My group are currently going through Tales of Wilderland. They have started the Crossing of the Celduin and will soon be tackling The Watch On The Heath!

Avoiding spoilers, I'd just like to say that I see little hope of them surviving both of those adventures.

And I don't mean all of them surviving... I mean any of them! Unless they have some amazing dice luck (which would be unusual for them).

Not only are there some nasty adversaries to deal with, but the average Hope to Shadow gap has fallen to 8 and the journeys are going through some Shadow Infested areas!

It's a party of four, three of which started together (one of the originals met his doom in Don't Leave The Path... the Attercops got him), so they have some good skills, weapon skills and 2's and 3's in Valour & Wisdom.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not averse to a TPK, but this really is looking like the sort of situation where a certain captain from a famous TV show would be reprogramming the simulation!

Has any LM already completed Tales Of Wilderland?

If so, how did their party do?

And what would they do different if they tackled it again?

I don't have TfW, but the only thing I could suggest is to divert the adventure path a bit with a side adventure, something of medium adventure difficulty, meant as a means of wasting time and forcing the Company to fully recover as a byproduct.

Maybe some petty noble has to be humored and provided an escort through the area, despite having two dozen Wardens and a dozen Slayers in her guard escort. You could always make it a more cerebral challenge, rather than physical, say she has the ear of some far, far more powerful patron whom the Company has to get something from. The only way through is to humor her. Except, maybe she is far more cunning than the Company realizes and is acting in a manner meant to reveal their worth. Can the Company rise to the challenge?

As for the ultimate goal for this challenge, maybe the noble holds title to lands that they most traverse. Or a necessary resource is in the noble's control. Maybe the noble just wants to be re-assured that the Company is going to deal with the problem once and for all - not just stir things up. Maybe the noble is a potential Patron and uses the lady "screen his calls" so to speak, removing less than sterling gallants bent on fame without effort. Or he has control of a Sanctuary.

Anyway, that is as much as I can suggest at present.

That won't work I'm afraid Garn, not how the last two adventures are written.

No time for a Fellowship Phase between the final two adventures, as the villains endgame is in play. I will allow them to stockpile their Advancement Points though, as it's two adventures really, so any survivors will have points to spend.

They do get time to fully recover Endurance between the two adventures, it's just that things get real nasty in the last one, especially if you don't have hope to save your ass and they have a dwindling supply.

I'll be interested to see how it plays out and will update when the final adventure is over and done with.

If they all die... that will be interesting for Wilderland! And their replacement heroes will have some daunting challenges to overcome, but the One Ring does have heroic legacy rules to give the new guys a boost!

You could have Gandalf prop up their Hope scores. Inspiring heroes to do the impossible is his gimmick.

Too easy! And they will come to think that they will be saved next time.

Having had time to think about it... I will run it as is it was intended.

If they die... they die!

But I may give any survivors a boost to Hope for overcoming the odds... assuming they survive and win... not survive and run away!

As written, the two scenarios following straight on from each other are quite harsh. Do your characters have experience to spend? Have they got enough to increase their Wisdom and take the Confidence Mastery?

And what is wrong with believing they will be saved? There is no guarantee, just a fools hope. Bad things may happen and the world will never be the same, but surviving through extreme adversity creates a deeper character. Perhaps the goal should be to teach players to believe, instead of despair after calculating the risks.

I understand your thought process, however. You don't want players to feel invincible unnecessarily. But, I don't think that would be the case if Gandalf were to inspire them with a speech (bolstering their Fellowship points). They would still face a huge challenge ahead, even with the points.

Let me suggest an idea to overcome your fears. If you were to send Gandalf to inspire them before a certain doom scenario (which would be an unusual way to gain Fellowship points), maybe you could impose long-lasting scars on them as well. This would illustrate the losses of a hero that has seen his fair share of hardship and battle.

For example, for every Fellowship point a player-hero spends that Gandalf supplies, he should choose one of the following:

• Permanently lose 1 point of starting Endurance
• Permanently decrease starting Hope by 1 point
• Suffer the loss of a Reward
• Suffer the loss of a Virtue

These losses should be narrated at the Loremaster's request and at the appropriate time. For most losses, this will take place after a battle or encounter. But, it can also be dramatic and appropriate to break a special weapon over the head of an enemy when a Gandalf Fellowship point is spent. I realise that to lose a Reward is to go directly against the rulebook [page 136 of the AB says, Upgraded items enjoy a certain degree of ‘plot immunity’; they should never be lost, broken or in any way be taken from a character.], but I think this would be a very special circumstance because of the unusual bolstering of Fellowship points.

So, you see, in this way, the heroes are given Hope, but it comes at a cost. Their lives may be spared, but they are worn down after walking into a situation that was doomed to fail. Heroes that suffer these kinds of losses would complain that they are starting to feel old. This is a different effect than Corruption, which leads to Flaws.

Only other thing I can think of is to add a one time Hope Bonus. Weave some positive, but short duration, event into the story that grants a minor (+2?) Hope increase.

Gandalf, traveling through as he's involved in other events, notices the Company's downtrodden spirits and speaks to them for a moment, improving their Hope, but then heads off to his own tasks.

Maybe the Company receives word of an NPC from a previous adventure has fully recovered, gotten married, or some other life affirming event.

I have had the same concerns for my characters. In one of the adventures I ran the Company had overspent hope and really been beaten down by Shadow, in part due to an obstacle I set that was a stretch for the group. Most of the party gave up, but one character completed the task in spite of the risk but ended up Miserable.

To balance the scene a powerful NPC made the Company a special tea. One of the characters made his Lore and realized it was Athelas. It restored d3 hope for each player. I have also had a couple of moments in my games where the Company overcame a great foe and looked up to notice the sun rising in the East and the retreat of Shadow give them a point of Hope.

As long as you work it into the story, I like the idea of the Grey Pilgrim or even Radagast, Beorn or one of the Kings (Tharnduil, Bard, Dain) motivating the players and giving them Hope.

I think your players would appreciate a little assistance more than a TPK and you blaming the adventure.

Just my opinion.

I wouldn't say I was blaming the adventure as such, but it does get nasty!

And my players have made it quite clear that want the risk of death present.

I told them that it gets dangerous and I believe it unlikely that they will all survive, especially with their dice luck, but they don't want to be 'unkillable'.

There is no dice fudging in my games. No rolling behind the screen. Dice are rolled for all to see and the consequences of failure known.

To be fair, my dice rolling is poor at times. I seem to roll poorly on attacks, but seldom do monster fail protection rolls vs wounds!

And they still have 5 sips of Mirkwood Cordial at their disposal!

That is exactly the way I run games too. I have never had a problem, as long as the consequences for failure are known.

To be clear Garbar, my statement about "blaming the adventure" read much more accusatory than I intended.

I just meant, I always feel free to modify the adventures to both make them easier and harder based on the play at the table.

I also believe in not fudging dice and try to roll everything out front, I feel it adds something to the experience and no one ever feels like your picking on them or pulling punches.

As a side note, the final creature TfW on p. 150 is sooooo much nastier in play than it reads in the adventure (and it reads nasty). I was running a playtest of a one off (Con Game) with advanced pre-gen characters, all with 12-18 Experience points spent and I used that creature as a template for a Shadow creature in my adventure and it was WAY too much for the Characters. I had to dial it back during the combat and give it less endurance.

I am also running TfW with my regular group and they are about to begin Those Who Tarry No Longer. I am looking forward to reading your feedback on your experiences and any suggestions you might have.

Yep! That's the dude I was concerned about. Failing that protection test is extremely bad!

They need to make a good impression on page 148-149.

The Tolerance for that encounter will be a 2 and getting that 5+ in conclusions is asking a lot, but may make the difference in the final battle.

And no problem with the 'accusatory' comment. My tone in the topic may have come across as a bit whiny to be honest, implying that I must run as written, which is clearly not true, as everyone runs pre-written adventures differently and I have made some tweaks during the TfW campaign.

However, making the 'big bad' an 'bit of a wimp' will make the entire campaign anticlimactic, which is certainly to be avoided.

I think the players would rather die fighting than win easily!

Templar72,
Athelas would actually be a great way to restore Hope. One that is completely appropriate to the setting as it is supposed to exude an aroma of wholesomeness.

Drinking it as a tea would probably be the optimal way to administer it as well. Although I think it would be less effective cooked into food (ie, chicken soup, glazed ham, seasoned rice, etc). Too much chemical breakdown and mixing of constituent parts among the various ingredients. Maybe if cooked treat it as though it's bruised / old.

A great idea.

To continue the support of Gandalf as a source of special Hope when facing certain doom, I turn to Tolkien in ROTK. Gandalf addresses Denethor...

'...the rule of no realm is mine, neither of Gondor nor any other, great or small. But all worthy things that are in peril as the world now stands, those are my care. And for my part, I shall not wholly fail of my task, though Gondor should perish, if anything passes through this night that can still grow fair or bear fruit and flower again in days to come. For I also am a steward. Did you not know?'

Shortly thereafter, Pippin speaks...

'Are you angry with me, Gandalf?' he said, as their guide went out and closed the door. 'I did the best I could.'

'You did indeed!' said Gandalf, laughing suddenly; and he came and stood beside Pippin, putting his arm about the hobbit's shoulders, and gazing out of the window. Pippin glanced in some wonder at the face now close beside his own, for the sound of that laugh had been gay and merry. Yet in the wizard's face he saw at first only lines of care and sorrow; though as he looked more intently he perceived that under all there was a great joy; a fountain of mirth enough to set a kingdom laughing, were it to gush forth.'

Even amidst dark times, there is a well of great joy to be seen in Gandalf's face; enough to set a kingdom laughing. He is the steward of all worthy things in peril.

Good ol' Gandalf.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure that he (Olorin) was a Maia spirit of hope & inspiration, formerly from the Gardens of Lorien in Valinor and tasked with the mission (by Manwe?) to venture forth to Endor to bring succor to Eru's children.
With that in mind - I certainly feel comfortable with Gandalf being able to restore Hope..... He is in essence a spirit of hope.

That said - remember that generally it was Gandalf's way to subtly influence folks - his very nature was to inspire people to be better or to reach good outcomes, rather than be all flashy, powerful and an obvious agent of change. (Obviously his M.O. altered when he took on the white mantle).
I think Gandalf's restorative actions would take subtle guise, rather than be overt gestures.
Perhaps his wise words would come to mind when sorely needed, or - to use the excellent Athelas suggestion - perhaps he has been gently educating a player-Hero in the appreciation of a KingsFoil tea ceremony (or gifted them with tea-pot decorated with the ceremony steps?)

Good ol' Gandalf - what a legendary hero he was to complete his mission whilst staying true to his brief, where the more flashy powermongering agents failed (read Curunir/Saruman).

Gandalf's also got the Ring of Fire, which he "may wield for the kindling of all hearts to courage". For a slightly flashier but still subtle Hope boost, the characters might see something glimmering like a spark on his hand for an instant.

Game was called off last week, but tonight the party reach the Crossings of Celduin.

Does doom await?

Or will they make it through to the final adventure in Tales From Wilderland?

Although Gandalf won't be making an appearance to inspire them, I may allow the rising of the sun as 'The Last Day' dawns to do so.

Using quote at the top of LB 28 as a guide, a successful Awareness will grant a point of Hope and if i'm feeling generous, I will allow the hopeful individual to Inspire his companions or Sing a cheery song, to boost their morale too.

I have converted Gerold the Beorning and Galia the Elf into NPC's who will turn up during the battle, just in case some of the PC's fall, to keep the players active in the climax of the adventure (generating a character while others fight on is both distracting and dissatisfying for everyone).

Will update tomorrow if I get time....

Edit: And here is the update... but be warned... spoilers may appear!

We ran out of time and had to pause as the Gibbet King arrived, but the fight was a bit tedious until then.

Wave 1 was quite easy. However the boss did hurl his spear (skill 2) at the hobbit archer with his cocky defence of 19... getting an eye and a 6 for a satisfying amount of damage to weary him in one hit.

Wave 2 they were lucky and killed the main bad guy quickly.

Wave 3 with the random opponents was the dullest bit, as there was no feel of any progress, just roll, kill or not kill and occasionally (very occasionally take damage).

One of the party took a goblin arrow and was poisoned, so he is blind for the rest of the day.

I'm not planning on putting any big battles in my own adventures, as they just don't seem to work very well. Too much dice rolling! But if I need to, I'll do any future mass battles as background with the heroes having a small skirmish.

The Hope to Shadow gap is now 6, 6, 7 & 8.

I think they'll make it through this, but unless I go easy on them in the final adventure... they're still doomed.

Ok, I'm a bit late, but good to hear the update. I was wondering what happened with regards to your campaign.

They made it through the final battle with the Gibbet King, defeating him quite easily to be honest, with the Beorning doing the brunt of the work.

As there is no Fellowship Phase between the final two adventures, they healed up, stored the experience and advancement points, then went straight to the next adventure.

Now that's a nasty journey! By the end of it, most of the party had accrued some serious shadow points. Two of them are within one point of their slightly depleted Hope score, another is two points away and the fourth is moderately sane with an eight point gap.

The encounter on page 146 of TfW went quite badly, with both of the best melee combatants knocked out, but unwounded. Great Size with thick skin and an underlined armour rating makes for a foe that is very difficult to wound... It was almost the end of them! Luckily, they had some Mirkwood Cordial left to give them a boost, but only two doses remain.

So now they have to deal with the greatest threat(s) to Wilderland with low health and borderline Hope/Shadow...

To be continued!

Yeah, I'm about to start running TfW and I'm pretty concerned about how survivable the last scenario is, coming on right on the heels of the Crossing of Celduin.

Oh, boy! Our group just started TfW, from what I just read I think my Woodman will go back to the Vale of Anduin, now.

Don't be put off by me! We're having a lot of fun with the game, but I just don't think they will all survive the final two adventures.

To be fair, I expected them to die at Celduin, but they survived.

And thus far in my campaign, no one has gone mad, so we are looking forwards to that happening. Yes, I mean we! The players are eager to see how bouts of madness work too!

Good chance we will finish up next week and I will let you know how things go... avoiding spoilers where possible, which I have been trying to do in this thread!

The good news is, even if they all die, there are legacy character rules and the players do want to play more of TOR.

The Barding in the party has the 'Birthright' Virtue, which is basically an extra life, so he may survive... however, he can pass that virtue on to his next character instead and stay dead, which he will do if the entire party gets killed. [Printed out four more character sheets... just in case ]

And who says the Vale of Anduin is safe? If the party in my campaign fail, all of Wilderland is in trouble and I might sent the villains to your campaign world so mine doesn't get destroyed

Looking forward to hearing about your final session. I've posted how I might adapt the campaign for when I run it in a couple of weeks over in the Tales from Wilderland thread.

I'm considering seeding some aids for the last scenario along the way: a hint about the nature of dragons from the Lord of the Eagles, replacing the gift of Elf-friend from Irimë with something to help them through their Corruption tests, and making it a bit easier for them to get past the Snow Trolls without being spotted or having to fight to the death.

As someone who's now run the whole campaign, your feedback would be really helpful.

I have been giving some thought to the Corruption tests and I wonder if the journey during the last adventure of TfWpredated the 'Concerning Blight Places - A Clarification' thread that Francesco started....

http://cubicle7.clicdev.com/f/index.php?tr...&showtopic=2947

That would explain why their Shadow Point total has shot up so much.

If you're considering a gift from Ireme, I suggest something akin to 'A Light in Dark Places' that was given to Frodo by Lady Galadriel in LotR. Could be used to assist their Corruption rolls perhaps or maybe 'Hinder' shadow enemies in combat.

And as for the troll... just reduce the number and that 'Favoured Armour' rating makes it so hard for them to take a wound.

Good point. It's also slightly unclear if the Corruption Tests section on TfW, p.145 is referring to the Grey Mountains or the Whithered Heath beyond.

Yeah, something similar to the Light in Dark Places was what I was thinking of too: "Instead of Elf-Friend, Irimë tells the PCs to think on her when they are in dark places – they won't have to take Corruption tests during one journey through Shadow lands. This is to prepare them for the last scenario, but they're free to use/waste it whenever they want."

I'd prefer them to remain frightening but give the PCs a chance to get past/away.

Just wanted to point this possible correction out from Francisco, in case you're not aware of it. It's late (ok, well, mid-day but I haven't slept yet) so I cannot recall if this was ever officially approved and implemented - or just a thought.

On The Durability Of Trolls, Or: "We're gonna need a bigger spear."

That's a great houserule: my group already had the problem with the troll in the Marsh Bell of whittling him down to 0 End quite quickly and then just having to hope for a PB. I even had to tell them OOC that it would make more sense to use a spear than an axe. Thanks for the link!

Final session of Tales of Wilderland completed... and no one died!

The hobbit had a Bout of Madness and fled, but before he could disengage he was KO'd by an orc.

The Gibbet King is gone for good, but there's a new occupant of the watchtower and he may be a threat in the future.

It cost them quite a few hope points, but they had nice chat with the new occupant before he took up residence, getting the maximum result in that encounter!

They are half crazy and barely alive, but they made it back to Dale (I did not make them Travel, just narrated that part, they needed a break!).

Current mental states as as follows:
Beorning Hope 4, Shadow 9 (yep, he's not had a bout of Madness yet!)
Hobbit Hope 11 Shadow 1/1 (Grasping Treasure Hunter)
Barding Hope 6, Shadow 2
Dwarf Hope 8, Shadow 7

They are looking forwards to a quite winter and Fellowship Phase.

In the spring they plan an expedition to bottom of the river to recover a treasure chest that someone discarded.

After that, the campaign takes a short hiatus, as one of my players is going on holiday for two weeks, giving me a bit of time to plan their next tale!

So they were not all doomed, as I suspected when I started this thread!

Huzzah! I don't need to write a letter of apology to your players

Garbar,
Wait, they're still alive without unreasonable amounts of Fudging? If that is the case that is awesome.


Mythholder,
ROFL. You might want to hold out for a larger statistical set of data before assuming you're off the hook.

They would have been cool with it if they had all died!

They have real dislike of snow trolls though and may want a few words with the person that thought four of them was a good idea!

Not to mention the rather nasty journey they endured. Seriously, never mention that again! Only thing stopping them from going back for the treasure is the thought of crossing the wastes again!

By the way, cave trolls are like mountains. Underlined armour rating makes them hard to erode!

Fudge is something to eat, not something done with dice!

By the time the big dude showed, most of the uruks were dead. Two heroes were spending 1 Hope per round to continue functioning, the hobbit was unconscious and the dwarf was on single figure endurance.

Reinforcements for the enemy arrived from below, but the goblins took one look at the big guy and decided 'Craven' was a really useful character trait. A couple of deep breaths was enough to make it impossible for the Gibbet King to take control, so I narrated his demise rather than roll dice against myself and bore the players. I don't consider that fudging... it was just a matter of time

Had their social encounter with the big guy gone badly, things would have been very different.

Cool. I was just making sure that you didn't add any unnecessary and excessive stuff... like pecans or cherry flavored white chocolate swirls or anything else into the Fudge. But heck, you didn't even feed them any Fudge. That's just awesome.

Thanks for the updates. I am really looking forward to getting back to running my game after GenCon.

You might still need that apology letter.. I'm recycling!

When the characters were doing 'Stewed Hobbit' they got a 'bad feeling' on page 29 and decided to go elsewhere, thus avoiding the encounter.

Skip forwards to page 119 in 'Celduin' and in the paragraph about the 'Chest' it says,
'...it is sure to attract the attention of some of the most evil denizens of the Long Marshes, or even of the Mountains of Mirkwood.'

So I'm thinking that the aforementioned creature may not be unique and could have kin near 'Running River'...

And there might even be a few Marsh Dwellers drawn in too!

You know it might be the teensiest bit anti-climactic for the players to survive the quest only to die on the way home because they collected the treasure.

They will get home and have a Fellowship Phase.

And they have already said they are after that treasure.

I'm just writing an adventure to help them out in that respect!

If I might make a suggestion, you may need to heavily foreshadow the allure / compulsion placed on the treasure. Otherwise the characters might not realize that it is the cause of their problems (well, their characters might not get the inspiration, I'm sure your players will).

Besides the increased number of Hazard checks (from what you've posted it would seem the chest would make the immediate area a Blighted ), I would also set up some static scenes or tableau they could encounter.

Perhaps a couple of dead combatants spread here and there. Like they encounter 3-5 dead orcs. Maybe another group is of a warg, two orcs and a man of evil aspect, etc. Then maybe a smallish skirmish which they can easily avoid as the adversaries are not aware of the party's passing. This one is particularly good if there are too many creatures to fight, or if they are too strong.

Finally, arriving at the river, they see a teeny tiny dragonet (so.. German Shepherd sized?) who is dead, lying along the riverbank. A group of about 5-7 men, assumed to be bandits based on their appearance alone, a couple of whom are wrapping up wounds make it obvious the fight has just ended. The majority head into deeper water. They pull the chest off the bottom, bringing it ashore with some effort. Before they can open it, orc arrows fill the air, slaughtering the men where they stand.

A new band of orcs have arrived to claim the chest and quickly win the chest decisively. As the orcs attempt to open the chest they start falling out, fighting amongst themselves. In moments it devolves into knife-fighting. Leave one or two alive, but seriously injured. At this point, make it clear to the characters as they look around for the next combatant, that the area is clear and quiet. It's only a couple of orcs and the party...

Garn
Some nice ideas there, but this only going to be a short adventure before a brief hiatus, it's some of the content that will lead them to further adventures and the possession of said treasure may draw more threats.

Problem is, the chest was dumped not far from Dale, a few hours by boat, so it lies between Dale and Esgarorth and I'm sure so many foes turning up would be noticed by the residents of those towns.

The area is not blighted... the treasure is!

And I was planning on them finding someone dead nearby, to put them on alert. It was Shadow Lore that alerted them in the 'Stewed Hobbit' adventure and that character is still with them, but they have chosen to come here this time and won't want to go far if they can help it.

Thinking of setting the scene as follows...

Two bodies on the shore. One man has been stabbed in the chest with a knife and the sheath of the other man is empty, suggesting they fought over the treasure.

Marks on the shoreline suggest that the chest was dragged ashore by someone.... but something dragged it back into the water!

That leaves a moral dilemma.

Clearly the chest attracts trouble, so it might be wise to leave it... But knowingly leaving such an evil thing so close to a town is worthy of a Shadow Point, as it could lead to countless deaths!

But if they take the chest, they are tainted by it and will need to find a place to dispose of it safely, or face the consequences of their greed!

Excellent point. I wasn't aware it was located so close to major population centers.