Have anyone thought about have the mundane Men of Middle Earth worshipped the Valar?

Where there Men praying to Tulkas, Yavanna, Manwë and so on?

I don't think they do. I don't even think they know about the Valar. It is mostly a secular place, Middle Earth. I think when they feel like they need to pray to "someone", they want guidance or aid from their ancestors or folk heroes.

Middle-earth contained no true sense of worship. Eru, as a creator god, was the only true god in the standard sense that we think of within Tolkien's Middle-earth. However Eru did not seek to be worshiped in a formal or informal sense. This is also true of the Valar. So the normal forms of religious practice as seen in the real world don't appear in the books. There are no churches or temples, no holy scripture, holidays or festivals, etc. It should be noted that Eru or the Valar might rarely be revered by individuals or groups, but almost never worshiped. The Numenoriens did have a form of worship and it is the only true religion mentioned in all of the works, but even then I believe it was their choice to honor Eru as opposed to any type of mandate.

Melkor, and possibly Sauron, promoted the idea that they were all-powerful divine beings who should be worshiped. However these were all false religions found among the Men of Darkness (those who never tried to move westward and so were never affected by the knowledge or blessing of the divine). Despite having different names, spheres and practices for these false gods, all of these religions were tools to serve Evil.

Reverence for ancestors is a common thread, but there is little indication that it went as far as ancestor worship.

Those in the "West", i.e. within the Númenórean area of cultural influence (and political organization) are aware of the true nature of the Valar (i.e. that they are not gods). The "Dark Men" of Middle-earth and especially those under Sauron's influence worship the Dark Lord as god (either monotheistic or - dominant - deity in a pantheon, depending on time and culture).
The Númenóreans deem the worship of - false - gods and the acceptance of Eru and the Valar as what they are as an important divider.

Within the Realms-in-Exile for example, there are no temples, clerics, a clerical organization or other institutions with transcendental duties. The Dúnadan king is the only priest and given the authority to act as a link to Eru for his people.
There are certainly scholars or monastic-like organizations who observe necessary duties (e.g. burial rites) and preserve Númenórean cultural lore, but it is important to keep in mind that these do not act priestly (i.e. providing a spiritual link to the "higher powers") in any way.

In that way, the Northwest is a very special fantasy world with no temples and priests, except in "Shadow" realms.

Cheers
Tolwen

Aiya, mellon Khamul and fellow tolkiendili:

The mundane men of Middle-earth definetively worshiped the Valar. Orome (Araw) and Yavanna were favorites in Rhovanion. Actually, they were usually called "Gods", even if the elvish and númenorean theology recognize only "angelical" status to them, and as such as not worth worship.
It has been said that Middle-earth is a non-religious fantasy world. I recomend to take that with gloves. That is a theme that Chriss Seeman and Michael Hickmann tackled masterfully. I highly recomend to read their articles on Other Hand magazine #1, #7 and #8. A link to actualized copies of those is the following:
http://www.omzine.org/downloads/other-hands-magazine-archive
If you are interested in more, we could discuss it here.
All good to you all!

VACO

Thanks guys!

Looks like we should look into this as we have different oppinions at the moment, very interesting. Thanks for your knowledge guys.


/Khamul.

We also have to keep in mind Letter (in draft) #153 from September 1954.

Cheers
Tolwen

So a common man would know about the Valar or Valinor? Even in Rhovanion or Eriador? How would they have such information?

IMO very likely not all the fine details like names and especially the associated deep lore, but the important basics: The Valar/Powers in a distant land to the West are no gods but created beings and are not to be worshipped, but may be revered or called upon in need. There is only one god, far away beyond the circles of the world. The names that these people give to the beings in the land far away are different than the Sindarin or Quenya names of course (e.g. 'Araw' instead of 'Oromë'), though that is but a label.
From this, there may - and probably are - several grades of ignorance up to the other extreme of worshipping Sauron as a god. So, the farther a culture goes towards clergy, organized religion, temples etc., the closer they get to the Shadow.
The knowledge of these above mentioned basics is - IMHO - the result of centuries of Númenórean cultural and political influence in the Northwest. It spread through through trade, diplomacy and all other contacts that men have in their interactions.

Cheers
Tolwen

My understanding (in brief as the topic prompts much discussion)-
the average man of 3rdAge Middle-Earth (a crofter visiting Bree, a sheep-herder on the southern slopes of Ered Nimrais, a Woodsman in the Anduin Vale, etc) does not know about The Valar, the name 'Eru' nor about a mystical land over the sea in the West, to which some Elves may 'retire'. To most 'everyday' men even the Elves are nigh myth, rarely encountered. (Some locales excepted, such as Esgaroth & Dale). Just look at the Rohirrim faerie-tales about the fey witch of the Golden Wood.

As discussed by Tolwen & Garn, religion is not a formal establishment in the lives of 3rdAge Men, and hence no churches or temples. Those who DO choose to practice ritual and propitiate some concept of deity are walking into Shadow.

The 'enlightened' folks who are aware of the histories and the tales of Valar, the First Age, Beleriand, etc tend to acknowledge such influences in their lives ... more like holding a philosophical belief rather than religious dogma. Veneration of heroes would be more commonplace then religious belief .... for example some remnant of the legend of Earendil would continue to be passed down generations.... "That's right young Aramir, the Star of Earendil will guide you back to shore..."

In game terms I think various Lore skills would inform on such histories & myths in relevant ways, though Old Lore would probably provide widest knowledge of tales of previous ages, Beleriand, the Utmost West, the Valar, etc.
.... IMHO

Could someone put these quotes in religious/non-religious context? I'm not so clear on what the belief system entails.



‘Is it not enough to know that they are servants of the Enemy?’ answered Gildor. ‘Flee them! Speak no words to them! They are deadly. Ask no more of me! But my heart forbodes that, ere all is ended, you, Frodo son of Drogo, will know more of these fell things than Gildor Inglorion. May Elbereth protect you!’



‘Look!’ he cried; and stooping he lifted from the ground a black cloak that had lain there hidden by the darkness. A foot above the lower hem there was a slash. ‘This was the stroke of Frodo’s sword,’ he said. ‘The only hurt that it did to his enemy, I fear; for it is unharmed, but all blades perish that pierce that dreadful King. More deadly to him was the name of Elbereth.’


'He stood still enchanted, while the sweet syllables of the Elvish song fell like clear jewels of blended word and melody. ‘It is a song to Elbereth,’ said Bilbo. ‘They will sing that, and other songs of the Blessed Realm, many times tonight. Come on!’



‘Elbereth Gilthoniel!’ sighed Legolas as he looked up. Even as he did so, a dark shape, like a cloud and yet not a cloud, for it moved far more swiftly, came out of the blackness in the South, and sped towards the Company, blotting out all light as it approached. Soon it appeared as a great winged creature, blacker than the pits in the night.

They all refer to Elbereth, whose name is often invoked as a blessing for those who cannot see the way, seek succour against darkness, revere starlight, etc.... not so much a religious incantation or prayer, more of an inspirational plea or oath.
The examples are all quotes made by Elves educated in 'Old Lore', or individuals educated in 'Old Lore' in Elrond's halls of learning (ie: Aragorn & Bilbo).
Just my take on it .... but I hope that helps

For a religious context, I believe Tolkien likened the veneration of Elbereth to that of the Theotokos (the Virgin Mary). As Tolwen already mentioned, Elbereth's power, like Mary's, is derivative from God/Eru. Nevertheless, believers consider it efficacious to ask Elbereth for assistance since she is clearly favoured by the One. She is certainly worthy of honour.

I considered an explanation of Catholic and Orthodox teaching regarding the saints, but that discussion is probably not germane to this forum!

In all four quoted passages, you are referring to Elbereth Gilthoniel, a female Valar, also known as Varda, Queen of the Valar and spouse of Manwe. (Although in the 3rd instance the quote is about a song about Elbereth rather than the personage directly.) Her name is generally mentioned as Elbereth (Sindarin: Star-queen) and is frequently invoked as a ward against Evil (of the Melkor, Sauron and their underlings variety, not the foibles of humanity).

During the creation of Arda (all of the world of Middle-earth including portions off-stage from the written works) the world was lit by a couple of light sources (Lamps, Trees). In each case Melkor destroyed the light source and thought that he had succeeded in plunging Arda into darkness, only to find that Elbereth managed to fashion another light source. Melkor never did overcome his fear and hatred for the light, in any form, or the Valar who kept humbling him.

Elbereth's name is invoked because, being a Valar it was once possible for such an invocation to be heard and fulfilled. The Valar have withdrawn from the world by choice, not by Eru's command or ban, so it is conceivable for Elbereth to fulfill the prayer. Considering Melkor doesn't follow the rules, it is logical to him that she might not either. Ultimately the use of her name is similar, religiously, to asking for a saint or angel to intercede on the invoker's prayer.

But it works in a much more commonplace manner, one that most of us have personally experienced. One sibling (the victim) yelling "Mooooom!" while another sibling (the instigator) performs an offensive action. No matter what the guilty sibling is doing, they are going to pause for just a second to see if they've been discovered and are about to suffer the wrath of an overwhelming force.

BTW, a careful reading of LotR shows that their is still some divine response to the darkness of Evil in the form of light. The statue of the Fallen King and the shaft of sunlight seen during the fighting come to mind.

This post has been edited by Garn on Jan 3 2013, 06:33 AM

I have to say I was going to respond in a similar manner to Mordagnir. The Virgin Mary is a great real world example of a venerated name that is not of a deity.

Perhaps it's splitting hairs, but as Tolwen already noted, the power of the Valar is derivative. Elbereth would not "fulfill" a prayer, but simply intercede on the supplicant's behalf with the One. Any other reading would, I think, be contrary to the Professor's intent and certainly antithetical to his religious beliefs.

I concur with what was said above: Tolkien was a firmly believing catholic. He tried not to mimic Catholicism in his work (he detested allegory as such), but still he was building his fictional world on basis of principles he believed to be true (as every author has to do in some degree – if he wants his work to be understandable and rational). So the principles of supernatural world are in many occasions similar to those contained in catholic belief: one good and almighty creator God, other supernatural creatures are created and so not worthy of worship, one of those beings marring the world in a way that is curable only by very particular act of Creator himself, entering his creation (Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth). The lesser supernatural beings, of angelic character, having dominion over specific areas of creation and hearing and heeding the pleas of natural beings – that is very similar to the idea of catholic saints, as was said.

However the principles translated in the world in a specific way: we only know of one rite of specific worship of Creator, and that was held on Númenor. Tolkien himself said (if I remember correctly) that the religion of mortals in ME is of more material way: they didn’t fight the evil in spiritual realm but rather in physical realm, battling the evil angels and their minions. Many characters seemed to be “believing” in specific supernatural concepts: tainting power of evil, overcoming power of good, importance of holding to moral values even when the price of death has to be paid, duty of everyone to battle the evil, power of Creators angles to help, and power of Creator himself to take care of the course of history and to steer it to a good end.

It is explicitly said that worshiping of created beings is an evil act, which IMO should translate into TOR’s mechanics However I believe that more educated folk could pray to Valar for protection in same fashion as Catholics pray to their saints, as was said above.

Mordagnir,
If someone invokes Elbereth and feels that she has responded, whether she did so directly or interceded with Eru is of minor importance. Their prayer was answered.

I understand that ultimately Elbereth/Varda is not the source of the power to fulfill the request, but she is the one making the decision and doing the hand-waving. Or making the decision to have a servitor do it. In any case she bears responsibility for the action. I say her because Eru says as the Valar enter into Ea and realize that Arda does not exist, that he has given them the power and the responsibility for creating the world. We know her sphere of influence is light and that Evil (Melkor, Ungolliant, etc) has always been afraid of the light.

It seems unlikely that having given the Valar the power to perform their duties Eru would then revoke their abilities. Particularly since, at the end of the Song, Eru tells Melkor straight out that each and every part of the Song was just a portion of the whole and that in each and every way, Melkor's actions would serve Eru's will and purpose. Including the cacophony Melkor incited amongst the Choir. If Melkor, who is actively rebelling, cannot get away with anything it seems unlikely that an obedient Valar is going to get away with breaking the rules, either. Thus whether she personally fulfills wishes or not, it's still Eru's power and will.

At least, that's my opinion.

We have to keep another point in mind when discussing the Valar as beings not to be worshipped as well as their influence on Middle-earth and reactions on pleas from Elves or Men.
This is their role in the appointed guardianship of creation. They were given authority (and the duty) by Eru to make a habitation (=Arda) for his Children. Thus they are only guardians of the world. They opposed Morgoth forcibly since he strove to gain dominion over this habitation (and ultimately, the Children of Eru).
They are not allowed to influence the free will of the Children by displays of their majesty or overwhelming power (and thus suggesting they would be willing to solve the Children's problems so easily). Ever when they tried to meddle directly in the affairs of the Children (even if only with the best intentions), it ultimately led to a disaster. Therefore they decided to act only indirectly against Sauron in the Third Age by sending the Istari in humble forms. They were explicitly forbidden to show or use their power and should act as advisors so that the Free People would rally together against the Shadow.

With respect to the Valar granting pleas for help, we must keep this commandment for the Valar in mind. They are not allowed to solve the problems of the Children for them. The maximum allowed (thus the Istari mission) is to deal with threats that are clearly beyond the capabilities of the Children (e.g. the case of Gandalf's fight against the Balrog).
At the most hints or indirect support (the stars shining bright, a fresh wind from the west etc.) that support the determination and will to persevere are things one can expect on a plea. Kind of subtle moral support rather than flashy "Holy Hand Grenades of Antioch" if you know what I mean.

EDIT: So it is not only a question of faith, knowledge or worship (and prayers) on the side of men (a more philosophical question about the creation of organized religion as a clear sign of the Shadow). It also has a very practical aspect to it, e.g. what the Valar are willing to grant (or not) as a response to pleas (or prayers). IMO they are unlikely to respond to "real" prayers in any way, due to their perception of their own role (and thus not encouraging someone in doing a wrong thing). Due to the aforementioned reasons, more than a sign or moral support is not very likely (IMHO almost nil) in any case. The Valar watch the enfolding of Middle-earth's history and their interaction there in the Third Age is so indirect that it can always be seen as a coincidence with a very "natural" explanation (e.g. the wind blowing away Sauron's clouds). In any case, it will almost have a positive psychological effect on the Free Peoples witnessing (and hoping for it) though.

Cheers
Tolwen

Interesting topic. In Decipher's game, a character could call on the Valar for a slight bonus (something subtle, though, as Tolwen just suggested), but it had to be role-played correctly (a PC calling out the name of the appropriate Valar in the right circumstances). Or something along those lines.

In all our years of playing the game I never saw a PC use it.

Mechanically: Invoke the name of the Valar of your choice and roll the Feat die.
Gandalf Rune - Something good happens (GMs Discretion), spend 1 Hope.
1-10 - nothing happens
Eye - Something bad happens (GMs Discretion)

But personally, I would probably just go with good roleplaying. If I and the other players are suitably impressed, the player spends a point of hope and something good happens (Sun breaks out of clouds, wind blows the foul reek of a troll away, etc).
Or in a really dire situation, Manwe sends the lord of the eagles to pluck you and your companions out of bunch of burning trees.

I guess I should have mentioned that I know who Elbereth/Varda is. I was just curious how throwing her name around is/isn't tied to a religious hierarchy.

That's a good point you made, Tolwen. Worth thinking about. Thanks!

I want to correct myself: the articles are on OH #2,#8 & #9.

Aiya, mellyn tolkiendili:

I was a catholic myself and I can tell for certainly that people worship the Virgin Mary and all the Saints, no matter what the official doctrine says. The whole evangelic churches throw this on the face of the catholic church.

I think that the problem here is that we are not talking about the same thing here. It seems to me that you are talking about hierachic, elitist religious organizations, with temples and consecrated priests. But religion is much more than that. Religion is also what the little people believe and celebrate, independently of what the big people do and say. Religion is an idea, not an institution.

I think the point is not IF there is religion in Middle-earth, but WHAT KIND of religion we are talking about.
Tolkien writes about the Valar:

The logic here is clear for me: the Elves and the educated Men (Númenóreans) know of the angelical nature of the Valar, but other Men do not and have worshiped the Valar as Gods. They do not need for that knowledge of Valinor and the elaborated elvish theology. In fact it requires a certain ignorance of it.
The good peoples had almost no institutionalized religious organizations and their faith were expresed in more simple ways.
Namarie

VACO

I'm curious how poor catechesis amongst some Catholics -- mirrored in most religions, I daresay -- and your own personal experience with the Catholic Church is relevant to deciphering Professor Tolkien's explanation of worship in Middle-earth. Naturally, each of us will describe religion and worship in our TOR campaigns as we deem appropriate, but I don't think it's unreasonable to cleave closely to what the author wrote, at least as a starting point.

Similarly, I would caution you against too rigid a definition of religion. Clearly, what that term means to you is not what it may mean to others. In fact, the Oxford Online Dictionary includes the following for religion: "a particular system of faith and worship." That strongly suggests that "religion" can very easily be interpreted as an "institution," to use your word.

Aye- there'll be quite varied opinions on how much influence the Valar will have in the lives of 3rdAge TOR Player-Heroes.
I concur with Tolwen's view on the level of interaction. I also think an appropriate skill (eg: Old Lore) be tested for the Hero to apply some knowledge of the Valar, etc. to obtain some narrative effect (be it attracting a favourable breeze, catching a heartening sunbeam, enhancing the healing properties of KingsFoil, evoking starlight from a phial of Galadriel's water, etc).
IMO in the Prof's stories those characters who invoked the Valar etc had picked up relevant lore in their backgrounds (eg: Aragorn & Bilbo in Imladris). I don't think that Boromir, for eg, knew of Tulkas to invoke him in battle.
I'm of the school of thought that 'less is more' when involving any influence by the Valar in a TOR game... the rarer it is - the more specia/miraculous it be.

Again as per Tolwen, I believe that in the 3rdAge the most overt activity of the Valar to influence Eru's creation (& protect his Children) was to send the Istari on mission of subtle influence & inspiration. (As we know- Olorin remained most true to that). Other subtle agents in the 3rdAge include the tangible blessings of Valinor & lineage (eg: Galadriel, Elrond, Aragorn), pls those Maiar &supernatural nature spirits still active in Endor (eg: Bombadil, Fangorn, Shadowfax, etc).

My point is that the 'magic' & blessings of Eru/Valar are not so much invoked by folks through conscious religion, but are more a function of the wondrous nature of Middle-Earth itself... the rich, enchanted land AND also the subtle play of coincidence & serendipity (eg: what fated a unique Hobbit to pass through a deep cavern under a faraway mountain &find the key to removing Melkor's greatest stain on the world... and all that ensued!)

I think you're spot on with your "less is more" approach, CheeseWyrm. If a character wishes to ask for help from Elbereth, Tulkas, or Uinen MIGHT get a circumstance bonus on an Inspire check, for example, if properly role-played and appropriate to the character and situation. I think Words of the Wise also captures this nicely, with inexplicable reasons for hope when G-runes are rolled.

Any sort of reliable mechanical access to divine aid stops feeling like Tolkien and starts feeling like a generic fantasy RPG.

I think the examples you propose show no religious cultus by themselves, but they do indirectly show that such a religious belief system exist in the background.
I know not how much actual "power" I would recognize to these, but Aragorn seems to think them efectiver than a barrow-downs sword.
Namarie, mellon Evening!

I think this kind of religious special ability is easily applicable to Middle-earth without disbalancing the game nor breaking the feeling of the setting.
In my oppinion allowing any kind of mechanical bonuses based only on the capacity of calling the name of Varda can break the balance and end with an over-devout group of player characters yelling "Varda! Varda!" because they can get a bonus from it.
But after all in Middle-earth there exist the adjective -ndil (as in Aulendil) to describe an special worship/devotion relationship with one Valar. It means literally "lover of", and does not represent the higher scala of devotion. It does represent a deep relation with the teachings of such a Valar, and there are recorded cases were this -ndili formed guilds and other organized forms of fellowships (like the Uninendili in Númenor)
In my opinion we could tie any kind of bonuses this special state of devotion to the character Virtues (after all, the game mechanics allow the same kind of boni for almost any other cause, so long as you "earn" them with experience points). This boni should be tied to some specific skill and/or situation, and have the prerequisite of "Old lore". But most important: it requires the approbation of the Loremaster for the right circunstance (it is and stays a "favor" from the Valar, and is never "authomatically"). It's effects could be to throw twice the feat die and take the best one, to add a succes die, to get a free attribute bonus or to get a free damage bonus. The character invokes this power by invoking the name of the Valar, once per scene.
Here are some suggestions of how to apply this:
Manwendili: (Prerequisite: Old Lore) Apply a bonus to any one Awe, Inspiration or Persuade roll.
Vardandili: (Prerequisite: Old Lore) Apply a free damage bonus to one attack roll against a creature with the special ability Hate sunlight, Creature of the dark or Black magic. Or apply a bonus to any one Perception roll done in darkness.
Ulmondili: (Prerequisite: Old Lore) Apply a bonus to any one Athletics, Travel or Craft roll on water. Or to any one Song roll.
Etc., etc., etc.
Namarie

VACO

What is the actual difference between worship and devotion? One greater, the another weaker? One to real God(s), the other for (created) spiritual beings? The existence of temples and hierarchical structures?
I think there exist no clear cut border, and any cathegorization is dependent of the dogma that wants to justify some interpretation.
Think of it: maybe the Virgin and the Saints are only intercesors before God, but if they are the ones who answer then it is to them that people pray. Let time pass without no one remembering them that it is "God" really who answer them, and they will forget it. Let people of Middle-earth to learn by themselves, and probably they will only see the existence of the Powers.
Coming back to Middle-earth we can follow the above criteria (strength of devotion, god status, temples):
1) In M-e there seems that the "strenght" of worship is inverse in M-e, if not in Valinor.
2) The Valar were called Gods by the peoples of Middle-earth, no matter of their "created" status.
3) Maybe there are no temples in Middle-earth, but there are plenty of holy and hallowed places. Maybe there are no priests, but there are plenty of followers and guilds. Maybe there is no church, but there are plenty of festivals and (religiose) rituals.

Hi Vaco, I have queries/comments on your points:
1- I don't get your meaning on this one - please elaborate.
2- yes the Valar have been called 'Gods' by some of the folk of M-E, but it's my understanding that neither veneration - nor even knowledge - of these 'Gods' plays a role in the day to day lives of 3rdAge Children of Eru. IMO knowledge of The Valar would likely be possessed by a learned minority, or those who've lived across Ages (and thus possess such lore through experience).
3- I'm interested to understand your thoughts here. Would you mind providing some examples of:
a) holy & hallowed places in M-E
b ) followers & guilds(*) that revere the Valar 'Gods'
(* how do you see guilds fitting into the Valar-worship picture?)
c) religious rituals & festivals

I don't mean to sound pedantic, but perhaps I've missed something. I'd like to better understand your comments.

Aiya, mellon Cheesewyrm:

Gladly.
Let's begin with point 3:

a) holly & hallowed places in M-E

The upper vales of the Sirion were described as under the protection of Ulmo, until the power of Morgoth forced him out. The pool of Túrin (I remember not the name) was "defiled". The mounds of the Rohirrim were holy with their niphrethil flowers. The Haladin had a holy judgement stone and meeting place. The black stone of Erech. Tol-Morwen, or the tomb of Túrin and Níniel. And my breath fails before having the feeling of having named them all.
If you take a look, it is what is called "the subtle magic of Middle-earth".
b ) followers and guilds
The Aulendili, or followers of Aule. Their most know "guild" were the Gwaith-i-mírdain.
The Uinendili, the Guild of Venturers, in Númenor. There are reports of elaborated rituals in honor of Uinen for protection of the ships before going out to the sea.
And I cannot but see the House of Healers as a kind of guild for the Estendili [but of course this last is just interpretation]
c) religious rituals and festivals

The prayer of Faramir in the Window to the West.
If you want more and ample examples, I recommend to read the articles of Chris Seeman and Michael Hickman.

The Valar are the Powers, and they manifested not just through the teachings of the Calaquendi. They are the world and they manifest through it. So that any creature can perceive their power and their nature. What they do not is receive a complete cathequesis like the Elves in Valinor, so they supposedly cannot have a complete comprension of the Valar as Spiritual Beings. So they call them Gods and venerate them.
Does this explanation sounds logic to you?
It is not explicit in Tolkien writings, but is my conclusion after a lengthy analysis and discussion about magic in Middle-earth. And even if it is not canon I have found many indications in this way, and none in contradiction.
All good to you!
Namarie

VACO

And I forgot to mention that the Men of Middle-earth had another teachers than the High Elves of Beleriand: the Avari Elves, Dwarves and many, many lesser maia spirits with whom they could have contact in the time of their forefathers. And stories are transmited from generation to generation, changing with time.

In another topic Faire mentioned The New Shadow found in HOME vol. 12.

I hadn't gotten to volume 12 yet, but I was very curious so I pulled it off the shelf. While reading 'The New Shadow', which is set 100 years after Aragorn's death, I came across this:


Borlas, a man of Gondor is given this question:

"To trees all Men are Orcs. Do Men consider the fulfilment of the life-story of a tree before they cut it down? For whatever purpose: to have its room for tilth, to use its flesh as timber or as fuel, or merely to open the view? If trees were the judges,would they set Men above Orcs, or indeed above the cankers and blights? What more right, they might ask, have Men to feed on their juices than blights?"


Borlas responds with:

"You spoke of the judgement of trees in these matters. But trees are not judges. The children of the One are the masters. My judgement as one of them you know already.The evils of the world were not at first in the great Theme, but entered with the discords of Melkor. Men did not come with these discords; they entered afterwards as a new thing direct from Eru, the One, and therefore they are called His children, and all that was in the Theme they have, for their own good, the right to use - rightly, without pride or wantonness, but with reverence."



For an average citizen of Gondor, he seems to be very familiar with the tenets of Eru.

I agree in principle in the sense that he's a bit too well educated for the average citizen.

On the other hand, he is effectively the offspring of the Men of Westernesse (Numenor) and they were the most enlightened of all men. Considering both Gondor and Arnor were settled by the Faithful, holding fast to the Valar and Eru rather than succumbing to the temptations of Sauron, the general sentiment is understandable.