Weapon ranges way too short?

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Ferretz
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Weapon ranges way too short?

Post by Ferretz » Thu Mar 20, 2014 11:36 am

There is a small table on page 115 of the Adventurers Book that has the ranges for thrown spears, bows and great bows. Now, these ranges are way to short, especially for the bows.

Now I'm no expert with medieval bows (although I'm into archery with modern recurve and compound bows), but from what I've read, medieval long bows could fire up to 400 yards. If the Great Bow in TOR is a kind of long bow, between 40 and 50 yards at long range seems a little short.

For the spears, I'm not too sure about the ranges. Athletes throwing javelins can reach up to over 90 meters, but they wouldn't last long against orcs, would they. Still, between 20 and 30 meters still seems a bit short on long range.

Of course, this table rarely comes up in our campaign, as ranges in combat are not measured in any detailed way.

Thoughts?


Eirik

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Re: Weapon ranges way too short?

Post by Woodclaw » Thu Mar 20, 2014 12:02 pm

Ferretz wrote:There is a small table on page 115 of the Adventurers Book that has the ranges for thrown spears, bows and great bows. Now, these ranges are way to short, especially for the bows.

Now I'm no expert with medieval bows (although I'm into archery with modern recurve and compound bows), but from what I've read, medieval long bows could fire up to 400 yards. If the Great Bow in TOR is a kind of long bow, between 40 and 50 yards at long range seems a little short.

For the spears, I'm not too sure about the ranges. Athletes throwing javelins can reach up to over 90 meters, but they wouldn't last long against orcs, would they. Still, between 20 and 30 meters still seems a bit short on long range.

Of course, this table rarely comes up in our campaign, as ranges in combat are not measured in any detailed way.

Thoughts?


Eirik
I think there's one problem with your numbers and that's separating straight shooting from curved shooting. A range of 400 yards with a longbow is possible but it would require a 45° angle which means that the arrow would hit with a rather awkward bitting angle. Plus there's the issue of precision, aiming at a human sized target from 400 yards without any kind of optic isn't exactly easy. As far as I know these ranges were measured from battlefield conditions were companies of archers fired in massive volleys and the result wasn't so different from modern day mortar fire.
On the subject of throwing weapons, I can tell you that the current world recond for a straight toss is around 25 meters with a tomahawk. According to historical sources and modern experiment the maximum range of a Roman Pilum was 25-30 meters. A 90 meters toss is possible but, like a 45° shot with a bow, not very effective in a skirmish were the opponents aren't massed together.
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Glorelendil
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Re: Weapon ranges way too short?

Post by Glorelendil » Thu Mar 20, 2014 12:09 pm

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Ferretz
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Re: Weapon ranges way too short?

Post by Ferretz » Thu Mar 20, 2014 12:34 pm

Again, I'm no expert, and I use modern bows, but I can easily hit a target at 30 yards. Those nasty people using bows in hunting can wound and even kill a deer at 60 yards.

The problem with setting such low maximum ranges in a rpg, I think, is that you disallow something, instead of just making it harder. Characters should be able to shoot arrows longer than 40 yards, and even hit stuff. What's interesting is how difficult it is. Because we all now it's possible. :)

Eirik

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Re: Weapon ranges way too short?

Post by Glorelendil » Thu Mar 20, 2014 12:54 pm

Ferretz wrote:Those nasty people using bows in hunting
A little editorialism?
The problem with setting such low maximum ranges in a rpg, I think, is that you disallow something, instead of just making it harder. Characters should be able to shoot arrows longer than 40 yards, and even hit stuff. What's interesting is how difficult it is. Because we all now it's possible. :)
I see both sides. A rule like, "increase TN by 2 for every increment of the weapon's Range value" is pretty simple, but then all of the sudden players start wanting to know the number of yards in every encounter. One thing I love about TOR is it's support for pure Theatre of the Mind play.

Besides, maybe in Middle Earth they just haven't figured out how to make good bows. Or it never occurred to them to feather their arrows. Or something.
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Rocmistro
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Re: Weapon ranges way too short?

Post by Rocmistro » Thu Mar 20, 2014 3:08 pm

Ferretz wrote:Again, I'm no expert, and I use modern bows, but I can easily hit a target at 30 yards. Those nasty people using bows in hunting can wound and even kill a deer at 60 yards.

Eirik
A yeah, this is uncalled for. I hunt, (bow and gun), and I can guarantee you my prey meets a more merciful and natural fate than all the animals that "you" (generic you) consume from a grocery store.
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Beleg
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Re: Weapon ranges way too short?

Post by Beleg » Thu Mar 20, 2014 3:10 pm

I pretty much ignore the distance table. The only way distance has ever come into our sessions is when the party has been traversing the more open areas between the Anduin and Mirkwood and come across enemies in the distance. What I've done then is simply allow those characters with bows an extra opening volley to signify the increased range capability of a bow over a spear

Glorelendil
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Re: Weapon ranges way too short?

Post by Glorelendil » Thu Mar 20, 2014 3:19 pm

Beleg wrote:I pretty much ignore the distance table. The only way distance has ever come into our sessions is when the party has been traversing the more open areas between the Anduin and Mirkwood and come across enemies in the distance. What I've done then is simply allow those characters with bows an extra opening volley to signify the increased range capability of a bow over a spear
I could see imposing a small penalty on that first volley.
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DavetheLost
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Re: Weapon ranges way too short?

Post by DavetheLost » Thu Mar 20, 2014 3:23 pm

Most bowhunting shots are at 30 yards or less. Yes, a decent bow can throw an arrow 200 yards or more, but that is using plunging fire, the sort you use against massed troops, not individual targets.

Hitting a moving, man sized target at 60 yards with a bow is no mean feat. Especially when your adrenaline cranks into high gear with impending life or death combat.

To put it in a bit of perspective, FBI statistics show that 80% or more of gun fights occur at ranges of ten feet or less. Of those well more than half the shots fired miss. Now, what was that question about ranged weapons in RPGs not being effective enough?

For those who are very interested in the subject google Dr Ed Ashby's arrow lethality studies. A very thorough statistical analysis of the performance of arrows of various designs against real animals.

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Re: Weapon ranges way too short?

Post by Stormcrow » Thu Mar 20, 2014 3:29 pm

Historically, archery in battle used indirect fire, or was used to defend walls. Once units were close enough to engage in melee, archery was abandoned; you might hit your own troops. Indirect fire relies on massed archers sending a hail of arrows, not on aiming at specific individuals.

D&D-style archery is what you do when hunting. This is what the range table represents in The One Ring. It's also how a single archer hits a single opponent, but remember that this is not how medieval Europeans used it in war.

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