Question about revised edition rules for Shepherd's Bow

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PaulButler
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Question about revised edition rules for Shepherd's Bow

Post by PaulButler » Fri Jan 02, 2015 11:53 pm

So... in the slipcase edition, the rules for Shepherd's Bow read as follows:
"When you get a <Gandalf rune> on the Feat die using a Shepherd's Bow, inflict extra damage equal to your Damage rating (regardless of the level of success.)"
I had always taken this to mean that you get your Damage rating added to your total damage which is over and above extra damage generated by a great or extraordinary success.

Now, the Revised edition has the rules as follows:
"If you roll a great or extraordinary success on an attack using a Shepherd's Bow, you inflict extra damage equal to your basic Heart rating."
Note the deletion of the "regardless of the level of success" bit.
So in the new version, how does it resolve?
1. You use your basic Heart rating instead of your Damage rating when adding the extra damage based on great or extraordinary successes.

OR

2. You add your basic Heart rating in addition to your Damage rating when adding the extra damage based on success level. Which is how I interpreted the original slipcase rule.

If the answer is #1, that makes the Bow effectively useless for characters with a high Body and low Heart, and also, make Dour-Handed similarly useless for such a character, unless it adds 1 to the new (Heart-based) damage rating.

Thoughts?

Falenthal
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Re: Question about revised edition rules for Shepherd's Bow

Post by Falenthal » Sat Jan 03, 2015 1:09 am

I would also go with option 2, but remember that Woodmen have a higher Heart rating than Body. So, it wouldn't be useless for them. In fact, it would increase the extra damage a Woodmen can inflict.

But your concern about Dour-handed is interesting, I hadn't thought about that.

Eitherway, I would add Heart to the total damage.

PaulButler
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Re: Question about revised edition rules for Shepherd's Bow

Post by PaulButler » Sat Jan 03, 2015 1:38 am

Falenthal wrote:I would also go with option 2, but remember that Woodmen have a higher Heart rating than Body. So, it wouldn't be useless for them. In fact, it would increase the extra damage a Woodmen can inflict.

But your concern about Dour-handed is interesting, I hadn't thought about that.

Eitherway, I would add Heart to the total damage.
I hadn't quite realized that all builds for Woodmen had Heart higher (or at least equal to) Body.

zedturtle
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Re: Question about revised edition rules for Shepherd's Bow

Post by zedturtle » Sat Jan 03, 2015 2:34 am

Since damage from Great and Extraordinary successes are bonuses to the weapon's inherent damage, I would interpret the Shepherd's bow to do damage over and above that... i.e. a Great Success is Weapon + Body + Heart and Extraordinary is Weapon + Body + Body + Heart.

That does make it a very desirable thing to have... much better than making the bow Grievous. Huh. Now it seems too good...

But it would not have been difficult to write:

A Shepherd's Bow uses a hero's Heart rating to determine bonus damage.

or

A Shepherd's Bow uses a hero's favoured Heart rating to determine bonus damage.

which is what I would have done if I was writing the rule.

Instead, we got what we have. Which makes me think that it is Heart + Body, which means that's a powerful bow that gets better as the hero improves!
Jacob Rodgers, occasional nitwit.

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Glorelendil
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Re: Question about revised edition rules for Shepherd's Bow

Post by Glorelendil » Sat Jan 03, 2015 4:29 am

It's Body + Heart. It has to be.

The delta between Body and Heart across the 6 backgrounds is 0, 1, 1, 2, 3, 4. Which means if it's Heart instead of Body then it's value ranges from worthless to good.

I tried doing the math on Body plus Heart, but it's messy. For Skill 3, and ignoring the fact that Great and Extraordinary Successes occur more frequently in successful attacks than they do in a basic 6x6x6 matrix (because you're more likely to hit with 2 6's in your roll than you are with snake eyes), then only Woodmen with Heart 6 get more benefit from Shepherds Bow than they would from just taking Grievous. But, again, in practice it's probably better than that. And it gets better with more dice.

Tell you what. I'm going to model it. Be back in a flash.
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Glorelendil
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Re: Question about revised edition rules for Shepherd's Bow

Post by Glorelendil » Sat Jan 03, 2015 4:44 am

Here you go:

Code: Select all

Skill: 2, TN12 = 0.51 extra damage per point of Heart
Skill: 2, TN14 = 0.53 extra damage per point of Heart
Skill: 2, TN16 = 0.57 extra damage per point of Heart
Skill: 2, TN18 = 0.59 extra damage per point of Heart
Skill: 2, TN20 = 0.55 extra damage per point of Heart
Skill: 2, TN22 = 0.42 extra damage per point of Heart
Skill: 3, TN12 = 0.56 extra damage per point of Heart
Skill: 3, TN14 = 0.57 extra damage per point of Heart
Skill: 3, TN16 = 0.69 extra damage per point of Heart
Skill: 3, TN18 = 0.82 extra damage per point of Heart
Skill: 3, TN20 = 0.78 extra damage per point of Heart
Skill: 3, TN22 = 0.79 extra damage per point of Heart
Skill: 4, TN12 = 0.62 extra damage per point of Heart
Skill: 4, TN14 = 0.7 extra damage per point of Heart
Skill: 4, TN16 = 0.78 extra damage per point of Heart
Skill: 4, TN18 = 0.78 extra damage per point of Heart
Skill: 4, TN20 = 0.88 extra damage per point of Heart
Skill: 4, TN22 = 0.92 extra damage per point of Heart
Skill: 5, TN12 = 0.82 extra damage per point of Heart
Skill: 5, TN14 = 0.8 extra damage per point of Heart
Skill: 5, TN16 = 0.87 extra damage per point of Heart
Skill: 5, TN18 = 0.86 extra damage per point of Heart
Skill: 5, TN20 = 0.91 extra damage per point of Heart
Skill: 5, TN22 = 0.94 extra damage per point of Heart
Skill: 6, TN12 = 0.94 extra damage per point of Heart
Skill: 6, TN14 = 0.93 extra damage per point of Heart
Skill: 6, TN16 = 0.9 extra damage per point of Heart
Skill: 6, TN18 = 0.93 extra damage per point of Heart
Skill: 6, TN20 = 0.93 extra damage per point of Heart
Skill: 6, TN22 = 1.08 extra damage per point of Heart
So, for example, at Skill 4 against a TN of 16 and with a Heart score of 5, a Shepherds Bow adds about 3.9 points of damage per hit, averaging the Great and Extraordinary Success with the normal hits. Or nearly twice as good as Grievous.

With Heart 4 the numbers go down 20%...about at parity with Grievous at Skill 3. With Heart 6 it rocks regardless of skill.

But if it were just Heart (not Body), these numbers would be less than half as much. Plus, as Zed points out, it would have been so easy to write the description to make that point clear that it seems doubtful that was the intent.

P.S. Also bear in mind that higher Heart scores tend to go hand-in-hand with lower Body scores, so the bonus for the bow becomes large but it's starting from a low base.
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Yepesnopes
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Re: Question about revised edition rules for Shepherd's Bow

Post by Yepesnopes » Sat Jan 03, 2015 8:02 am

Option 2 is the correct one

Glorelendil
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Re: Question about revised edition rules for Shepherd's Bow

Post by Glorelendil » Sat Jan 03, 2015 5:07 pm

I hadn't noticed the change to Shepherd's Bow until I read this thread. My next character is a Woodman archer for sure. I've yet to play an archer because the mechanics just didn't appeal to me.

I'm picturing a lean & wiry scout/hunter. Lots of Movement and Survival skills. Walk softly and carry a big bow. Eventually get Hound and Natural Watchfulness.

EDIT: Apprentice to the Mountain Folk background with a Grievous Shepherds Great Bow does 27 points on an Extraordinary Success. God I'm such a powergamer it makes me sick.
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zedturtle
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Re: Question about revised edition rules for Shepherd's Bow

Post by zedturtle » Sat Jan 03, 2015 5:32 pm

In large fellowships (six or above), having a couple of archers is really beneficial. In fact, you should have a group of six have two archers: your woodman and a Hobbit with Fair Shot and a Bow of the North Downs. Then you'd have {wait for it......} two munchkins and a load of ranged damage.
Jacob Rodgers, occasional nitwit.

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Glorelendil
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Re: Question about revised edition rules for Shepherd's Bow

Post by Glorelendil » Sat Jan 03, 2015 6:18 pm

zedturtle wrote:In large fellowships (six or above), having a couple of archers is really beneficial. In fact, you should have a group of six have two archers: your woodman and a Hobbit with Fair Shot and a Bow of the North Downs. Then you'd have {wait for it......} two munchkins and a load of ranged damage.
And on the front line a Lakeman with Shield Fighting and Great Shield, a Noldor with Wits 8 and a Lesser Ring (Wits), a Dwarf with Dwarven Hauberk, and another Hobbit with Small Folk, Favoured Wits of 9, Kings Blade and Buckler.

The whole front line could stay in Defensive while the archers wreaked havoc.
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