Does every advesary get Weary when their Hate reaches Zero?

I'm reasonably sure that the answer to this is "Yes." Other than Craven adversaries, which I guess are Weary and run away, there doesn't appear to be anything in the rules that modifies this. Though someone may correct me.

Yes.

Thanks!

Thanks for asking this, Khamul. I knew there was a way that adversaries could become Weary (since they drop unconscious once down to 0 Endurance), but I couldn't remember what it was!

Well not all adversaries drop unconscious at 0 Endurance. Don't forget the Great Size trait. Trolls are particularly unkillable thanks to needing to score a wound.

My group had a fight against a snow troll where they were hitting him round after round after round with piercing blows and he just deflected the lot. I ended up adopting the rule that was suggested here of making creatures with Great Size weary when they are down to 0 Endurance. Otherwise they'd have been there forever.

This makes that Intimidate Foe combat task much more enticing...

Well yes and no ... The problem is that the main swordsman was a Barding with the 'Swordsman' trait a Wits of 2 and a long sword (enc 3) and a tower shield.

In defensive stance the TN to hit him is 12 + 2 (Wits) + 3 (Tower Shield) + 3 (Swordsman virtue with long sword) = 20

In offensive stance the TN base is 6 and he loses the Swordsman virtue bonus so the final figure is a mere 11. Against a snow troll with a starting hate around 8 it would be impossible to last more than a couple of rounds without being pulverised.

So, yes I love the Intimidate Foe idea but in practice once the enemies get big, anything out of defensive stance is very risky.

The group I am running takes full advantage of (or some might say abuse) Intimidate Foe. They have a dedicated player that his initial role in each combat is to reduce the Hate of the opposing foes. In this way he has the possibility of affecting more foes than simply fighting them especially if they have the craven trait. If they are fighting something with high hate they might have two using Intimidate Foe. A weary troll is not as dangerous as an unweary one. Plus, without Hate the adversaries cannot fuel their special abilities and the players know that.

I tend to roll with this even though it doesn't feel very Tolkien'ish to me. I just wish there was a way to resist it for unique or ultra dangerous adversaries.

I don't see anything wrong with a side house rule stating that Intimidating a foe only works once (per combat).
Once you're 'scared' you're scared.

It's like getting a cold twice. Or the flu twice. Or two headaches at the same time.

This then would prevent multiple people performing that action (successfully) against the same target.


I'm not one to look for ways to house rule to "nerf" something - but I have no problem doing so once I see something clearly being abused. Most (mature) players will usually readily agree when you come to them nicely and say "hey I've noticed this working too effectively and ruining the spirit of the encounters - what do you say we limit this to once per combatant so that it doesn't wind up being abused".

I agree. And if nerfing is a concern, then allow Intimidate Foe to apply equally to multiple targets: if you roll an Extraordinary Success, every foe loses 3 Hate Points.

I genuinely don't think it's a concern. It only seems like it's overly powerful because it is being used against low attribute (and Craven) opponents.

I mean throw in a single Orc captain or Uruk-Hai and the TN for the roll becomes 15 (10 + highest rank of opponents) which isn't hard but isn't consistently easy to achieve even with 3-4 dice in Awe/Battle. Every failed attempt costs a point of Hope remember.

So fighting a group of Craven goblins with a Troll and the roll is suddenly up around TN 17. Fail and you lose a point of Hope plus you have to go into Forward Stance against a creature easily capable of dishing out 20+ Endurance loss per hit.

Doesn't seem that open to abuse to be honest. If people want to go into forward stance then i say they deserve it.

Oh plus don't forget the Orc Chieftain's ability to spend his hate to fuel the hate of his troops. He can effectively mitigate a few rounds of Intimidate Foe quite easily. Craven troops only run away at the start of a round where they have no hate. So the captain can replace them using his Commanding Voice.

I would not recommend this. The potential fall-out to this is fighting several -- dozens - even an army of Craven individuals.

Remove three Hate for everything and you could potentially send 100 orcs running for the hills on one (lucky) roll.


Then again...meh...maybe that's the kind of game and heroism you want to see - one dwarf standing up and confronting the oncoming rush....certainty of death, small chance of success.....


(I'm just pointing out the potential imbalance of that house rule).

Unfortunately, I think my group does abuse it. They used it to great affect to take down a troll (albeit a weaker troll) with only half the party for instance. They will take there best intimidators and throw them at the toughest enemy. They aren't worried about Forward stance because they have the best parries in the group and would be fighting in that stance anyhow.

I think SirKicley's suggested house rule is a great idea. If the opponent is already intimidated it isn't going to be more intimidated by player. The rules don't really allow for varying levels of intimidate/fear/etc. If an opponent can become more intimidated then they should also be allowed to get less intimidated. I really don’t want to deal with that bookkeeping nightmare.

Good luck to you.

And if we could ask one favor from you - come back and report your findings on player acceptance, and overall effectiveness of the rule-tweak. The good, the bad, and the ugly.

Sharing these things helps us all as a community be better game-moderators as we can compare and consider what has worked or not worked for others.

Hmm .. That still sounds like the team are simply going up against weak opponents.

For instance are they losing Hope if they fail the Intimidate roll?

How many are in your team? What levels are you putting them up against. I put my team of a mere three PCs against a level 8 snow troll. I think if you're using more than three against a weak troll then it's a pretty easy fight to be honest.

Once they have reasonable levels of opponents most characters don't want to get out of Rearward Stance.

I've been using the fights from Tales From Wilderland as a metric for what I consider reasonable threats.

Celebril, just want to double check, the PCs are using Intimidate Foe instead of attacking, right?

Yeah they are using Intimidate Foe instead of attacking at least until the burn up the hate of the tough opponents and maybe scare away those that are craven. The group I run is between 6-8 players each session. They have every culture (including Men of the Lake) but not the Beornings. Cannot seem to get anyone interested in that culture.

Well that is a very large team to be fair.

Again some of this comes down to tactics and numbers.

I don't think it would be unreasonable to have them fighting 6-8 Orc Soldiers plus 6-8 Wild Wolves plus an Orc Chieftain. None of these are Craven and the Orc Chieftain can replenish hate in the soldiers.

Alternatively, try out 6-8 Uruk Hai against the team.

My thoughts at least. I think in a fight where they feel more evenly matched and start taking some serious damage (Horrible Strength is a big hit) then fewer characters are going to risk using Intimidate Foe quite as much. It's never looked that enticing to my group definitely.

IIRC, any given hero can only be engaged with up to three human-sized enemies at a time (or two large ones).

that is true but nothing i said precludes the possibility that the player hero isnt standing at the front of a force of 50 dwarves rolls an intimidate check and sends all 100 of the charging orcs for the hills using the proposed rule and having a lucky enough roll to get 2 sixes on the success dice.

Except it doesn't make much sense to allow a player to intimidate any other foes when he's engaged with some of them, and the turn sequence occurs after foes have been assigned.

so youre saying that you can only intimidate a foe that has engaged your character specifically? so tbose attackjng your companions is unaffected? hmmmm hadnt thought of that restriction before. not sure if that is a fair assessment.


how does everyone else handle this?