Cuiviénen Flashback

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Aeglosdir
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Re: Cuiviénen Flashback

Post by Aeglosdir » Sun Sep 21, 2014 2:34 pm

Arthadan wrote:Men spirits, unlike Eleves spirits which may linger if they are corrupted, must answer the Summon of Mandos and go to the Halls of Mandos. From there, they leave Arda for good, nobody knows their final destination save Eru. Only known exceptions are the Nazgûl due to the use of Rings of Power which weren't meant to be worn by mortals and the Oathbreakers who were cursed by a Maiar-related bloodline (Elendil, scion of Melian) using the sacred name of Eru himself as witness. For the record, Barrow-wights are "evil spirits" inhabitating the deceased bodies of kings of old.
Interesting. On the one hand, Tolkien wrote in the Athrabeth: 'The Elves believed, though they had no certain information, that the fëar of Men, if disembodied, left Time (sooner or later), and never returned", with the following note added: "Sooner or later: because the Elves believed that the fëar of dead Men also went to Mandos (without choice in the matter; their free will with regard to death was taken away). There they waited until they were surrendered to Eru. The truth of this is not asserted."

So, no disembodied human souls in Middle-earth since willy-nilly they all went to Mandos (or so the Elves believed).

On the other hand, the Oathbreakers are a pretty big exception. If disembodied spirits can be stopped from going to Mandos at such a scale, through the agency of a mere mortal (regardless of progeniture), then any argument that there can be no ghosts in Middle-earth seems pretty shaky. Surely there must be other oathbreakers, and possibly other means than broken oaths.

Fairë in Quenya meant "phantom; disembodied spirit, when seen as a pale shape". If the Barrow-wights and the Gibbet King are 'evil spirits', how do we know that they were not disembodied once?
Last edited by Aeglosdir on Sun Sep 21, 2014 9:23 pm, edited 4 times in total.

Glorelendil
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Re: Cuiviénen Flashback

Post by Glorelendil » Sun Sep 21, 2014 2:38 pm

Oh interesting. I hadn't seen that quote about "guarded the gates of his fortress".

Either he's fallen a long way, or the tales of the first age have grown somewhat with the retelling...
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Aeglosdir
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Re: Cuiviénen Flashback

Post by Aeglosdir » Sun Sep 21, 2014 2:41 pm

I do think that it would rather take the point out of the story of Carcharoth's death.

The similarities are there and obviously intentional but wasn't the Werewolf of Mirkwood scarred by another light as explained in DoM.

Morgoth chose Carcharoth "from among the whelps of the race of Draugluin". Perhaps the Werewolf of Mirkwood was Carcharoth's little brother? (Or bitch of a sister)
Last edited by Aeglosdir on Mon Sep 22, 2014 7:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

Glorelendil
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Re: Cuiviénen Flashback

Post by Glorelendil » Sun Sep 21, 2014 6:51 pm

Aeglosdir wrote:I do think that it would rather take the point out of the story of Carcharoth's death.

The similarities are there and obviously intentional but wasn't the Werewolf of Mirkwood scarred by another light as explained in DoM.

Morgoth chose Carcharoth "from among the whelps of the race of Draugluin". Perhaps the Werewolf of Mirkwood was Carcharoth's little brother? (Or bitchy sister)
The runt of the litter. And he's still bitter about being called that...
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Arthadan
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Re: Cuiviénen Flashback

Post by Arthadan » Tue Sep 23, 2014 12:21 am

The fate of any Úmaiar of Fallen Maiar who is killed in Arda and whose power has been disminished enough to make him unable to recreate a new body to use is stated in vol. X of History of Middle-eartg (tittled Morgoth's Ring):
[The Elves certainly held and taught that fëar or 'spirits' may grow of their own life (independently of the body)], even as they may be hurt and healed, be diminished and renewed] if they do not sink below a certain level. Since no fëa can be annihilated, reduced to zero or not-existing, it is not clear what is meant. Thus Sauron was said to have fallen [after the destruction of the One Ring] below the point of ever recovering, though he had previously recovered.
According to TOR, the Necromancer teaches the disemboided spirit of the Werewolf (which is "below the point of ever recovering") how to inhabit wolves corpses to roam the land of the living again.

Arthadan
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Re: Cuiviénen Flashback

Post by Arthadan » Tue Sep 23, 2014 12:48 am

Aeglosdir wrote: Fairë in Quenya meant "phantom; disembodied spirit, when seen as a pale shape". If the Barrow-wights and the Gibbet King are 'evil spirits', how do we know that they were not disembodied once?
To begin with, we do know that corrupted Elven spirits may refuse the Summon of Mandos (they are also called the Houseless) and Men cannot. In fact there is not a single example of a Mannish spirit lingering in Middle-earth being attached to a body/form different than his own (neither to remain in the same state of the Houseless, unseen by the living).

There was an article about the lineage of the priest-kings of Número in some Other Hands magazine. If you think about it, they are the closest thing to "clerics" in D&D sense in Middle-earth with powers which comes from their "holy" heritage such:

- Magical healing (the hands of the King are the hands of a healer).
- Foresight (Tar-Palantir, twentieth-four King of Númenor).
- Calling upon Eru to curse the Oathbreakers.

I think we both may agree Isildur's curse have at least *something* to do with the fate of the Oathbreakers. There were plenty of oathbreakers in the history of Middle-earth, but we know only about these ghosts.

In fact other powerful curses are the Curse of Mandos and the curse of Mogoth on Húrin's line, meaning that curses hold power, as much as those who place them.

Caran Gaur
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Re: Cuiviénen Flashback

Post by Caran Gaur » Tue Sep 23, 2014 12:20 pm

Falenthal wrote:Very, very interesting, Arthadan.
So, the Werewolf might be Carcharoth reborn? After all, Huan DID kill him.
Or, like it happens in DoM, he cannot be killed, but reincarnates in a different body.
In Caran Gaur campaign, ( in french for the moment, sorry), I took the problem from another angle by creating a lineage of dogs who do not fear the Wargs. Dogs with remaining blood of Huan who slew Carcharoth. The lineage reappears among the Woodmen's dogs and are a great help in resisting to irresistible progress of the shadow.
A werewolf, breeded from the hand of Sauron, was commissioned to eliminate this race whose existence is unbearable for his master...

Otaku-sempai
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Re: Cuiviénen Flashback

Post by Otaku-sempai » Tue Sep 23, 2014 3:35 pm

Did the lights in the Dead Marshes represent the ghosts of the slain? Or were they non-humaniod spirits inhabiting the corpses of the dead? Or were they some sort of echo?
"Far, far below the deepest delvings of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he."

Glorelendil
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Re: Cuiviénen Flashback

Post by Glorelendil » Tue Sep 23, 2014 4:11 pm

Caran Gaur wrote:
Falenthal wrote:Very, very interesting, Arthadan.
So, the Werewolf might be Carcharoth reborn? After all, Huan DID kill him.
Or, like it happens in DoM, he cannot be killed, but reincarnates in a different body.
In Caran Gaur campaign, ( in french for the moment, sorry), I took the problem from another angle by creating a lineage of dogs who do not fear the Wargs. Dogs with remaining blood of Huan who slew Carcharoth. The lineage reappears among the Woodmen's dogs and are a great help in resisting to irresistible progress of the shadow.
A werewolf, breeded from the hand of Sauron, was commissioned to eliminate this race whose existence is unbearable for his master...
Wow I'd love to add another option for Hound of Mirkwood:

"Blood of the Great Hound"
By spending 3 XP and spending a Fellowship Phase, the Hound 'awakens' to his (or her) great lineage, and his destiny as a foe of all wargs and werewolves. When fighting such creatures, the most powerful warg or werewolf engages the Hound instead of a hero, losing two points of Hate every turn. If the warg or werewolf rolls an Eye for an attack, the Hound is Wounded and flees the fight. Otherwise he fights valiantly for the duration of the combat, taking no relevant damage. If the adversary is killed, the next most powerful warg or werewolf then attacks the Hound. Heroes may freely attack an adversary so engaged.

That was the very first ability that came to mind...it could take all sorts of forms, none of which require statting out the Hound.

P.S. Maybe that's what I want for the forthcoming adventurer's companion book: an expansion of Virtues. Not new virtues, but additional powers that can be added to existing Virtues by spending XP.
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Blubbo Baggins
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Re: Cuiviénen Flashback

Post by Blubbo Baggins » Tue Sep 23, 2014 4:44 pm

Elfcrusher wrote: P.S. Maybe that's what I want for the forthcoming adventurer's companion book: an expansion of Virtues. Not new virtues, but additional powers that can be added to existing Virtues by spending XP.

This - absolutely - additional powers added to existing Virtues. They not only make character development more interesting, adding new choices and flavor, but can also re-invigorate the older cultures. So instead of people creating PCs out of just the new cultures that come with the Companion, the older, well-played cultures are also made interesting because of new options.

At the risk of moving away from the topic of this post....

I'd like to see the following Virtues (and Rewards!) further expanded:
Dwarves: Helm of Awe (Some reward related to resisting fire or other kinds of damage), Broken Spells
Beornings: Night-goer
Bardings: Spear of Bladorthin (why not make this option more interesting with further development/investment)
Hobbits: Brave at a Pinch... how else could this Virtue be developed?
Men of the Lake: Merchant Prince... would be fun if it could be developed to tie into Holdings.
Etc...

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