I'm working on a new background which is a fisher and I would like to have as favourite skill something related to fishing. I know there is the Speciality, but if I require the player to make roll (i.e. fishing in winter or whatever) which skill would be more appropiate?

I was thinking of Hunting, but that's... well that's hunting not fishing.

Suggestions?

The only thing I've seen is the Fishing trait on p. 98 of the AB.

Well, you could have a player roll 'Athletics', but Fishing is less about being strong/fast, than it is about finesse.

Especially in Middle Earth, where one fishes with a wooden rod, some line, and certainly no reel, I think the most relevant skill would be Insight, actually. Or a combination of Insight, Stealth, and Lore (fishing lore that is).

Insight, because you have to know/have a sense of when the fish are biting, and when to set the hook (if you do it too early, the fish won't have bitten properly and will get off... if you do it too late, the fish may have already realized it had a hook in its mouth and spit it out).

Anyone can learn to cast a rod, but knowing how to land the fish is the hard part.
Lore, of course is the next most relevant thing, because you have to know when is the best time to fish, which spot on the bank (or boat), and what kind of bait to use (if you have options).

Stealth, well I guess that's obvious... don't want to scare the fish before you even get a chance to cast, or when you do!

So, if you want to make the check complicated, have them roll Lore for their knowledge of what best to use, stealth for their approach and cast, and insight for the actual fishing...

OK there's a 10 dollar answer for a 5 cent question.

It makes sense. Thanks for the answer!

Hunting's perfectly fine.

Rich H, that's tricky. If you read the description, it has to do with tracking animals, traps and so not just killing them. But a fisher shouldn't know that, so it seems that it doesn't fit.

And it also states "The skill also covers ... the training and use of hunting dogs or birds" and not all hunting characters may know about those things either. If a specific use for a skill doesn't fit your character concept then don't apply it in those ways. Just because a particular character doesn't know everything covered by a skill doesn't invalidate the skill's usage in another valid area, which is what you appear to be implying in your statement above - apologies if that isn't what you meant. Bear in mind that fishermen track and hunt for fish - perhaps not in the way we think with regards to how a deer would be, for instance, but they certainly have methods for hunting their prey, looking for tell tale signs, etc... This really isn't tricky at all. The skills in TOR can have pretty wide applications and can be far reaching. Hunting is primarily about obtaining food by hunting, capturing and killing animals - that's exactly what fishing does. A rod and line or a fishing net is a trap for a fish in the same way that a snare is a trap for a rabbit. Therefore both should use the Hunting skill.

Page 149 of the AB has a list of typical tasks, one of them is "Find food in the Wild", and the skills it states to be used are Explore* or Hunting. Fishing is certainly 'finding food', therefore use Hunting. It really is that simple, there's no need to over-complicate things for such a task.

*I'd personally use Explore when finding food such as berries, fruit, nuts, etc - ie, not for animals - I think the separation of the two skill between foraging for food and hunting live animals is an elegant one.

Personally I'd go with hunting too if it was a simple and relatively unimportant task from the scenario narrative perspective. If the player could come up with a decent rationale for another skill I'd allow it though.

I'm used to more detailes rule-heavy systems, but I guess you have to assume skills are that general, since there are so few. So Hunting would be hunting, fishing, building traps and tracking. I think is consistent with the examples in the rulebook.

Thanks all!

Yeah we had a player in our group who had a Beorning with a high hunting skill but no missile weapon. When we discussed his hunting skill the player said that her character mainly relied on fishing and using snares to catch rabbits and the like.

Seemed to work okay for us.

More importantly, why are you rolling for fishing?

Isn't Fishing where you find all the gold rings?

I've done a Fisher background for the Anduin Hobbits and I want to have a fitting Favoured Skill.

Yes, but why are you rolling for fishing, that it is necessary? What would the Favored Skill bring that the Trait wouldn't?

I'm not trying to be argumentative. It just seems like the trait does everything you need.

I suppose that the background trait allows an automatic success. It could be interpreted that this allows you to catch a fish to feed yourself. If you need to feed your family, your community or your companions you may need to roll.

I'd use Hunting.

Catching Animals in the wild to feed your community would use Hunting. Me personally I wouldn't care if it was animals in water, on land or in the air.

/wolf

You may not have the trait is the simple answer. I suppose there are two prongs to this question:

1) If you're talking about fishermen that fish for themselves and their community, then they would likely have the 'fishing' trait as that's what they do in life.

2) Then there are PCs and NPCs which may not always have an applicable trait but should still have the capability of performing a task, hence the discussion of what skill to use.

Yup. Hunting makes sense to me too.

I see where the you are coming from (although the OP is more focused on the character building aspect), but what I am asking is in what situation would you be making this roll?


Are you looking for food? Hunting does that.

Are you trying to identify fish? Lore does that.

Are you trying to impress people with your awesome fishing skill? Awe does that.


I don't think covering characters without the trait is important. If you don't have the trait, then you are just a passable fisherman (or you can't do it at all). Either way, it's not important to your character.


As far as the OP is concerned, I would just figure out what aspect of Fishing you want to be good at, and favor the skill that does that.

Doc, the OP asked:

"... but if I require the player to make roll (i.e. fishing in winter or whatever) which skill would be more appropiate..."

... And along with his response to me regarding catching fish isn't really hunting (then his later agreement), I think it's pretty obvious he was talking about what skill to use to physically catch fish and he's now happy/content to use Hunting. If he wanted more elements he'd have developed the discussion into those areas and he hasn't. To me (and I guess others based on their responses) he was focussed on what skill to make favoured if he asked such a character to roll for catching fish rather than just invoking the fishing trait. I'm not saying what you've posted above isn't interesting (It is, though I don't agree with some of it), but it isn't really getting to the heart of Arthadan's real issue (which has now been addressed).

For you maybe but it is for others - it was pretty much Arthadan's whole point in posting his query as he initially wasn't happy in using the Hunting skill to catch fish until we provided him with reasons why it could/should be used and then he was okay with it.

... And as Arthadan was asking about what skill to use when catching fish then that's Hunting.

<double post>

Upthread he responded to me:

"I've done a Fisher background for the Anduin Hobbits and I want to have a fitting Favoured Skill."

He referred to that background in his OP so his response to you didn't really change what he was discussing - like I stated, based on what's satisifed him and his overall responses he was really wanting input over what skill to use to catch fish. I won't be discussing further as there's not really any point - Arthadan has responded and is happy with things; we're dragging this out more than we need to, mate!

I think what Doc is trying to ask here (please correct me if I'm wrong) is:

What story goal are you trying to achieve?

Behind this question lies the notion that it might be hard to come up with a situation where it would be dramatically important to make rolls for Fishing.

I for one would agree. The game has skills for a lot of things that the game (by including these skills) take as "important" or relevant to the story.

There are probably hundreds of skills that people "know how to do" but that are not really dramatically important to the story, and therefore we don't see and specific skills for that.

Typically the more important to the story a skill is the more defined and specialized the skills will be.

For this reason we have separate weapon skills for different kinds of weapons but only ONE skill for acquiring food in the wild; Hunting.

We also have only one skill to build stuff; Craft. And you use it regardless if you want to use a forge and make a nice blade out of metal, or if you want to weave a basked out of reeds. Since it's hard to come up with a situation where it would be dramatically interesting to separate these two Crafts, it fine to have them all in one skill.

The difference then, if you need it is in the character background, traits etc.

.... That's my take on this at least.

/wolf

Nice to see that there is a difference of opinion, even on how fishing should be implemented, mechanically.

Look to the adventure as a whole. If it's a dire survival situation, then detail the fishing as an encounter, perhaps based on Strength, and Lore.

If it's just feeding the party, use a basic hunting roll, and move on since in a survival situation, you will expend more energy catching fish than you will gain in calories from the devouring.

Maddening Fact, isn't it?

Cheers GhostWolf - I know what Doc was getting at but like I said we're dealing directly with the OP's query about Hunting and Fishing. That's all I was addressing as that was the heart of his issue.

You lost me...

/wolf

... Have I found you again?

Wow, who whould of thought we'd have a 2 page (and counting) thread about fishing.

Is any one else trying to think of dramatic situations where fishing can save the day now?

Gollum holding the PCs at gun point with a Magnum .44 - "Go ahead, precious, make my day!"

Example 1: In the Northern Waste a group of adventurers have been lost for says dring a snow storm. They come near a frozen lake and the only hope of survival is caught some fishes.

Example 2: In the Great River there is an evil spirit drowning people, the group has seen it but now is fleeing and they have to track it in the current.

Example 3: The company is trying to design a trap for a kraken!

It took me about 30 seconds to get these examples, if you want more just tell me

Not sure Examples 2 and 3 are fishing as I couldn't see Jack Charlton doing either of them!

Hunting skill is used for making traps, tracking and hunting so it's only logical Fishing works the same.

Just so its clear, I was joking!

That is right, and thanks for better communicating it.

Sometimes I think we often go straight for the mechanical answers before discussing why we even need something and what we are ultimately trying to accomplish. I thought it was germane to ask that question.

Rich H, I was joking too!

Doctheweasel, what I want is to give something special to that particular backgroung without forcing the player to get the Fishing Speciality. I mean, the character can be an average fisher, no need to be an awesome one (unless the player wants to).

I think is he same for a hunter. The character may get the Beast-lore Speciality to be a great hunter or just get some points in Hunting.

However, I have already got my answer and I'm happy with it, so we can close this thread.

Cool, always worth checking! A lot of humour can get lost in posts when compared to if we were talking face-to-face.

The use of survival, hunting and fishing will likely be something that is looked at in the Rivendell sourcebook as these will be necessary skill types for the Rangers of the North.

Noooooo!

If there's one thing I hate, it's when you get this type of "skill inflation" in an RPG. You start out with a set of skills, and as supplements come by that list gets longer and longer.

I say NO and a thousand times NO!

If I see extra skills popping up I will consider abandoning this game. That's how strongly I feel about this. It's just sloppy game design in my opinion.

Luckily I have high hopes that is not going to happen. The designers seem to share my views on a lot of thing; narrow game focus, firm core aimed towards that focus, and emphasis on atmosphere supporting that focus throughout the core rules.

Now if you want to switch this focus to something else, fine... but then all benefit is lost and you should probably use another game.

That is why I initially liked the idea of publishing two more games for different settings and power levels. It would allow each game to be focused on slightly different aspects of Middle Earth without risk of ruining the previous one. I know this idea is off the table, but... if that means we are going to see "scope creep" here I fear I will blow a fuse and promptly stop playing it.

... I probably worry too much...

/wolf

Ditto GhostWolf.

I've seen many games go this way, largely because of marketing/sales objectives than any aspiration to improve the game.

The One Ring is already a great system. It will benefit from the addition of more enemies, etc for sure, but not extra skills!

If it isn't broken, don't fix it. Please.