure if I would allow the player to know the recipie, but if so, I think it should be a Virtue that can be crafted/brewed during Felllowship phase like Twice Bake Honey Cake.

I'm not in favor of them "Knowing the recipe" so that others can benefit from it or so they can sell it.

However, if it's a "reward", then it should be a permanent item, even if it has a daily use.

The capability of a character to remove the Wearied state from others strikes me as being very much in the purvue of Virtues so I'd go with something that uses that part of the rules.

Even if only for a round or two as I suggested - being inspired temporarily?


I do agree being able to provide a "cure" for the condition would be no less than a Virtue.

That's just not something I'd allow in my game.

I didn't understand very well the difference between of being temporally weary and being really weary to point a hero needs to take a long rest (all night).

In the Adventure's book I understood that after a combat the hero is temporally wearied, is that right? So when does the hero is really really weary?

I'm assuming you're asking about the rules as written, rather than some of the house ruling being discussed here? If so, as Ormazd said in the initial post, AB pg142 says that when a hero's Endurance score is equal to or lower than his Fatigue rating as a result of Endurance loss they are Weary. When this happens, the hero only recovers from that condition when his Endurance is once again higher than his fatigue and he has taken a prolonged rest (e.g. a night's sleep).

Temporary weariness only results from "other sources of strain" (i.e. not Endurance loss - e.g. Scanty Provisions on LB pg36). In this case, when the circumstances causing the temporary weariness pass the condition is simply erased.

Hope that's clear.

This may be a question for another thread but it's related so I thought I'd ask it here; hope the OP (Ormazd) doesn't mind

Do you guys play that the "prolonged rest (e.g. a night's sleep)" required to recover from being Wearied is only at a "safe" (e.g. town, inn, homestead, whatever) or does a night camped out on the trail count?

I play that a prolonged rest can take place just about anywhere, so character can heal from being Weary fairly easily ... but the night's rest that is necessary to remove a point of temporary Fatigue has to take place at a relatively safe place (where no one needs to keep watch, etc.).

O

In fact, I do exactly that. Resting on a bed of rocks and roots does not enable full endurance recovery or a proper prolonged rest. Sometimes, if a player makes an Explore roll with Great or Extraordinary success, I'll rule that they find a comfortable, warm cave with clean water. And in those cases, I'll allow it. But I like to keep those instances few and far between. I *want* my players to feel the tedium and inconvenience of prolonged travel.

You're possibly getting that mixed up with the restoration of FATIGUE points. Here are the official rules on recovery of different aspects of the game.


1_) To restore Endurance after a combat (usually 2 points), you take a 30 minute sitdown rest. This is also when a characters is described as "temporarily weary".

2_) To restore Endurance after a days hike (usually 2 plus Heart), you take a full nights rest - assumed fine even during a journey.

3_) To recover WEARY condition, they must rest a full night - same as #2.

3_) To restore accumulated FATIGUE points, you must rest in a comfortable and safe locale (typically NOT on the road).

5) To recover Shadow points, you need to rest in a friendly place during a Fellowship Phase and used some sort of Song or Craft skill.

6) To recover Hope points - you gain one IF your fellowship focus isn't wounded, and/or you can replace them via leftovers from the hope point pool you have at each game-day. Other than that, you're pretty much at the whim of the LM whenever he feels you experience something truly uplifting.

7_) To recover a WOUND, you must have restored ALL lost Endurance in one of the ways described above or some other Inspire or something during the game.

To restrict restored Endurance only to a safe locale REALLY hamstrings the player heroes in my opinion. But each to their own. If someone is wanting a much more grittier game and harder go at it, and it works for them - more power to them. My opinion is it is too restrictive.

@SirKicley - Thanks, I did understand the various differences and was asking specifically about recovering from an extant WEARY condition if a hero's END is greater than their fatigue.

That's a useful break-down, though on your 1), don't heroes recover their "Heart in END" 30 mins after a combat, as per AB pg144?

The question of what is or isn't a "full night's rest" (e.g. What count's as "full" - with or without watches? What counts as "rest" - on the trail or in a safe place?) has come up in my game because a couple of heroes were reduced to WEARY during combat, then recovered Heart END due to the 30 min post-combat recovery but are still WEARY until they get a "full night's rest." I felt what a "full night's rest" was is open to interpretation in the RAW and wondered how people were playing it, as well as what impact their interpretation has had on play? In answers so far, it seems, broadly speaking, that you and Ormazd favour the "anywhere" approach and Rocmistro favours the "safe place" approach, which is interesting.

@Ormazd and Rocmistro - Thanks for the answers guys. Very interesting.

[Edit: wrote Hope when I meant Heart - fixed]

if one becomes weary and then takes his 30 min break after combat and the two gained endurance points would have taken total END higher than fatigue rating then they are still WEARY.


When the hero has his endurance higher than fatigue and has a full nights rest he removes the weary condition. said sleep can be in a safe place or on the road with a shift of watches.

the LM can make spot rulings if he feels something happened during the night that would prevent ample enough sleep: a combat or a storm w/o ample shelter, shadow lands etc. but hes just as likely to assign a fatigue point instead.

Agreed, other than as I stated above, shouldn't this be Heart in endurance points rather than two endurance points? The Recovery section on AB pg144 says:

Just to clarify for my benefit, the "sleep can be in a safe place or on the road with a shift of watches" bit of your response is your interpretation, it's not specifically stated somewhere in the RAW that I've missed? Is that correct? Thanks.

youre right. qty equal to heart (not two).


as for your clarification i would say that its probably more a case of intended rules by inferrence.
the book specifically says that you need rest such as a full nights rest. Elsewhere in the book it says to recover from fatigue you need to have a full nights rest albeit it specifically stipulates this must be done in a safe locale.


im confident that theres a deliberate distinction since care was taken to stipulate as such to one but not both

So here is my basic problem with this....Endurance is recovered daily, but Journey's are usually resolved (and rolled on) on a 4, 5 or 6 day basis (none of my players have adventured in the winter).

So that means any Endurance Damage that is taken, as the result of harsh conditions, off-camera combats, falling rocks, blood-drinking thorn hedges, etc. etc., will most likely be healed by the time the next Journey event (aka, a triggered hazard) comes up.

For me, it's just an unnecessary bookkeeping burden to say that "Well on week 2 of your journey, you slip on rocks and roll down a rocky ledge, taking 5 endurance damage. However, since you heal 2+heart (usually that means at least 5 and typically closer to 7) per night of sleeping, it really doesn't affect you because you are completely healed by the next day, let alone the next travel check."

*I*, as LM, don't particularly like that interpretation. I'd rather that the players get nicked and cut and bruised in smaller amounts during travelling, but arrive at their destination down a few endurance points.

I can see your point. There are many different playstyles and preferences that fit and cater to individualistic views. I was merely putting the info out that is the rules as they were intended - at least according to the general consensus. What you say has a lot of merit and makes good sense - what is the point? The nicks, cuts, bruises, and scrapes rarely if ever make any mechanical difference to the game by the time the next sleep is done and the points return. Of course not everyone has a high heart rating.

For me - what you proclaim as a problem, I do not see as all that problematic.

A good point to be made is: what is the point of tracking the four points of endurance damage when you stumble on some rocks during a Hazard???

They could have already had a combat earlier that day and still suffering from some damage; those four points may put them over the Fatigue Threshold.

Or reverse the order. Say a person is then already nicked from a fall or something, if/when some sort of combat occurs later that day - or even during the night that night. I'm notorious when GMing a game for ensuring that the planned encounter usually occurs concurrently or back to back of some other mishap.

For instance: An unforeseen hazard causes two of characters to stumble (via failed skill check or whatever) and tumbled down a rocky dirt trail into a small ravine. They've taken 4 Endurance Damage.

I already had an encounter planned with a pack of goblins and a warg.

Chances are those two tumbled characters have stumbled into the den or otherwise near proximity of the encounter I had planned. Now those 4 points of Endurance damage are vitally important, while the other characters have to carefully pick their way down the side of the small cliff to reach their hapless friends.

One point made in the Dont Leave The Path quest in Tales of Wilderland is to combine hazards; instead spreading them out - have three happen at once: a massive storm breaks, which cases a mudslide, and a tree uproots and branches fall on the characters.......

This makes for much more impact by the hazards and the Endurance point loss that is suffered if/when combats are on the same day or when the LM feels that a full night's worth of sleep is not a luxury this day due to various circumstances. (i.e. weather, proximity of the enemy that they can hear and are on edge all night, in the middle of shadow lands that is tearing at their spirits, scout of the party fails to find a suitable campsite. etc)



The point is - I feel it's safe to say that though you make a valid point that applies to a number of such incidents, there also plenty of room to make it a non-issue.

I'd definitely allow players to lift the Weary condition after a full night's rest on the road. Otherwise the specification of 'safe place' for Fatigue doesn't make much sense.

Is there any chance someone could point me at the page number in the rulebooks that people are mentioning, which specifies that "to restore accumulated FATIGUE points, you must rest in a comfortable and safe locale"? As usual with TOR, I can't seem to find it! Many thanks.

Fictionaut, if I remember correctly, that rule doesn't appear in the rulebooks at all. I believe the developers released it after the fact to address the issue when folks were wondering how Fatigue was reduced.

I believe you'll find the rule if you look in the Sticky thread above about rules updates.

O

Ah! That explains a lot! Many thanks Ormazd. That's really helpful.

not only that - but it just makes sense. Someone who is "fatigued" doesn't get much respite from it if he's forced to sleep in adverse situations. The only way to truly get fully rested after being clinically fatigued is proper R&R.

I find myself unable to resist pointing out that this is exactly the same reasoning Rocmistro gave for only being able to recover from the Weary condition in a "safe place." So perhaps he has a point?

The prolonged rest seems to have multiple effects re. Weary:

It's necessary to shake the condition in the first place.

It gets you back Endurance, which can then rise above your Fatigue score and remove the Weary condition.

It reduces Fatigue if you shed equipment, which can lower it to below Endurance and remove the condition that way.

The last bit is especially odd - if you shed equipment, that only lowers your Fatigue score after a night's rest, except if you remove your helm during combat. Then you get 3 Fatigue back (but you can't shake a Weary condition).

So can I get the same effect by removing my helm at any other time? And if it's an exception, why not have it remove Weary (assuming getting 3 back lowers Fatigue below Endurance), at least for the duration of the combat?

There may be no other reason than it's part of the design for gamists reasons; it just helps things be balanced and playable. If one tries to make sense of every rule of an RPG you'll go stir crazy. Recovering from Weary vs Fatigue may seem a silly separation; but dealing with having to lose 50% of your hard earned success dice for an entire journey is simply too restrictive if you can only repair that condition at the end of a trek.

Besides - recovering Fatigue requiring R&R is not the same as a cut being healed - cells will continue to reproduce and replace shed skin cells, repair bruises, and replace lost blood whether your tired or not. (this is what is represented by lost/gained Endurance points) True if you're not Fatigued the human body (and elf, dwarf and hobbit probably as well) probably replenishes these faster; But then again, if you weren't as Fatigued (have less Fatigue score) you wouldn't have to earn back as many Endurance points (healing cuts and bruises) to remove the Weary condition (brought on by a combination of both being hurt, and schleping around too much gear causing one to be worn out from the road).

So they do piggy back on each other.

In the end, if you have less Fatigue, you don't necessarily HEAL faster (which may or may not be physiologically-corrrect), but you would remove the WEARY condition sooner during the process of recovering from your boo-boos. In-so-doing so it imitates healing faster - which is probably an accurate depiction of anatomy; when you are not as fatigued (or malnourished, or dehydrated, or mentally stressed-out, or broken spirit - all forms of Fatigue), you recover from your injuries faster. (see Chicken Soup for the Soul for silly parable). If properly rested in a comfortable (safe) inn somewhere you could recover both Fatigue AND Endurance (exhaustion and injuries) nicely enough and prevent becoming Weary as quickly the next day due to the renewed vigor you feel by removing the dreaded Fatigue you felt two days ago (lowered Fatigue score takes longer to become Weary if you're hurt again the next day from combat/hazards), proving that you stay healthier longer (non-Weary), when you're not Fatigued or exhausted.

That's all I got. You don't have to agree that's what makes RPGs so great - they can have a multitude of answers and GMs can custom the rules, or their interpretations based on their own style preferences. This is how I would rationalize it and it makes sense to me. The rules as written (either in the LMB or the online FAQ for recovering Fatigue that Francesco posted) make enough sense to me that I can abide by them and respect them, and suspend disbelief for any part of it that may not be perfectly sensible, as I know sometimes game balance has to be a concern.

On the other subject: the removing a helmet is not only a gamist - number crunching balance; it's also a tribute to an iconic aspect in cinematic viewing or in books narration. Such as when Eowyn reveals herself to Witchking. Or Maximus to the Caesar in the arena, or Leia in Hutt's lair. Removing the helmet during a combat is a storybased cool concept that has been seen over and over, and when one is tiring, it is usually the first thing to be cast aside - plus we get to see the actor's face. :-) Iron Man wouldn't be as cool if he couldn't open the visor so we could see Downey's face or have the HUD view looking at him looking at us.

As for why you don't recover from Weary just by removing the 3 Encumbrance of the helm: once your body hits a level of Fatigue/Exhaustion/Weary - just dropping a backback or something you're carrying wont recovery your condition. It may prevent you from passing out, however. If you think of Fatigue as a abstract condition including aspects of malnourishment, dehydration, battle-fatigue, PTSD, and just exhaustion from over-exertion of your muscles from carrying too much for too long, you may see that once your body biologically slips to this level, it's not just a snap to recover from it. Think of a football player that is fatigued and has to sit out several plays or a quarter - just taking off his helmet does not make him capable to running back out onto the field in tip-top shape. Most players aren't the same in the 4th quarter on Sunday as they were in the 1st. It takes the whole night and Monday off to recover to be ready for practice on Tuesday.

What you say here hits the nail on the head for me SirKicley. I actually feel, purely from my perspective (I'm not trying to sell this to anyone - I'm just discussing it), that my own internal logic favours the only in a "safe place" approach. I say this because, despite your justification of the contrary, it seems odd to me to have FATIGUE only recoverable in a "safe place" but WEARY (a condition resulting from fatigue and/or injury) recoverable "anywhere". However, as you say, is this "too restrictive"? It certainly makes WEARY a much bigger thing. Hence I was wondering if anyone was actually playing it as WEARY only recovers in a "safe place" and, if so, how they were finding it? Rocmistro indicated he was and hadn't suggested it had broken the game for his group, but it seems almost everyone else favours the "anywhere" approach.

@Rocmistro - Any further comments on this?

@Anyone else - Is there anyone else out there who has tried the only in a "safe place" approach? I'd be interested to hear how that works/whether it unbalances things as much as people think it will?

Absolutely. I really like it for this. Though Ovid has a good point about it seeming like an "exception" and there being a question of why can't I drop my shield or something similar in the battle for the same effect? Ultimately, IMHO it's one of those nice little rules in TOR that helps give it the right dramatic flavour even if it doesn't seem entirely consistent.

Um, I wasn't disputing the distinction between Fatigue and the Weary condition. In fact there are three separate things:

the Fatigue threshold, which is what you can lower after a prolonged rest if you shed equipment (or immediately by 3 if you tear off your helm in combat),

the Weary condition, which disappears after prolonged rest if in the meantime your Endurance is higher than your Fatigue threshold, and

Travel Fatigue, which you can lose only in a safe place.

I'm happy imagining the latter as a kind of bone-deep fatigue which doesn't effect you in the moment necessarily, but wears you down over time.

I'm also aware of the scene the helm rule is meant to duplicate. Given the relatively minimal bonus that gives you, I'm not sure that having it apply to shields and/or letting it alleviate the Weary condition at least for the duration of the combat (or until Endurance drops to the new Fatigue level again) is particularly game-breaking and nor does it contradict anything in canon rather than extrapolating it to make analogous moments of awesomeness in battle possible. I mean, it would've been a bit crap if Eowyn had ripped off her helm, challenged the Witch King and then missed.