Trolls and Sunlight.

Adventure in the world of J.R.R. Tolkien’s The Lord of the Rings. Learn more at our website: http://www.cubicle7.co.uk/our-games/the-one-ring/
Glorelendil
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Re: Trolls and Sunlight.

Post by Glorelendil » Fri Mar 27, 2015 11:13 pm

I'm just gonna sit this one out. And pop some corn.
The Munchkin Formerly Known as Elfcrusher
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zedturtle
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Re: Trolls and Sunlight.

Post by zedturtle » Sat Mar 28, 2015 1:56 am

Stormcrow wrote:I think it is my opinion...
It is good that you express such caution, as reviewing the quotes you so kindly provided reminds us that Tolkien was in the process of revising the myths that comprise the Silmarillion and that in Morgoth's Ring we are presented with a version of the creation myth that presents the Sun (and Moon) as having existed before the Stars. That would, of course, present a challenge for our supposition that Stone Trolls have a design flaw due to Morgoth not anticipating the Sun.

So, like many things about the legendarium, there is room for multiple interpretations. We are free to choose our own interpretations and must place faith (well situated, so far) that the developers will select an interpretation that provides the best gaming experience. In fact, experience has shown that they sometimes leave things vague, so that there is room for each of us to present Middle Earth in the way that appeals to us the most.

As an aside, I often (here and elsewhere) ask for criticism... there are always ways for me to improve, things that I make mistakes on, new things for me to learn. Sometimes I will tell those I ask for criticism a little bit about my life, and how it affects my reaction to criticism. It will probably shock few of you that I have formal training (i.e. college) in Graphic Design. As part of my experience, we were asked to draw self-portraits in one of our art classes, which were they critiqued by the class. So you draw yourself, as you present yourself, and as you want to be represented, and then others criticize that. It's a very good experience, especially for a career in which you must present ideas, defend them, and also be open to new ideas from others.

Why am I telling this long story? Because I know that taking criticism is hard. Sometimes you're right and you need to substantiate your idea. Sometimes you're wrong, and you need to go a different way. Sometimes you need to meet in the middle, not veering too strongly one way or another.

- - - - -

And to get things back on track, here's Rôg, who I think might have gotten lost in all the excitement:
Rôg wrote:You speak of the Úvanimor.

Be careful what you wish for, you never know who is listening.

:twisted:
Intriguing. Although I would argue that the bestiary of Middle Earth should not become too large, lest it lose its specialness. But I'm amenable to one-offs, like we saw in Nightmares of Angmar.
Jacob Rodgers, occasional nitwit.

This space intentionally blank.

Arthadan
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Re: Trolls and Sunlight.

Post by Arthadan » Sun Mar 29, 2015 4:52 pm

@Stormcrow, I apologise if my remark sounded harsh somehow. English is not my first language (as you have probably noticed by now!). I (miss)understood you were saying Tolkien stated an exact meaning of "Twilight", which to my limited knowledge is innacurate.

I think the first quote you have provided refers to the Twilight of the Elven Race, that is their decline in Middle-earth caused by their spirits being wasted by the hardships of the world which would make them flee to Aman. However, the other two do support your interpretation of Twilight being the time before the Sun. Thanks for the quotes, I've learnt something new!

Then we have the doubt about Mountain and Hill trolls enduring the Sun without being olog-hai (at least not called by that name). And the second doubt, if all the Twilight Trolls turn to stone. Since there is nothing definitive, I guess we'll have to leave it open.
Last edited by Arthadan on Mon Mar 30, 2015 9:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Shane
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Re: Trolls and Sunlight.

Post by Shane » Mon Mar 30, 2015 9:40 am

Threads like this make me realise how little I know about Tolkien lore. I'm definitely not ready for a throwdown with Stephen Colbert just yet... :lol:

With that in mind, to turn this discussion around slightly and make it less about canonical interpretation, which interpretation would make for a better in-game experience?

Would it be better to quantify stuff, which means both LMs and players know what the weaknesses of certain types of trolls are, and if they can be certain their characters have identified them correctly use those weaknesses against them (like Bilbo and Gandalf did turning the three stooges to stone)?

Or would it be better to have the LM make case-by-case decisions, which would lead to more mystery, but rob the game of some of its verisimilitude and deny players the ability to get the emotional pay-off have having developed setting knowledge and using it without die rolls?

This in no way detracts from the value of understanding canon more deeply (goodness knows I learn soooo much form you folks on here that helps inform my game play for the better), but I'm also interested in how you see the canon/gameplay experience intersect in this case? For the record I'm all for being true to canon in my games... so long as it doesn't reduce the enjoyment of the game for all involved (there are limits to the "fun must win" of course; after all, this is Middle Earth we're playing, not Forgotten Realms, and if all involved don't find ME fun, then another game might be the better choice rather than stray too far from what makes this game this game).

Regards,

Shane

Otaku-sempai
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Re: Trolls and Sunlight.

Post by Otaku-sempai » Mon Mar 30, 2015 4:07 pm

From an in-game perspective, Shane, there is something to be said for having at least one or two varieties of Troll (besides the Olog-hai) who are not turned to stone by sunlight but who merely avoid the Sun because they find it unpleasant. This also makes having Troll-lore or similar abilities more valuable and useful for distinguishing these subspecies.
"Far, far below the deepest delvings of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he."

Arthadan
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Re: Trolls and Sunlight.

Post by Arthadan » Tue Mar 31, 2015 10:38 am

[The Olog hai] Unlike the older race of the Twilight they could endure the Sun, so long as the will of Sauron held sway over them
So no troll, even Olog hai, can endure the sun unless Sauron's will is upon him. I think we can all agre this is canon.

In the default game period, Sauron has fled to the east and he'll return to Mordor, so I'd say he'd be too busy to care about Wilderland.

My conclusion is no Troll should be able to endure the Sun in our games, as a general rule at least. Now the tricky part is what was Tolkien meaning exactly with "endure"? Do they turn to stone/die somehow or are they just greatly hindered? I'd go for the first for Twilight Trolls and for the second for Olog hai. But in dim light conditions, I think Twilight Trolls would be hindered and Olog hai would function normally.

Hermes Serpent
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Re: Trolls and Sunlight.

Post by Hermes Serpent » Tue Mar 31, 2015 10:44 am

One statement regarding functioning in dim light, Flocks of Crebain or Colonies of Bats.
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https://drive.google.com/folderview?id= ... sp=sharing
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