Help with found hobbitling character

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Láthspell
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Re: Help with found hobbitling character

Post by Láthspell » Tue Jan 06, 2015 12:23 am

robbmiller wrote:Good advice, thanks!

Anything wrong with the common skills or other numbers?
I have a number of comments on the matter.

Skills actually follow more of an exponential curve progression, rather than a linear one. As such: Short Sword: 1; Bow: 0; Dagger: 3; is not the equivalent of: Short Sword: 2; Bow: 1; Dagger: 1. The former is actually 14 Experience points worth of skills, while the latter is only 10 Experience.

There is a similar issue with the common skills where you ended up with 12 Advancement Points worth of Experience more than a standard starting character (or in character creation 3 extra starting Experience). Of course, you could be using the generational character rules and this is a second or third generation character. Even so, some might consider that total 7 point experience gap a bit odd considering she's quite a bit younger than most of the company. ;)


Numbers aside I have couple of other suggestions. If you are that concerned about young Primrose starting with Folk-Lore, consider switching her calling to Treasure-hunter has no Lore specialty associated with it,. Treasure-hunter also has the Perception skill group to which Awareness and Insight both belong, which would mean having them favored would not be a deviation from the RAW. Keep in mind, not all Treasures are gold and gems, and a young Hobbit orphan could be seeking other treasures as it were. Of course, gold and gems could provide a means of security for a poor lass than is just barely making it by in the world. Furthermore, Burglary might as well be a survival trait for a Wild Hobbit, as it could have been vital for her to find food and shelter.

If you have your heart set on Wanderer, however, consider this. Perhaps young Primrose does not known much of the cultures of other folk, but her inquisitive nature might allow her to find things out quickly. After all a curious child sitting and listening intently as the elders recount the legends of their people would certainly drawn less attention than a company of armed strangers. Children also tend to pick up languages rather quickly as well, which is another defining characteristic of Folk-Lore.


Stormcrow wrote:Yes, the average age of all hobbits listed with ages in the family trees in Appendix C, excluding Drogo Baggins, Primula Brandybuck, and Lotho Baggins, who all met untimely deaths, is 96 years.

However, longer life does not necessarily equal longer maturation. Aragorn surely wasn't a boy until he was 50! (His sword and birthright were revealed to him at age 20.)
In regards to Hobbits coming of age, I am generally inclined to agree with Stormcrow on many matters, and my first inclination would be to saw that longevity does not necessitate slower maturity.

However, that being said, I believe that there is a strong case to made that Hobbits not only have a slower rate of emotional maturity, but also of physical maturity as well.

There are a couple reasons for this. To start with, I'm going with the assumption that the various peoples of Middle Earth (with the exception of the Elves) tend to go adventuring when they are in the physical prime of their lives. For most Mannish cultures this is between 16 and 30. This would also be the age when they would also be likely to sire children. (Yes, in the modern day and age many people may not have children until their 30s or later, but in medieval times without the virtue of modern medicine having, children after 30 was an extremely risky proposition.) If Hobbits and Dwarves physically matured at the same rate as the race of Men we might expect them to go adventuring at the same age rather than at 25-60 and 50-100 respectively.

Now, this has been mostly supposition so far, but we actually have five family trees to look at for additional evidence. The Bagginses, Tooks, and Brandybucks are all upperclass gentry and might be expected to have children later in life, but the Gamgees and Cottons are common folk and show little significant difference from the more prominent families. All tend to start having children in their thirties or early forties. Samwise has his first child at 41 years of age and the last of his thirteen kids at the ripe old age of 62.

Dwarves do not tend to have large families. Most of Durin's line have hand children around the age of 100, Thráin II begot Thorin Oakenshield at 90 and his third child Dís at 114. The Dúnedain, for their part would reach maturity at 18 and and remain in their prime until 60, maturing slightly slower than most Mannish cultures but more quickly than the Hobbits.

In any case, that is my short exposé on the matter.

robbmiller
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Re: Help with found hobbitling character

Post by robbmiller » Tue Jan 06, 2015 3:50 am

Láthspell wrote:
Skills actually follow more of an exponential curve progression, rather than a linear one. As such: Short Sword: 1; Bow: 0; Dagger: 3; is not the equivalent of: Short Sword: 2; Bow: 1; Dagger: 1. The former is actually 14 Experience points worth of skills, while the latter is only 10 Experience.

There is a similar issue with the common skills where you ended up with 12 Advancement Points worth of Experience more than a standard starting character (or in character creation 3 extra starting Experience). Of course, you could be using the generational character rules and this is a second or third generation character. Even so, some might consider that total 7 point experience gap a bit odd considering she's quite a bit younger than most of the company. ;)
Thank you! I will revisit the numbers to make them correct for a new character. Primrose is innately good with the dagger but has very little other skill with weaponry. So perhaps bow and short sword should both be 0 until she acquires these skills from the fellowship.
Láthspell wrote:
Numbers aside I have couple of other suggestions. If you are that concerned about young Primrose starting with Folk-Lore, consider switching her calling to Treasure-hunter has no Lore specialty associated with it,. Treasure-hunter also has the Perception skill group to which Awareness and Insight both belong, which would mean having them favored would not be a deviation from the RAW. Keep in mind, not all Treasures are gold and gems, and a young Hobbit orphan could be seeking other treasures as it were. Of course, gold and gems could provide a means of security for a poor lass than is just barely making it by in the world. Furthermore, Burglary might as well be a survival trait for a Wild Hobbit, as it could have been vital for her to find food and shelter.

If you have your heart set on Wanderer, however, consider this. Perhaps young Primrose does not known much of the cultures of other folk, but her inquisitive nature might allow her to find things out quickly. After all a curious child sitting and listening intently as the elders recount the legends of their people would certainly drawn less attention than a company of armed strangers. Children also tend to pick up languages rather quickly as well, which is another defining characteristic of Folk-Lore.
I will also bring these suggestions to the table.

Otaku-sempai
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Re: Help with found hobbitling character

Post by Otaku-sempai » Tue Jan 06, 2015 3:08 pm

Stormcrow wrote:You've missed my point. Hobbits may age at exactly the same rate as we do, but culturally they may consider anything younger than 33 to be juvenile and irresponsible.
No, Stormcrow, I did not miss your point. I reject it. Tolkien makes it clear in FotR that the tween years represented a young hobbit's adolescence:
At that time Frodo was still in his tweens, as the hobbits called the irresponsible twenties between childhood and coming of age at thirty-three.
The longer natural lifespan of hobbits compared to ordinary Men (as opposed to the descendants of Numenor) adds more evidence for their slower rate of growth. I would estimate that a hobbit ages two years for every three of Men. Of course, that is still just my opinion (although it is shared by a number of Tolkien scholars) and you are free to disagree.
"Far, far below the deepest delvings of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he."

Stormcrow
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Re: Help with found hobbitling character

Post by Stormcrow » Tue Jan 06, 2015 4:47 pm

Otaku-sempai wrote:
Stormcrow wrote:You've missed my point. Hobbits may age at exactly the same rate as we do, but culturally they may consider anything younger than 33 to be juvenile and irresponsible.
No, Stormcrow, I did not miss your point. I reject it. Tolkien makes it clear in FotR that the tween years represented a young hobbit's adolescence:
At that time Frodo was still in his tweens, as the hobbits called the irresponsible twenties between childhood and coming of age at thirty-three.
This does not show physical maturity; it shows that hobbits consider tweens to be irresponsible and not-children. This is true of our society, too, but we call these irresponsible not-children adults.

Show me any passage at all that shows that hobbits in their tweens are in any way less physically mature than men in their tweens.
The longer natural lifespan of hobbits compared to ordinary Men (as opposed to the descendants of Numenor) adds more evidence for their slower rate of growth.
No, it is only evidence that they live longer. If different populations of real people live to different ages, it's not because they age physically at different rates.

Actually, we haven't surveyed the lifespans of middle-men. There are no convenient family trees, but we should be able to glean some numbers.
I would estimate that a hobbit ages two years for every three of Men. Of course, that is still just my opinion (although it is shared by a number of Tolkien scholars)
If you're going to claim the backing of Tolkien scholars, you're going to have to provide citations to prove it.

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Re: Help with found hobbitling character

Post by Stormcrow » Tue Jan 06, 2015 5:02 pm

Here's an interesting site showing Middle-earth population and lifespan.

Otaku-sempai
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Re: Help with found hobbitling character

Post by Otaku-sempai » Tue Jan 06, 2015 7:48 pm

Stormcrow wrote:If you're going to claim the backing of Tolkien scholars, you're going to have to provide citations to prove it.
How 'bout Tolkien himself in The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien? In Letter 214 he discusses the birthday traditions of hobbits. He writes: "It may be noted that Hobbits, as soon as they become 'faunts' (that is talkers and walkers: formally taken to be on their third birthday-anniversary) gave presents to their parents." This certainly seems to be evidence of slower development.

Gandalf thinks nothing of sending 50 year-old Bilbo Baggins off on an adventure--one that promises to be quite strenuous. Surely the Wizard would have reservations about doing the same thing to a 50 year-old man.

Then there is Frodo, who appears, at 50 years old, to still be a young hobbit of about 33--roughly contemporary with Samwise (38) and younger cousins Merry (36) and Pippin (28).

I'm afraid that the issue isn't directly addressed in my Tolkien reference books by Foster and Tyler. The other sources that I have direct access to are role-playing game resources, which cannot be counted as authoritative.
"Far, far below the deepest delvings of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he."

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Re: Help with found hobbitling character

Post by Stormcrow » Tue Jan 06, 2015 9:35 pm

Otaku-sempai wrote:How 'bout Tolkien himself in The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien? In Letter 214 he discusses the birthday traditions of hobbits. He writes: "It may be noted that Hobbits, as soon as they become 'faunts' (that is talkers and walkers: formally taken to be on their third birthday-anniversary) gave presents to their parents." This certainly seems to be evidence of slower development.
Again, we're talking about a "formal" age, that is, an age at which society deems an individual to have certain characteristics. In this case it is at the age of three that a hobbit is deemed capable of talking, walking, and giving presents to their parents. This hardly seems different from modern humans, who, while they start walking unassisted at around 12 months, are still hard to understand by age 3. So by their third birthdays, hobbits are now declared to be faunts, just as on their thirty-third birthdays they're declared to be full adults.
Gandalf thinks nothing of sending 50 year-old Bilbo Baggins off on an adventure--one that promises to be quite strenuous. Surely the Wizard would have reservations about doing the same thing to a 50 year-old man.

Then there is Frodo, who appears, at 50 years old, to still be a young hobbit of about 33--roughly contemporary with Samwise (38) and younger cousins Merry (36) and Pippin (28).
Again, this says nothing about maturation, and everything about lifespan. Hobbits have longer periods of haleness than middle-men.
I'm afraid that the issue isn't directly addressed in my Tolkien reference books by Foster and Tyler. The other sources that I have direct access to are role-playing game resources, which cannot be counted as authoritative.
No, they can't.

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Re: Help with found hobbitling character

Post by Otaku-sempai » Wed Jan 07, 2015 4:27 pm

Honestly, Stormcrow, I think that you are over-complicating this. Using Occam's Razor, it just seems more likely that hobbits age more slowly than common humans. Tolkien provides evidence for this conclusion (definitive or not) and none that contradicts it.
"Far, far below the deepest delvings of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he."

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Re: Help with found hobbitling character

Post by Stormcrow » Wed Jan 07, 2015 4:52 pm

Occam's Razor doesn't apply; neither position is more complicated than the other. Tolkien doesn't provide evidence for your conclusion, as I've shown above. However, I agree that there's no evidence against it... except that's how varying lifespans work in the real world.

Hobbits don't age more slowly than men; they just live longer.

Pippin, at age 29, was not as physically mature as a human of merely 15. He was as physically mature as a human of 29, but hobbits consider this an irresponsible period of life. Pippin was adept at demonstrating their views correct.

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Re: Help with found hobbitling character

Post by Otaku-sempai » Wed Jan 07, 2015 11:08 pm

Don't confuse evidence with proof, Stormcrow. There most certainly is evidence that has been presented in this thread; it is just that it is circumstantial and not conclusive enough for you. If you don't find it compelling then we will just have to agree to disagree. In any case, further discussion of this side-topic should probably be in another thread.

No hard feelings?
"Far, far below the deepest delvings of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he."

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