revised skill test, raising TN, but add attribute....
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Re: revised skill test, raising TN, but add attribute....
The other impact this change would likely have is to cause greater specialization within a fellowship. "Oh, the Hobbit has really high wits, so let him be our Riddle and Lore specialist. The Beorning can do all the Song and Craft rolls."
The Munchkin Formerly Known as Elfcrusher
Journey Computer | Combat Simulator | Bestiary | Weapon Calculator
Journey Computer | Combat Simulator | Bestiary | Weapon Calculator
Re: revised skill test, raising TN, but add attribute....
You are right, teaches me to do seat-of-the-pants math... humans are bad at probability.Hélend wrote:Actually, being weary is only about a 10-20% cut in success rate at TN 14, not 40%:
TN 14: Skill 2: 41.9%; Skill 3: 69.48%; Skill 4: 88.57%
TN 14 Weary: Skill 2: 31.25%; Skill 3: 47.72%; Skill 4: 62.64%
Here's a complete breakdown:
Code: Select all
DICE TN 10 TN 12 TN 14 TN 16 TN 18 TN 20
0 - NORMAL 16.67% 08.32% 08.32% 08.34% 08.33% 08.32%
0 - WEARY 16.67% 08.32% 08.32% 08.34% 08.33% 08.32%
1 - NORMAL 45.83% 29.17% 16.67% 09.71% 08.33% 08.33%
1 - WEARY 37.48% 25.00% 16.66% 09.71% 08.33% 08.33%
2 - NORMAL 74.07% 58.31% 41.89% 27.32% 16.43% 10.66%
2 - WEARY 57.40% 43.73% 31.24% 20.14% 14.59% 10.65%
3 - NORMAL 91.99% 82.64% 69.48% 54.16% 38.85% 25.71%
3 - WEARY 72.57% 60.42% 47.74% 35.21% 26.02% 18.05%
4 - NORMAL 98.38% 95.06% 88.55% 78.39% 65.19% 50.44%
4 - WEARY 83.00% 73.44% 62.63% 50.79% 40.06% 29.67%
5 - NORMAL 99.77% 99.02% 96.93% 92.54% 85.05% 74.34%
5 - WEARY 89.72% 82.80% 74.51% 64.52% 54.07% 43.19%
6 - NORMAL 99.97% 99.85% 99.39% 98.08% 95.16% 89.80%
6 - WEARY 93.92% 89.18% 83.24% 75.42% 66.37% 56.37%
Code: Select all
DIFFERENCE
DICE TN 10 TN 12 TN 14 TN 16 TN 18 TN 20
0 00.00% 00.00% 00.00% 00.00% 00.00% 00.00%
1 -08.32% -04.18% -00.01% 00.00% 00.00% 00.00%
2 -16.61% -14.48% -10.63% -07.09% -01.86% -00.01%
3 -19.40% -22.28% -21.77% -18.91% -12.81% -07.67%
4 -15.42% -21.63% -25.94% -27.55% -25.11% -20.81%
5 -10.01% -16.20% -22.40% -27.99% -30.93% -31.20%
6 -06.03% -10.68% -16.16% -22.55% -28.76% -33.36%
So being Weary impacts you more the more dice you are rolling (since there are more ways to make the TN if you're not Weary). As mentioned above, we're essentially talking about a one or two-column shift... TN 14 chances go to to TN 12 chances, more or less. As Glorelendil points out, it also encourages further specialisation, where in RAW it's a minor consideration.
Jacob Rodgers, occasional nitwit.
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Re: revised skill test, raising TN, but add attribute....
well..... a lot of debate, very interesting......
thanks for all the answers, and for the table.
so, no "body", "heart" or "wits" specialist, or at least, not more than in the actual system.
to clarify my proposal: yes, hope can be used, to add "once again" attribute, or favored attribute.
the possibility of using wisdom or valor instead of attribute for hope expenditure is interesting, i keep it....... thanks Rocmistro. (for experienced character, valor or wisdom can be better in some case than attribute..... a valorous hobbit could use valor instead of a body of 2... i find it quite fluffy....)
to calculate win chances, we can use the table provided in the topic:
for an average test (TN 14 changed to TN 18 in my system), if you have
attribute of 4: you use the TN 14 column, the most frequently used win chance.....
attribute of 6: you use the TN 12 win chance column (easier test)
attribute of 8 (or lower but favored for example): you use TN 10 winchance (even more easier)
attribute of 2: you use the TN 16 column.
to detail:
- a PC with an attribute of 4, with a skill level of 3, for a TN of 18 ( average test in my system) will have exactly the same chance of success than a level skill of 3 in normal system ....
dice + attribute of 4 against TN 18= dice vs TN 14. 70% of success
- a PC with attribute of 6( over the average) , with a level of 3, for a TN of 18 ( average test in my system), will have the same chance than a PC level 3 vs TN 12: 82% for an average test.
so a PC, same skill level, will have roughly 10% better chances if he has an attribute of 6 , vs a PC with an attribute of 4.
that seems quite realistic. (no differences in normal system)
- a PC with attribute of 4, skill level 1 for an TN of 18 (my system) will have 17% success, in both systems.
- a PC with attribute of 6, skill level 1 for average TN will have 29% in my sytem, 17% in normal system.
- an exceptional PC with attribute of 8, skill level 1, will have 45% for average test, 17% in normal system.
- an exceptional PC with attribute of 8, skill level 0, will have 16% for average test, 8% in normal system.
so, the increase of % for my system is only for good attribute, and between 10 and 25% most of the time, particularly for low chance tests.
at 0 skill level, you notice the % will raise from 8 to 16%. when you know nothing, good attribute doesn't increase a lot % chance.
the difference between skill 0 and skill 1 is significant, but for me it's normal.... with a few knowledge in a skill, you do much better than a total newbie.
i fully agree with Herend: i don't like throwing tons of rolls, ad so each throw should be important.
So in theory, with a low frequence of rolls, the more hope will be useful, as you can use it for most important tests.
The limit is the way we get AP's.
the more you roleplay, the less you throw dice, the less you check marks, the less you get AP's.... (i admit i exaggerate a little...there are rules for auto success, traits, etc).
I think AP should be in some cases disconnected of skill rolls.
as you noticed, even a PC with a skill of 3 (definitely a quite experienced man in the domain, RAW says a good skill) will have only 70% for an average test.
i still find the chance quite low.
a PC with a skill of 2, (most of the time, at the beginning for the best skills ), has only 40% success.
traits cannot do everything.
i noticed that bad common skilled players tended to test as few as possible, because they thought that chance of success was too bad.
so equilibrium is difficult to obtain.
in my group, the few 10 to 20% increase of success seemed to have improved the frustration of always failed test of the beginning. As the campaign will go on, I have no doubt that i will be able to find more difficult test, and so worst TN, if i think success has become a regular basis, but for now it is not the case.
to finish my explanation, to apply easily the system, in fact I keep the same TN than in RAW, but i use a derived attribute, which is attribute minus 4. so bonus go from -2 to +4 (attribute of 8 in Rivendell cultures) , and i add it to the test.
thanks again.
Aulendil
thanks for all the answers, and for the table.
to answer to Glorelendil: i don't think so, as of course basic attribute counts, but depending on favored skill, it will not be always the same PC who will be the "best" for a particular skill...... the main parameters will always be skill level, and favored skill for favored attribute bonus. So in my opinion, if on the one hand a PC alpha has 1 or 2 more in attribute than PC Bravo, if bravo has one more skill level, Bravo will usually be better.....further more, bravo uses perhaps a favored skill.The other impact this change would likely have is to cause greater specialization within a fellowship. "Oh, the Hobbit has really high wits, so let him be our Riddle and Lore specialist. The Beorning can do all the Song and Craft rolls."
so, no "body", "heart" or "wits" specialist, or at least, not more than in the actual system.
to clarify my proposal: yes, hope can be used, to add "once again" attribute, or favored attribute.
the possibility of using wisdom or valor instead of attribute for hope expenditure is interesting, i keep it....... thanks Rocmistro. (for experienced character, valor or wisdom can be better in some case than attribute..... a valorous hobbit could use valor instead of a body of 2... i find it quite fluffy....)
to calculate win chances, we can use the table provided in the topic:
for an average test (TN 14 changed to TN 18 in my system), if you have
attribute of 4: you use the TN 14 column, the most frequently used win chance.....
attribute of 6: you use the TN 12 win chance column (easier test)
attribute of 8 (or lower but favored for example): you use TN 10 winchance (even more easier)
attribute of 2: you use the TN 16 column.
to detail:
- a PC with an attribute of 4, with a skill level of 3, for a TN of 18 ( average test in my system) will have exactly the same chance of success than a level skill of 3 in normal system ....
dice + attribute of 4 against TN 18= dice vs TN 14. 70% of success
- a PC with attribute of 6( over the average) , with a level of 3, for a TN of 18 ( average test in my system), will have the same chance than a PC level 3 vs TN 12: 82% for an average test.
so a PC, same skill level, will have roughly 10% better chances if he has an attribute of 6 , vs a PC with an attribute of 4.
that seems quite realistic. (no differences in normal system)
- a PC with attribute of 4, skill level 1 for an TN of 18 (my system) will have 17% success, in both systems.
- a PC with attribute of 6, skill level 1 for average TN will have 29% in my sytem, 17% in normal system.
- an exceptional PC with attribute of 8, skill level 1, will have 45% for average test, 17% in normal system.
- an exceptional PC with attribute of 8, skill level 0, will have 16% for average test, 8% in normal system.
so, the increase of % for my system is only for good attribute, and between 10 and 25% most of the time, particularly for low chance tests.
at 0 skill level, you notice the % will raise from 8 to 16%. when you know nothing, good attribute doesn't increase a lot % chance.
the difference between skill 0 and skill 1 is significant, but for me it's normal.... with a few knowledge in a skill, you do much better than a total newbie.
i fully agree with Herend: i don't like throwing tons of rolls, ad so each throw should be important.
So in theory, with a low frequence of rolls, the more hope will be useful, as you can use it for most important tests.
The limit is the way we get AP's.
the more you roleplay, the less you throw dice, the less you check marks, the less you get AP's.... (i admit i exaggerate a little...there are rules for auto success, traits, etc).
I think AP should be in some cases disconnected of skill rolls.
as you noticed, even a PC with a skill of 3 (definitely a quite experienced man in the domain, RAW says a good skill) will have only 70% for an average test.
i still find the chance quite low.
a PC with a skill of 2, (most of the time, at the beginning for the best skills ), has only 40% success.
traits cannot do everything.
i noticed that bad common skilled players tended to test as few as possible, because they thought that chance of success was too bad.
so equilibrium is difficult to obtain.
in my group, the few 10 to 20% increase of success seemed to have improved the frustration of always failed test of the beginning. As the campaign will go on, I have no doubt that i will be able to find more difficult test, and so worst TN, if i think success has become a regular basis, but for now it is not the case.
to finish my explanation, to apply easily the system, in fact I keep the same TN than in RAW, but i use a derived attribute, which is attribute minus 4. so bonus go from -2 to +4 (attribute of 8 in Rivendell cultures) , and i add it to the test.
thanks again.
Aulendil
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- Posts: 5160
- Joined: Mon Jan 13, 2014 5:20 pm
Re: revised skill test, raising TN, but add attribute....
In the example you give regarding specialization it will be a wash, but my concern is that during character creation (or Fellowship phase) alpha will tell bravo, "I will raise that skill because it's my highest attribute; why don't you specialize in this other one." Thus preventing the scenario you describe from occurring in the first place.
Maybe not in all cases, or even most of them. After all, there are starting skills up to 3 and some skills, like Travel, that everybody needs. But often enough to make an impact.
Maybe not in all cases, or even most of them. After all, there are starting skills up to 3 and some skills, like Travel, that everybody needs. But often enough to make an impact.
The Munchkin Formerly Known as Elfcrusher
Journey Computer | Combat Simulator | Bestiary | Weapon Calculator
Journey Computer | Combat Simulator | Bestiary | Weapon Calculator
Re: revised skill test, raising TN, but add attribute....
Agreed. I think, Aulendil, it's not going to work as well as you think it will.
I would recommend lowering the standard TN from 14 to 13. Seems a more elegant solution.
I would recommend lowering the standard TN from 14 to 13. Seems a more elegant solution.
Rignuth: Barding Wordweaver Wanderer in Southron Loremaster's game.
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Amroth Ol'Hir: High Elf Vengeful Kin Slayer in Zedturtle's game.
Jakk O'Malli: Dwarven Orator Treasure-Hunter in Hermes Serpent's game.
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