2850 or 2941 - Sauron revealed?

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Rôg
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Re: 2850 or 2941 - Sauron revealed?

Post by Rôg » Fri Nov 14, 2014 10:37 pm

Thanks for that, Tolwen.

I think the incident I'm remembering (and Elfcrusher vaguely recalled) happens at the front end of the Watchful Peace? I distinctly recall that at one point Gandalf believed that the darkness growning in Dol Guldur was "only" one of the Nine.
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Tolwen
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Re: 2850 or 2941 - Sauron revealed?

Post by Tolwen » Fri Nov 14, 2014 10:49 pm

Rôg wrote:Thanks for that, Tolwen.

I think the incident I'm remembering (and Elfcrusher vaguely recalled) happens at the front end of the Watchful Peace? I distinctly recall that at one point Gandalf believed that the darkness growning in Dol Guldur was "only" one of the Nine.
I guess you are referring to the following passage within Appendix B, which is even much earlier than Gandalf's first attempt in DG:
J.R.R. Tolkien wrote: c. 1100 [TA] The Wise (the Istari and the chief Eldar) discover that an evil power has made a stronghold at Dol Guldur. It is thought to be one of the Nazgûl.
...
2060 The power of Dol Guldur grows. The Wise fear that it may be Sauron taking shape again.
2063 Gandalf goes to Dol Guldur. Sauron retreats and hides in the East. The Watchful Peace begins. The Nazgûl remain quiet in Minas Morgul.

LotR.Appendix B
In the 21st century, suspicions that the 'Necromancer' really was Sauron and not one of his servants or other another Lesser Evil were already strong enough that Gandalf made his attempt in TA 2063, which Sauron avoided by fleeing into the East.
The fact that the Wise seem to have bought the "the Necromancer is a Nazgûl" story for almost a milennium can be seen as an indicator that Sauron had a really good cover for his presence developed that kept him successfully veiled for such an extended period.

Cheers
Tolwen
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Otaku-sempai
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Re: 2850 or 2941 - Sauron revealed?

Post by Otaku-sempai » Sat Jan 03, 2015 8:47 pm

Rôg wrote:Thanks for that, Tolwen.

I think the incident I'm remembering (and Elfcrusher vaguely recalled) happens at the front end of the Watchful Peace? I distinctly recall that at one point Gandalf believed that the darkness growning in Dol Guldur was "only" one of the Nine.
That is exactly right. That was the beginning of the Watchful Peace that lasted about 400 years. Peter Jackson muddies the waters in the Hobbit movies by tying the Watchful Peace to the Fall of Angmar and moving that event to the period just prior to the Quest of Erebor.

So, my question is, has this been corrected in the published text? If not, will a correction be added to a list of errata and/or incorporated into future printings?
Last edited by Otaku-sempai on Sun Jan 04, 2015 4:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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bluejay
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Re: 2850 or 2941 - Sauron revealed?

Post by bluejay » Sat Jan 03, 2015 9:23 pm

Majestic wrote:Interesting stuff!

So what year did Sauron actually flee Dol Guldur? I ask because in my campaign, we started off with "Words of the Wise" in 2946, right after the Gathering of Five Armies (as recommended in that adventure), and it starts off with the PCs having encountered the Necromancer there.
The text from the adventure says the PCs were "tasked with investigating rumours of a shadowy figure seen visiting the vicinity of Dol Guldur." I'm sure the implication is that the characters are concerned about the return of the Necromancer or a Nazgul but of course it's just rumour.
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Tolwen
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Re: 2850 or 2941 - Sauron revealed?

Post by Tolwen » Sun Jan 04, 2015 5:39 pm

Otaku-sempai wrote:
Rôg wrote:I think the incident I'm remembering (and Elfcrusher vaguely recalled) happens at the front end of the Watchful Peace? I distinctly recall that at one point Gandalf believed that the darkness growning in Dol Guldur was "only" one of the Nine.
That is exactly right. That was the beginning of the Watchful Peace that lasted about 400 years. Peter Jackson muddies the waters in the Hobbit movies by tying the Watchful Peace to the Fall of Angmar and moving that event to the period just prior to the Quest of Erebor.
Could you point me to that passage for the bold part? I am only aware of the passage posted above, where the - erroneous - classification of the Necromancer as a Nazgûl stemmed from ca. TA 1100 (i.e. about 900 years before the Watchful Peace began). The incident at the beginning of the Watchful Peace was Gandalf's visit there when he doubted this "The Necromancer is a Nazgûl" and had serious enough suspicions that it might actually be the returned Sauron.

Cheers
Tolwen

EDIT: I just cleaned up my post, as the quote I was referring to was a bit muddled. Now it should be clear what I mean :)
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Otaku-sempai
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Re: 2850 or 2941 - Sauron revealed?

Post by Otaku-sempai » Sun Jan 04, 2015 8:04 pm

Tolwen wrote:Could you point me to that passage for the bold part? I am only aware of the passage posted above, where the - erroneous - classification of the Necromancer as a Nazgûl stemmed from ca. TA 1100 (i.e. about 900 years before the Watchful Peace began). The incident at the beginning of the Watchful Peace was Gandalf's visit there when he doubted this "The Necromancer is a Nazgûl" and had serious enough suspicions that it might actually be the returned Sauron.

Cheers
Tolwen

EDIT: I just cleaned up my post, as the quote I was referring to was a bit muddled. Now it should be clear what I mean :)
Rôg finally recalled that it was Gandalf's first investigation of Dol Guldur in TA 2063 that kicked off the Watchful Peace. Sauron fled to the East and Gandalf did not learn the Necromancer's true identity until 2850 (when he also found the dying Thrain in the dungeons of the stronghold). I don't remember that Gandalf actually concluded that the Necromancer was probably one of the Nine, just that he failed to discover the truth.
"Far, far below the deepest delvings of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he."

Tolwen
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Re: 2850 or 2941 - Sauron revealed?

Post by Tolwen » Sun Jan 04, 2015 9:02 pm

Otaku-sempai wrote: Rôg finally recalled that it was Gandalf's first investigation of Dol Guldur in TA 2063 that kicked off the Watchful Peace. Sauron fled to the East and Gandalf did not learn the Necromancer's true identity until 2850 (when he also found the dying Thrain in the dungeons of the stronghold). I don't remember that Gandalf actually concluded that the Necromancer was probably one of the Nine, just that he failed to discover the truth.
OK. My bad - I thought it alluded to some reference I wasn't aware of that told about the "Nazgûl suspicion" being connected to the beginning of the Watchful Peace.

I should have made that clearer in the first question. All's well then :)

Cheers
Tolwen
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Láthspell
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Re: 2850 or 2941 - Sauron revealed?

Post by Láthspell » Wed Jan 07, 2015 5:45 am

In regards to the shadowy figure seen near Dol Guldur. It's vague enough that a Lore-Master could easily insert any number of antagonists. If you're playing through Tales from Wilderland, the Gibbet King (or agents thereof) would seem to be a natural choice. The Darkening of Mirkwood also introduces a number of interesting possibilities as well, especially if you like foreshadowing.

Majestic
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Re: 2850 or 2941 - Sauron revealed?

Post by Majestic » Wed Jan 07, 2015 6:53 pm

I've been thinking that very thing, Láthspell. Either the GK or perhaps the Lieutenant of Dol Guldur.
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