I agree with you. No PC wizards. Magic should be rare and magic items super rare and wonderful.

Not that I'm saying there should or shouldn't be playable magic using characters (not going to say Wizards, because there were only five of these in the whole of Middle Earth), but by not having any "class" that can wield magic the game definitely loses a percentage of the possible marketable audience out there. The setting by definition appeals to the "Tolkien" crowd, however, that crowd is only a fraction of the whole mob of role-playing gamers. There are going to be people that won't play this game because they want to use magic in a way that is more than what is currently provided.

Yes but then it's no longer a game about middle earth- it's just another D&D. I for one have no interest in that. After the release of the first part of The Hobbit next year , the Tolkien crowd will be bigger than ever.

There are plenty of other RPGs that allow magic-wielding PCs. Folks who won't play a game unless they can play a magic-user should have no problem finding many options to suit them. Personally, I'm very happy that TOR does not.

I think there are (or at least I hope there are) enough roleplayers out there that appreciate a Tolkien based RPG that hews closer to the source material to keep the line in business.

I don't think I ever said that the people who insist on a magic using class won't be able to find 'their' game in the market. What I was saying was that by not having a class that does just that in your game you almost certainly rule them out buying your game. Nobody could argue that the amount of customers that fall into that camp are far and away more than those in the Tolkien-purist camp. This definitely loses you measurable sales in the market. I personally don't think there should be heavy magic use in this game, however, not being able to utilize the subtle magic of Middle Earth in some way seems a shame. Apparently the designers felt the same as they've provided some initial opportunities for such. Somehow this thread has gone far afield from its original topic to arrive here.

EDIT Djd, I doubt that a very major portion of the audience for The Hobbit movie will ever consider buying this game, let alone play RPGs (though the portion that play RPGs will be higher than at most other movies I'm sure). I say this as someone that represented the Decipher Lord of the Rings game, and even though the movies drew hordes of people, the number that were interested in participating at our game demo tables in the theater lobby before the show was miniscule in comparison.

Yes, speaking of going far afield it seems that there are enough quotes and examples provided in this thread to have pc adventures far afield from home.

That's true. The dwarves at least have access to spells in the current version, hobbits have sneaking, and songs have power, and that's fine. But IMO no player should be chaining lightning or fireballing. And honestly, that's the magic I think those magic-using players want to use, not the ability to hide a doorway in stone.

We have indeed wandered far afield!

I should have known better than to lob the PC wizards hand grenade so idly.

I AM A SERVANT OF THE SECRET FIRE! BACK! GO BACK TO THE TOPIC!

You didn't so much toss it idly as pull the pin and throw it away, while still clutching that explosive pineapple in your gifted paw...

Detail is overrated.

Indeed. That's the type of magic no one respecting Middle-earth would want to have such things in a game set in that world - either as PC's or NPC's!

Best
Tolwen

I agree by not having at least a class that can at least do some magic it will limit the games reach. The purests will love it but the game needs to be aimed at a broader audience to be sucsessful.

Seems to me that there is "magic" for all the cultures. It just is not called a spell per se. The Elves and Dwarves get some things called spells and magic, but Woeful Foresight, Brothers to Bears, Night-goer, Art of Disappearing, Natural Watchfulness, and Staunching Song for examples of " abilities" the could be called "magical".

Think about the discussion of magic with Galadriel. I think it just getting the mind to think along Tolkien style magic vs standard rpg magic.

HN

Thing is, there's no classes in this game. And at this point we've seen representatives of Men, Elves, Dwarves, and Halflings and while all have their subtle types of inherent magic, as I and hoplite point out, none have D&D type magic. Nor should they.

TOR is a game system built around Middle Earth, not adapted for Middle Earth like Rolemaster. And there's just not that much spellslinging in the books, outside of the Istari. And not even much for them!

Though much liked by some for its thorough supplement material, I never liked the magic in the ICE Merp system because of the over the top 'fireball/chain-lightning casting' aspect of the game. My point about the magic system was summed up by Caladan, I want it to be popular and succeed and strong sales go a long way towards this. Having said that, I do not wish the game to 'sell out' in the fashion of Merp, and it doesn't appear in danger of that.

Luke