Has anyone given thought to why Sauron might have chosen Amon Lanc as the seat of his Shadow's re-emergence in the West? I am looking for background story ideas, and I have a few of my own. But, I would be more interested in what others might suggest!

Regards,
E

REMARK: Amon Lanc was Dol Guldur's original Sindarin name when it was the seat of the Elven-king of Mirkwood in the SA according to The UT.

EDIT: What I was thinking of was story suggestions, rumors told around the hearth-fire, folk-talkes as well as information and lore meant to mislead the Wise. It's for my campaign. The story has moved closer to Darkening, and I'm planning to muddle the waters in the second story-arc. So, I am hoping to tap into the forum's creativity and find new grist for the mill.

Nice view. Quiet neighbors. Plenty of room for expansion.

Plus, Sauron bought into the realtor's "buy more lair than you can afford - your power will always grow but your lair can't."

That works, perfect remark for a Lake-town tavern...

If I were to guess, I'd say he wanted to be near the Gladden Fields and the Anduin - so he could more easily search for his Ring.

That's what I'd say as well. There are many places in the East where his reincarnation would have been both safer and more profitable, but obsession for his lost ring and against those who took it from him would "naturally" drive him there.

It's about halfway between Arnor and Gondor, accessible from the east and relatively sheltered. It's still within reasonable distance from his old fortress of Mordor, which was occupied and watched for a while (and possibly denied to him at that time). Rather close from the Lothlorien however, I wonder if he considered the Galadrim elves as not dangerous enough to pose a threat or if he was simply ignorant of the powers that resided there...

This answer works hand-in-hand with my prior conjecture that Sauron's fea was dispersed through out the world of Middle-earth when Isuldur cut the Ruling Ring from his hand. As Sauron started to heal and call his substance back together, the lack of power (which he had previously invested in the Ruling Ring) meant it took decades to literally "pull himself together" sufficiently to be a finite spirit, or perhaps more accurately, a ghost. During that time Sauron's fea caused the spiritual poisoning of Greenwood the Great, warping the forest and its inhabitants into Mirkwood. Other evil creatures moved into the wood over time as the degree of taint increased, eventually leading to the arrival of the spiders and orcs.

Anyway, enough with the recap. On to new material.

1) First and foremost: It's not the presence of the One Ruling Ring.
Sorry, nope, don't buy it. First, How does Sauron know where Isuldur died? Remember, my guess is that Sauron was already a smear of atoms across the face of the planet, incapable of coherent thought. So how would he make note of the and choose to reform in the area of Wilderland as opposed to any other ?

Secondly, if the Ruling Ring was capable of calling to Sauron in some manner, he would have found Bilbo in the Shire long before Bilbo's party. And just forget Frodo - Bilbo would have been stretched to 17' tall by the Rack by the time he would get involved in the story. Bilbo was discreet about his possession of the Ring, but he did tell others of it and I think I recall some few others saying they had glimpsed Bilbo's Ring without Bilbo's knowledge. The point here being that the Ring would have embroiled the Shire in chaos if it could, trying to bring itself to Sauron's notice in this manner if it was capable of doing so. But it didn't. So either Hobbits are something more than they appear (and honestly, I do put some store into the idea) or certain aspects of the Ring are weaker than we thought.

2) It's not Saruman's covetous nature.
Sauron was the second party to search the Gladden Fields. Saruman had already been searching the area when Sauron began doing so. Which begs the question, why is Sauron searching here? Because if the Ring can call Sauron he would quickly note that he's not feeling a desire to head off in that direction. Maybe it is a feint against Saruman in some manner? To focus his attention here on the Gladden Fields uselessly when Sauron knows the Ring is elsewhere? That would certainly jibe with Sauron's love of scheming.

3) I say Fie to Location, Location, Location!
As others have stated, even if Sauron was kept out of Mordor due to it being watched, there were other, better s, for Sauron to incarnate himself. Angmar. Just about anywhere to the South or East. Heck, one of the Barrows in the Barrow Downs would be just as viable. There is some merit to the "it's equidistant from Arnor and Gondor" argument because he could not know what the descendents of Numenor had become and whether they could immediately sense his presence and take action against him. The strongest argument against that idea is the Numenorean fall from grace as it was unlikely that they would be granted a return to such lofty heights. Another point against this is Sauron's emergence in the vicinity of Elven strongholds.

And that right there, I think, provides a glimmer of the real answer...

Why has Sauron chosen to assume corporeal form within sight of Lothlorien, home of one Elven Ring of Power, and Greenwood the Great on the threshold of another Elven stronghold?

Why, the simplest and most obvious answer of all. The Rings of Power. Except in this case it was not the presence or proximity of any of the existing Rings, but rather the crafting of a new Ring of Power.

Think about it. Right after the Nine and the Seven had been fabricated, Sauron went off to Mordor and secretly began the process of designing the Ruling Ring. During that time, when he was laying the groundwork for the crafting of the Ring, the Elves used their knowledge to craft the Three. And it was in possession of the Three that they became aware of the existence and domination of the Ruling Ring, at the moment of it's completion. Sauron considered the crafting of all of the Rings of Power to be a reflection of his knowledge and power, demanding that the Elves release all of the Rings to him. The Elven denial embroiled Beleriand in war that ended only with the realm's existence.

So imagine Sauron barely gaining consciousness and just beginning to reform and in the midst of this endeavor he "hears" a monstrous clanging sound. Something akin to the monstrous impact of an alarm bell.

Except all it truly is, is the hammering of an inquisitive Elven crafter, attempting to create a Ring of Power on his own. Too skilled, but not Wise, he attempts to work around the proscription of Sauron's tainted technique. To craft for himself a Ring of Power of some aspect, that seeks to build on the tenets of enchantment the Elves had already learned for themselves. With decades having past and many of the original craftsmen dead, this Elven craftsman's lack of knowledge eventually brought him to ruin. His crafting attempts skirted Sauronic knowledge for a long time, but eventually he was caught, making use of tainted knowledge. The crafting of that Ring sent a crescendo through the spirit world and woke Sauron to a semblance of consciousness. The use of his greatest magics called to Sauron's fea, providing a focus that allowed him to reform around that ring with greater ease.

It was that clarion bell, of rhythmic hammering, that brought Sauron's spirit back into a coherent wholeness. First as a series of gentle taps and eventually the resounding ringing of full strokes. Yet always a call to clarity and reformation.

Sauron had progressed from a fea smeared around the planet, to a finite spiritual form. He had not yet taken physical form, but he was getting there.

Garn,
I fear your idea is stretching the canon too much for Eliadin's refined taste...
But I really like it

Might I take "refined taste" to be synonymous with hewing close to the published stories...? Or, is it more like our dear, dear Lotho, inordinately pre-occupied...?

Either way, we all add to the texture and value of the forum: those with a concern for mechanics and those with a concern for Tolkien, and those whose flourish provides wonderful reading for the early hours of the morning before tots are awake and scones baked!

Regards,
E

This.

And very knowledgeable -let's say erudite- about the professor's writings.
On the contrary, I consider myself somewhat a bastard son to Middle-earth: I love it, yet never really fitted in.
Garn's idea strikes a chord in me... So I suspect it is a bit too far for truer sons of M-e

Maybe because the orcs that killed him knew. The Free People eventually figured out, so it stands to reason that the guy who commands the killers knew.

I don't think so. The orcs had no knowledge whom they attacked and killed. Only that it was a small company of tarks. And all the great orcs fell in the battle, likely taking the commander with them (though that is conjecture).
In addition, it was a about a thousand years until Sauron returned. IMHO it is unlikely any orc would survive that long (even if he had the lifespan), and any tales would be distorted by the passing of generations.

Cheers
Tolwen

Has Tolkien wrote whether Sauron took Amon Lanc as a site to reform, or if he reformed elsewhere and then took Amon Lanc centuries after?

AFAIK there is no information by Tolkien on this, so we have to extrapolate from known facts.
The proximity to the Gladden Fields is not so bad as a factor. There may be no overt "calling" of the One - otherwise Sauron would have gor it very early - but Sauron might have felt "comfortable" in this area, perhaps a very subtle phenomenon and so subtle that Sauron was not aware that his "homeliness" was due to his ring
In addition to that, the offered strategic advantages: It was in the vicinity of his old enemies, but yet sufficiently away from to prevent problems. The only exception is Lórien, but there was a river in between, offering additional protection. Galadriel is not yet here (she will arrive only later in about 1,000 years), so there is no irritating Elven Ring in the vicinity as well. Lórien is nearby, ut the elves are not nearly as dangerous or powerful as in the Second Age, so their vicinity is not that problematic (in contrast to vigorous Gondor for example).

He might have learned about Isildur's fate (which was far from common knowledge) in documents captured in Minas Ithil. They need not be discovered early on, but (much?) later by chance or systematic search.

Cheers
Tolwen

He is not clear about that unfortunately. IMHO Tolkiens hints point to the version that he took shape before (probably not much before) and in this occupied Amon Lanc.

Cheers
Tolwen

My point is that Saruman figured it out, so it's not unlikely that Sauron did as well.

Well the Silvan elves abandoned Amon Lanc at the beginning of the Third Age, so maybe orcs and other foul things moved in shortly after the withdrawal. Maybe Sauron chose Amon Lanc because it was a ready made stronghold, close to the Misty Mountains where surely most of orckind was at that point in time, replacing their losses.

It's likely also got something to do with Arnor. He probably wanted to be close (but not too close) to the Kingdom of the North.

And Saruman had unrestricted access to the archives of the Númenóreans (and probably Elves) as well as personal talks with people living at the time (e.g. the Eldar). Since he was considered a firm and faithful ally, they were all supporting him in all his inquiries when he asked. Sauron had none of this

Cheers
Tolwen

People might be forgetting what he was called... "The Necromancer" It's possible he heard about the possibility of Gladden Fields... Remember, he has "Many Spies, birds, beasts..." etc.

So he heads to Amon Lanc and creates Dol Guldur to help his attempts to bring those killed there back to life to question them.

Just an idea. Is there any other stated reason that he was called "The Necromancer"?

Also, Tolkien himself posited that the search for the ring was his reason.

From The Silmarillion:

"It is Sauron himself who takes shape ... and he seeks ever for news of the One, and the heirs of Isildur..."

"[Saruman] set a watch uppon Gladden |Fields; but soon he discovered the servants of Dol Guldur were searching all the ways of the river in that region. Then he percieved that Sauron also had learned of the manner of Isildur's end..."

It's possible that he chose there to reform (As is stated in the Silmarillion) because the closeness of the ring, and thus a portion of his life force, made it easier for him to. Doesn't mean that at the time he knew in what direction the ring lay. And the Gladden Fields area isn't exactly a great place for a fortress... It's a little out in the open.

Tensen01,
Actually I'm not forgetting the naming situation. I've tried to always keep the dichotomy of the differing persona's in mind when speaking about this period.

Particularly as I disagree with the Other Hands (Minds?) article that suggested Tolkien chose the term Necromancer based on etymology alone. Because as I understand the metaphysics of this setting, access to the souls of Man is outside Saurons' power (as they have rejoined Eru) and any Elves within the Halls of Mandos would be safeguarded by the Valar. Thus rendering the Necromancer's conjectured etymologically based powers of necromantic prophecy / clairvoyance null. The only spirits available would be either Elves who have passed and refused Mandos, or those who already gave their allegiance to Sauron. So, they're effectively useless for this purpose. Not to mention a waste of magical power.

Also, since other people know the Necromancer's name, whatever magics he engages in must to some degree be visible to the other inhabitants of the area. Otherwise they might as well just call him "the evil mage in the Elven ruins" or "Bob" or whatever works best for them. Calling him "Necromancer" specifically means they have seen the results of his magical efforts. And with the exception of a scene in Sherri Tepper's Mavin Manyshaped trilogy, I haven't seen very many etymologically correct Necromancers.

Anyway...

My first draft of that post actually asked for clarity whether the original request was for why Sauron reformed in Greenwood/Amon Lanc or why the Necromancer chose to settle there. Because to me the two answers are different.

The Necromancer's reasoning is more in line with what most of the other posters have already said. He was looking for the Ring. He was staying close to Enemies. He was gathering his strength in a more neutral setting, thus forestalling the Wise from immediate attack. And all the rest of it.

But to my way of thinking it wasn't why Sauron chose to re-form there (and by this I mean simply to become a finite spirit or ghost. Not his attempt to take a physical form. That is one of the Necromancer's secrets. [Not sure if I posted that bit of conjecture already - it might have been one of the last bits into the dead HDD.])

And, BTW, the "it is Sauron himself who takes shape" doesn't negate the idea that Sauron regains his Maia form (what I've been calling a finite spirit or ghost form) and not an actual physical form.

Good point, forgot about that... Doesn't mean he couldn't/didn't try...

Sauron is not known for his acceptance of "the rules"

BTW, my apologies on diverting your inquiries Elaudin. I thought by providing an answer of why he really appeared it would allow others to embroider on the idea or work around it for fireside tall tales. I find that unless you know what really happened you cannot offer suitable lies.

Such as:

• My da says the Elves must have fought there once - long, long ago, a great and terrible battle. Lying there, deep among the soil, are the bones of thousands of Elves, in forgotten scraps of finery, wielding still their enchanted blades, bright still with magics sharp enough to make them cut the wind. He's been calling them up, that Necromancer fellah, to make an army of his own.
• They say that the daughter of a Woodman was found near there. Lying in a ball, all squinched up. Crying, all quiet like, unseeing of anything that lived. They took her away... back to her family. But no one in the village gets any sleep because at night she screams. Screams and screams and screams. No one can stop her, and no one listening to her can doubt she has seen some horror that has broken her mind. But no one has a clue what to do with her. How do you fix a child so desperately broken?
• In the darkness, at night, there are things that come out and stare at you as you move through the woods. [Note: It's true! The moths have a slight metallic brown eyespot which glimmers with any source of light within the dark confines of the woods! So when they flutter their wings the eyes blink. These beasts move quickly and in impossible ways (flying), etc.]
• The Necromancer is one of those Easterling. Did you know that?
• The Necromancer is an Elf, why else has he lived so long? Down in that fancy Elven town what was once there.
• "Well," begins another man, taking a look around him to check who is present. "I heard he was a Man, caught by the magics of one of them Dwarven blades. Nigh onto four centuries ago, he went into one of them Dwarven places, and found there a blade which called to him by name. And in the hearing, he was snared..."
• It must be an Elf, who else would want to live in that forest?
• I- I heard rumors. They say that their are poisonous spiders living inside the woods. More spiders than you can count. And they're huge - why they must be the size of your hand!
• Some evil thing in that forest calls out, in a plaint no man of good heart can hear, crying out for something that it wants, that it must have, yet cannot ever find.
• Ahhh! That is just what mamah said to you last night, claiming it was the ale crying out for drinking! Although she thought that sooner or later you would learn that it didn't mean it had to be you doing the drinking!
• Shut yer yapp!
• I was cutting deadwood at the edge of the forest, away to the south. I saw a thing, I don't know what it was, exactly. A toad perhaps? If 'twere a giant toad - least as big as a boy... I don't know. Some misshapen thing of grayness moving off in the morning fog.
• "My Shirelle, she says she knows what it is. Just a bunch of lazy gits wasting time with a pint around a fire, instead of workin proper like. To Shirelle! Who may have gotten it right!" Shirelle's lazy husband says, offering up a toast to his wife.

This is correct technically speaking. The main point is though, that the people in the area (especially the Northmen living there), need only believe he might have such powers. Sauron, as the master of lies and deception has means to make the lesser and uneducated men of the area believe he has power over their deceased loved ones. It is not important whether he actually has this, as he can counterfeit such appearances. Men would have no chance to tell the difference.
And the Elves are likely aware of the danger to a fëa being trapped by counter-calls (opposed to Mandos), especially if it is already refusing the summons of the Valar. Thus, in the Eldar's eyes, the term Necromancer (i.e. someone having power over the fëar of the deceased) has a very real rather than a pretended meaning. Since the call to Mandos may be refused, in Arda the elven fëar have a much greater potential for being subject to necromancy rather than mannish ones who cannot be forced to stay in Arda unless really heavy artillery is brought forth (e.g. Rings of Power).

Under "normal" circumstances even Sauron is not able to "catch" mannish fëar, but tragically they are unaware of this, while those who know they can be in danger of such powers (the Elvs) are aware of this, thus unintentionally supporting Sauron's universal claim to manipulating souls. A plot worth of Sauron for sure!

Cheers
Tolwen

Tolwen,
You make a good point about Sauron utilizing subterfuge against the limited knowledge of Lesser Men. As well as the very real danger he might pose to Elven souls. Both are points I had not considered in the very limited conception and writing I did before loosing it all. Since then writing these posts constitutes 99% of the effort invested since then into the idea. This would have required extensive research among the sources to legitimately handle.

Anyway, I still think that the Necromancer would still have to perform some more capable magical act to warrant the name and recognition by the locals. Yet whatever was done cannot be too capable a feat or it would garner the immediate investigation of the Wise into the situation - something the Necromancer and Sauron both want to avoid.

Hi Garn,

I'm not so sure about the level of magical display necessary. With good intelligence and preparation, he can make this a very real - perceived - threat without attracting too much attention beyond the local region. This might be another reason for choosing Amon Lanc: He is in the general region of his old home, but still comfortably far away from the centers of his old enemies: Eriador/Lindon, the Woodland Realm and Gondor ar far away and only the local Elves in Lórien are more near (but still without Galadriel and Celeborn).

Using agents to gather information about the local politics, gentilic relations, families etc. of local Northmen, Sauron can stage instances where one or more of these people see the "souls" of their deceased loved ones communicating with them and warning them of the danger they [the "souls"] are in due to the Necromancer (all of course counterfeits of Sauron, but with enough intimate knowledge to make it fully believable). A couple of well-placed of such incidents would convince the local people of the potential danger. From there on, the word will begin to spread among the Northmen threatened. Of course it will begin on a small level, and then slowly grow. This is the exactly the way Sauron would want it to have: First local experiences, word beginning to get through the local communities. From there, stories and rumours will spread by themself, becoming emebllished with each telling. During and after that, a few well-placed "soul hostage" incidents on the local level to keep up the pretense and help keep the facade.

IMO this needs no big magics or overt displays of power, but rather subversion of belief, hope and religion. A really sauronic strategy

Cheers
Tolwen

Garn, for a chap who hasn't read the books "thoroughly," you capture them brilliantly with your fireside tales chat. I really enjoyed reading these - the flavor & the feel - & you have some good ideas for working into plots as well.

Garn,
Thanks for the request to precise my question and its reason! So, at the moment and among other things, I'm putting in writing after the fact a campaign put into play. And, as all things reflected on by the fireside after the telling, time and leisure deepen the meaning, and illuminate threads that existed unbeknownst in the original conception. So it is with this campaign. The requested assistance is going towards filling out one of these threads. By way of context, here is an excerpt from the campaign, one I've named Departure and Homecoming.
----

Three story arcs combine to create the ambitious narrative envisioned by Departure and Homecoming. Each story arc ends in a significant event detailed in the Tale of Years that involves the Wise and chief powers of the North. The three combined create a grand weave where the Enemy in secret seeks to undermine the Hope still flickering after the passing of its Shadow. Without realizing such dire plots are still in play, the Wise strive to renew the Hope that led once to the crushing defeat of the Orcs and Wolves of the North; and, might yet again, lead the Free Peoples of the North into bonds of friendship and alliance. For the Wise know better than to confuse the Enemy's flight from Mirkwood with defeat. The razing of Dol Guldur was nothing more than an opening move. The great struggle to come shall be fought in the hearts of people as much as the fields of battle, and that shall define the Twilight of the Third Age. If the Free Peoples are to stand strong and united, then the Hope that flickers so tenuously must be guarded and preserved, nourished and strengthened for greater challenges await.

The first story arc, "The Grey Pilgrim," leads up to and culminates in the events of 2948 as the Grey Pilgrim travels the courts of Wilderland. Will Gandalf undertake this momentous and difficult task knowing that the drifting apart of Elves, Men, and Dwarves is more than the caprice of time and chance, old enmities rising to the surface? The first three adventures in the campaign deal with this story arc. The adventures themselves provide the clues that could substantiate the doubt of some that, in fact, the Enemy may have fled but his Shadow remains. And, that Shadow still fills Mirkwood with a menace that intentionally but secretly acts in opposition to all the plans and strategies of the Free Peoples. The first adventure takes place in the Spring of 2946, and the second in the Fall of that same year. The former adventure ends with a brief respite (Fellowship Phase) in the land of the Folk of the Western-eaves as Summer wanes. While the second adventure ends at the Gathering of Five Armies and a long Winter-rest in Dale (another Fellowship Phase). The third adventure, last in this story arc spans all of 2947 as the player-heroes follow whisper after rumour and hunt the bane plaguing the people who live in among Mirkwood's dusk, and wisps of menace orchestrating so much of the gathering darkness. It culminates in a masterful play of move and counter-move unbeknownst to the player-heroes as the Shadow challenges with a greater confidence and surety of its strength the Will of the West.

----

That's a piece of the introduction to the campaign. The third adventure sees Gandalf increasingly returning to the very question I posed. The player-heroes, depending on the outcome of the previous adventures are assisting Gandalf knowingly or unknowingly with gathering information across the length and breadth of Wilderland. The rumors I've posited of course followed a particular series of outcomes from adventures one and two. But, other possibilities exist as far as outcomes from adventures one and two; and, with those other possible outcomes, other rumors exist to lead and mislead the player-heroes and ultimately Gandalf. That's the context in short.

The particular structure for the rumors looks something like this. There is Sauron's actual intent for choosing Dol Guldur. This, I take from Tolkien's own writings on the matter for he does provide us a definitive answer. Then, there are the Northmen folk-tales concerning the Necromancer. In my TOR setting, Sauron did not choose the epithet "Necromancer" for his sojourn in Mirkwood. Quite the contrary, that was the name the indigenous Northmen gave the growing presence of evil in Southern Morkwood, a name that started around hearth-fires and entered into folk-lore. So, there are a set of rumors associated with Northmen Folk-lore. Then, there is the knowledge of the Elve of Mirkwood both before and after the Great Council of 2851. These provide a structure for another set of "reasons" mostly couched in Shadow-lore. The Dwarven traders of the Old Forest Road have their own stories. And, onward the web extends. Some, Sauron intentionally spun into the telling through his servants and spies. Others born out of the imagination of the Men of the North have brought endless pleasure to the Enemy; and, at times, far surpassed any that he himself wove into the web. These, the Shadow manipulates and enlarges through deceit and subterfuge.

By the time of 2946, the Wise know the Necormancer was Sauron and have acted. But, for some, this left more questions then resolution.

Hopefully, this explanation hasn't labored on too terribly, and provides some context for my question.

More importantly, thank you all who have chimed in with ideas ranging the spectrum. Please continue if inclined and know they are good grist for the mill.

Sincerely,
E

NOTE: Tolkien answers the question through the words of Gandalf the White. Words spoken while awaiting the coronation of Aragorn, Gandalf explains to Frodo that the Enemy chose Dol Guldur for originally his intention was to assault the Elven Realms of Lorien and Mirkwood, and from there push into the West towards the Havens. Only with the hard won knowledge of his physical sojourn in Middle-earth and the lifting of his burden, was Gandalf able to see this clearly; and, quite possibly, coupled with Olorin's foreknowledge now available as he neared his return into the Uttermost West. Though Gandalf's words to this last make it unclear.

REMARK: Given the above information concerning Sauron's true reason for inhabiting Dol Guldur, in Departure I maintain an implicit sub-story that Sauron exploited the White Council's assault and abandoned Dol Guldur without abandoning his original designs. That said, between his flight and the Darkening of Mirkwood the Shadow was still following and playing out plans began centuries past. And, that these plans were meant to bring to fruition and achieve the end of his designs for destroying the Elven-kingdoms of the North never changed until the Ring become known of once again.

Mim,
Thanks, that means a lot to me because I know you've been hanging around here for quite some time. Honestly I don't think I've read the entire game books cover-to-cover as yet. And I'm missing huge swathes of Tolkien - I've only read Hobbit, LotR and Sil, nothing else. Oh, and Children of Hurin - once.

I must admit though I spend a lot of time crafting my posts. You'll notice that I wrote to Tensen01 an hour earlier in this same thread. So the Fireside Tales post took at least an hour to write. Then I probably did another 15 minutes of re-editing.



Tolwen,
This may be the problem...

See, you're playing it as Sauron portraying a persona called The Necromancer.

I'm handling it more like it's the Necromancer doing things. No Sauron. Well, ok, that is both simplistic and unrealistic but I think you get the general idea. I've also got Sauron taking possession of an Easterling mage (thus my reference to one of the Necromancer's secrets, earlier) which gives him a completely verifiable "life" (which has no ties to Sauron) which the Wise can check and which completely subverts all further efforts by them. [I think I posted about this Easterling months ago already, so I'm not going to rehash the idea here.]

Sauron is a master of subterfuge and this has to be one of the most convoluted schemes he has ever engaged in. So to me the idea of "just" calling up these "Souls" is unacceptable. Because it is too simple. It needs at least another three layers of subterfuge for me to consider it viable.

For instance:

• Why don't any of the locals realize that the Necromancer is driving everyone away?
• Why don't the Wise ask themselves the same quest?
• Have Souls ever appeared before to give warning in these cultures?
• If they have not, why are they doing it now?
• Using The Speakers, Elves could ask how new these Souls are to the area?
• Using The Speakers, Elves could determine if the area has had any fea in the area at all.
• etc

My point is that until much later in time, it is absolutely critical that the Necromancer never be compared to Sauron. So there has to be a marked division in knowledge and power. The orcs of the area cannot be known to accept the Necromancer as their leader. Nor can the spiders. Or the Werewolf. These differences have to be visible, because they must make their way to the Wise, as a form of misinformation, as another level of subterfuge.

There are probably other issues, but I haven't really thought about this. Again, most of the creative effort I've spent on the Necromancer has been replying to posts. Or simply recalling my original thoughts on the failed disk drive. Even with the above this is mostly off the cuff. Which is probably why you keep finding big gaping holes in the theory.

Feel free to continue though.


PS: This post was being written at the same time as Elaudin's above. So if anything jumps out as being a discrepancy in light of his prior comment, you know why. Now excuse me while I go and read Elaudin's post.

Elaudin,

Interesting. I very vaguely recall Gandalf saying that - now that you've drawn attention to it, of course!

This raises some questions of it's own. For instance, this would imply that Saruman's defection was an unplanned and relatively recent development. (And probably explains why his spirit looked to the West upon the destruction of his hroa.) Why? Because otherwise Sauron could have avoided the War of the Ring as we know it all-together by pitting Saruman more thoroughly against Rohan along with providing some support to defeat Helm's Deep. Sauron could have then traversed the Gap of Rohan and attacked Rivendell from an "impossible" angle thereby. Pitting Angmar's might against the Shire, the Rangers/Dunedan still in the ruins of Arnor, and attacked the Havens directly with 90% of his original force. Minas Tirith would be moot - neither Boromir or Faramir would have suggested abandoning the city and attacking any of Mordor's fortresses. Not to mention that the Pirate Fleet would have done for them.

This would have still left the Strongholds of Rhovanion (Lothlorien, Wood-Elf Kings Halls [Lords! Does this thing have a better name?!?], Erebor, Dale, Esgaroth). This hypothetical campaign would have subverted all hope from these folks. The Elves would have no way to go to the Undying Lands. Rivendell, along with the wisdom of Elrond (and keep in mind that he's only second to Galadriel as the oldest living Elf in Middle-earth! - I think) and his Ring would have been lost (and the Valar only know what Sauron with an Elven Ring would have been capable of!*). With the combined might of Angmar/Mt Gundabad, Goblintown, Saruman, Dol Guldur, Mordor, the Pirate fleet and whatever Easterlings and other forces from "off the map" could be gathered, and whatever still exists within the Grey Mountains/Withered Heath... the Strongholds of Rhovanion would not last very long at all.

*: Remember Galadriel resisting the temptation of the Ruling Ring? What would she do with Sauron whispering sweet temptations directly into her mind morning, noon, and night? Taken off her Ring no doubt - and that in itself is a trap. Because having taken off the Ring she is still a Ringbearer and connected to them, but she looses access to the power the Ring provided. Thus undermining her defensive capabilities. But a portion of her mind (and Gandalf!) would have been open to Sauron still.

PS: I don't count Glorfindel or the Istari/Maiar because they're not really of the world of Middle-earth. Glorfindel died and was returned. The Istari/Maiar are not mortal in the normal sense of the word.

On the name Necromancer:
While it is nigh impossible that he could have held the soul of a Man and unlikely that of an Elf, there are other options for necromantic magic. For spirit based necromancy it is likely he had some ability to draw forth the spirits of dead Orcs, wargs, or other creatures of shadow. It could even be that the orcs and goblins themselves coined the term Necromancer and Elves and Men learned it from interrogating or spying up on them. Perhaps it was by interrogating the spirits of the fallen Orcs that Sauron learned of Isildur's fate. There are also still spirits such as the Barrow-wights, and control over or communication with them could lead to the name. It's also possible that he used more material magic that tricked those fighting him (especially Men) into believing he had true Necromantic abilities. An animated corpse rising against its former comrades could easily lead to tales that would end up in the creation of the name Necromancer.

Also, at least Cirdan and Celeborn are both considerably older than Elrond even if one discounts Glorfindel.

Lucyfersam,
Hello, nice post, thanks for joining us.

A number of your comments would work in line with my conjecture on the nature of the Necromancer. The possibility of the Orcs or equivalent creatures being responsible for his name is something I had not considered and might be viable, if indirectly. Perhaps overheard talking about him in whispers, just as the Woodmen or Beornings become sure that something malevolent is in the forest, and now they can put a name to it.

Man: Hiding from the approaching orcs.
Orc 1: "The men of the woods call him Necromancer..."
Orc 2: "They dare-"
Orc 1: "He laughed. He liked it."
Orc 2: "Fools!"
Orc 1: "Yessss. They will learn."
Orc 2: "Naming him, they give him power."
Orc 1: "Yessss," said in a horrible rasping laugh.
Man: With the orcs several yards past, the man bolts.
Orcs: Turn and watch the man run off.
Orc 1: "They will learn."

The animated corpse is exactly the kind of "visible magics" that would spread the Necromancer's name and infamy around. Especially as, Gandalf specifically says that by the time of The Hobbit, even Bilbo had heard the name of the Necromancer within the safety of the Shire.

I prefer the Necromancer as a black magician and a death-related magic-user, I just don't see the point of divination via spirits within the setting (as previously noted). With regards to divination, I might accept that the Necromancer was able to slow a spirit's departure in some manner, giving him the opportunity to ask it questions related to what the spirit knew in life - but nothing more than that. This would be a quite limited effect on those who had just died, probably murdered.


Finally, yes, I forgot about both Cirdan and Celeborn since they're usually "off-stage" during the LotR. They're present, but as the story barely interacts with them directly as characters, they tend to be forgotten. Off the top of my head I cannot recall Celeborn's approximate age. I know Tolkien altered him (and Galadriel) a few times so things are a bit murky, but other than "during the First Age he was present" I cannot place him more accurately into the timeline - without looking it up.

Garn,
In this were much alike! In fact, I maintain a single Pages document where I write the majority of my posts, often reflect and revise before posting. This document contains most of my electronic musings on TOR.

LOL

I think you put your finger right on the point: the stories closest to Folk-lore shall tell of a Necromancer without any conscious connection to Sauron. In fact, any correlation to Sauron rests outside the reach of the Wise, Folk-lore, or Shadow-lore for the first 1400 years of the Necromancer's existence. Gandalf only discovers the truth in 2850. Until this time, the Wise fear the Necromancer is the re-emergence of lesser servant of the Shadow. Those without the knowledge of the Wise would believe (most likely) the Necromancer to be the personification of their culture's worst nightmares. Or, so I believe.

[TO SPECULATE] Sauron's strategies and machinations, as you suggest, would be directed to maintain this disconnect. That is, until the moment he declares himself and begins the assault on Lorien and Thranduil's kingdom. So, again, I think you are spot on with approach.

With TOR set after 2850, the possible explanations multiply I believe. Folk-lore, I propose, would continue to track as you've been advocating. Shadow-lore, in the hands of Elves that remember would start to move more towards the objective conceptualizations offered by Tolwen for example. But, these explanations discussed by the Wise and Elves with Shadow-lore stretching back to a prior age would not concern themselves with why he was called the Necromancer, that name would never come from the Elves or the Wise. The word isn't Elven nor does it have a correlate being a Middle English corruption of an alien word. Instead, I believe these learned ones would be troubled not by the name "Necromancer" but by the Sauron chose for his arising. At least this is the path I've taken up in my work.

With that in mind, I need to construct tales, rumors, and fears known in Folk-lore, Shadow-lore, etc. Each takes a different approach ranging from a narrative explanation (in the story) to conceptual explanation (out of story or History of Middle-earth approach). That's where I am at presently...

Regards,
E

Quite early on it is suspected to be a Nazgûl residing there in Amon Lanc:

Given that one or more Nazgûl might be the cause of the Shadow in Dol Guldur, the Wise were not that fooled by the possibility of greater forces of the Shadow acting there. It seems that Gandalf was the first to suspect the truth.
In fact, the massed attacks on the Númenoreans - and evil misfortunes in general (end of Arthedain, end of kings in Gondor, the Balrog in Moria) in the 20th century TA probably led Gandalf to the conclusion that something greater than a Nazgûl might be at work in Dol Guldur. Consequently, he went there in TA 2063 to verify his suspicion that it might be indeed Sauron himself. The latter was not yet ready for declaring himself, consequently fleeing the place which resulted in the Watchful Peace until TA 2460.
The second visit was "only" a re-affirmation of his doubts 800 years earlier.

In all, despite Sauron's clever plots to divert suspicion, even in the 21st century TA the possibility of Sauron's return was taken into serious account (enough to risk a visit to Dol Guldur!). And even the "Nazgûl-theory" would allow for some quite powerful forces of the Shadow acting there from ca. TA 1000 to 2000 - enough for a realy nasty Necromancer endangering souls and animating corpses

Cheers
Tolwen

Elaudin,
Glad to know I've been thinking along somewhat similar lines as some of the best of the Tolkien Scholars - at least on this subject! But, I must say, that you quote me for two paragraphs and the second is most definitely not my work. While I would love to claim it, it is far too erudite. I believe it is yours and you placed the ending quote tag incorrectly.

I'm using a PC so I use Notepad++ which has certain benefits but is not a WYSIWYG media-capable layout software, just a fairly robust text/programming editor. For instance, no font handling at all (not even underlining), but excellent textual layout and cut & paste (includes columnar cutting, not just line-by-line).


Tolwen,
Ultimately I don't think Elaudin or I expect that the Necromancer's efforts at subterfuge are successful, because as you mention Gandalf does have doubts and finally investigates, learning that Sauron has indeed returned. Rather, the Necromancer's efforts are focused on gathering strength and successfully hiding his true identity for as long as possible. This amounts to some 1200 years or more (or however long until suspicion begins). During that time the Wise did not suspect that the Necromancer might be Sauron. So during that time the Necromancer's efforts at obfuscation and misdirection were proven to surpass the skill and knowledge of the Wise. Which is saying an awful lot if it included Galadriel as she's noted for pretty much never falling for his scheming.

The successful completion of other efforts (fall of Arnor, etc) are wonderful, but those are potentially Sauronic efforts (as represented by the Nazgul) and not the work of the Necromancer. Initially the Wise, despite the increase of evil activity, were probably quite happy that Sauron was still missing. As you note, with the preponderance of evidence mounting that these events were not isolated incidents but concerted and coordinated effort, the Wise accepted that Sauron must have returned.

This prompted the Wise to ask themselves "If Sauron has returned to Middle-earth, where is he? We see no direct sign of his presence." At which point the fact that a "minor" mortal servant of evil like the Necromancer has been alive for centuries*, and left alone by the Nazgul, probably started to ring alarm bells. The Necromancer's sphere of control (Dol Guldur extending through Mirkwood and into points beyond) would be too large to ignore. The Wise might also have noted the geographical arrangement I alluded to elsewhere: an evil swathe across Middle-earth (Angmar, Gundabad, Goblintown, Moria?, Dol Guldur/Mirkwood, Brown Lands?, Mordor, and the remaining Eastern & Southern allies). Looked at in that light, it becomes much more obvious that the Necromancer cannot be much less than a Nazgul in relative strength. Something along these lines might have been what prompted Gandalf to investigate after all this time.

Everything I said is speculation of course, but that is all that we're left with short of much more educated sifting of Tolkien's body of work than I'm capable of performing. (Although admittedly I haven't done any here.)


*: I had not previously considered the exact length of time involved. If the Necromancer was a Man, even a Black Numenorean, his life expectancy would not exceed 200-400 years, at best. So any Man living beyond that time would immediately draw attention to him being aligned with Sauron (the only known mage with time-denying magics, or the possessor of the remaining Rings of Power - which do the same thing). Otherwise Tolkien's writings do not support a "life-leach" mechanism that I can recall. Alternatives are limited to a Possessing Spirit (which is too close to the truth) or Sauron taking possession of an Elf. But part of the allure of an Easterling is that he would be an older man and non-beautiful, and Sauron is somewhat noted for his vanity.

The Wise must have fairly quickly suspected that the Necromancer was either a lesser spirit servant of Sauron or a ring-bearer of some kind due to his lifespan. This suspicion would likely also be held by the Elves due to their much greater understanding of the nature of life on Middle Earth. By keeping his forces spread out far and wide (through the various places that Garn mentioned) rather than unifying them into a single army, he does much to lower suspicion that he is in fact Sauron. From the text of the Silmarillion, we can see that the Wise leaned toward the assumption of a Nazgul, but that suspicion need not extend even to the Elves.

One concept that might be of interest would be the Necromancer as a Dwarf-lord ring-bearer. Very little is ever said in Tolkien's writings of the 7 rings, so I think you could draw on those for rumor without contradicting cannon fairly easily. This concept would also help sow distrust between the Dwarves and the other free peoples of the region, and makes some potential connection between the Necromancer and Durin's Bane. It would also tend to lead to rumors of fell weapons crafted by the Necromancer for those he favored, weapons that could wound the spirit as much as the body (ala the Ringwraith's attack on Frodo). This would raise fear in even the Elves and help them accept the name and concept of the Necromancer while fearing to go into Dol Goldur and discover the truth.

Overall, the rumors of the Necromancer have to be scary enough to keep most from investigating while being small enough scale to prevent the suspicions of the Wise for as long as possible - which is a fairly fine line.