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Valour Test/Fear Test question

Posted: Wed May 21, 2014 9:02 pm
by beckett
The recent preview of the revised rules states "Bardings now enjoy a bonus to all Valour tests, not just Fear tests."

What other kind of Valour tests are there? I only see them applied to Fear tests in the LM book. Am I missing the obvious? :oops:

Re: Valour Test/Fear Test question

Posted: Wed May 21, 2014 9:09 pm
by Glorelendil
Wondered the same thing myself.

Re: Valour Test/Fear Test question

Posted: Wed May 21, 2014 9:20 pm
by Celebril
There are specific cases where you have to roll valour like if you view the Lamp of Balthi outside of its case. Technically that is not a fear test.

Re: Valour Test/Fear Test question

Posted: Wed May 21, 2014 9:21 pm
by Rich H
There are tests for Valour other than Fear Tests but they are rare.

P37 TfW
P142 TfW
P57 DoM
P115 DoM

... to name some.

Re: Valour Test/Fear Test question

Posted: Wed May 21, 2014 9:27 pm
by Rocmistro
When I first began Loremastering TOR, I was under the impression that Fear tests (Valour) and Corruption tests (Wisdom) both ended in the same result (Shadow Point gain).

My thinking was that failure and cowardice (or rather, a hero's self-condemnation of cowardice due to a failed fear test) was as equally damning to a hero's spirit and would result in the accumulation of Shadow Points.

It wasn't until later that I realized that Fear tests "only" resulted in a limitation on the ability to invoke attribute bonuses.

In hindsight, I think it's perfectly reasonable to award shadow points based on failed fear tests.

Under this (mis)understanding of Fear tests, a Barding's Cultural Blessing becomes very useful.

Re: Valour Test/Fear Test question

Posted: Wed May 21, 2014 9:40 pm
by beckett
Rich H wrote:There are tests for Valour other than Fear Tests but they are rare.

P37 TfW
P142 TfW
P57 DoM
P115 DoM

... to name some.
Thanks, Rich. It's in the other books. I was only looking at the LM's book and when I couldn't find it I began to wonder if my memory was slipping because I remembered them in play.

Re: Valour Test/Fear Test question

Posted: Wed May 21, 2014 9:47 pm
by Rich H
beckett wrote:Thanks, Rich. It's in the other books. I was only looking at the LM's book and when I couldn't find it I began to wonder if my memory was slipping because I remembered them in play.
No problem! I went through the PDF searching for Valour when it was used in a non-Fear based test. It's the only way I could find them.

Re: Valour Test/Fear Test question

Posted: Thu May 22, 2014 12:23 pm
by Michebugio
Rocmistro wrote:When I first began Loremastering TOR, I was under the impression that Fear tests (Valour) and Corruption tests (Wisdom) both ended in the same result (Shadow Point gain).

My thinking was that failure and cowardice (or rather, a hero's self-condemnation of cowardice due to a failed fear test) was as equally damning to a hero's spirit and would result in the accumulation of Shadow Points.

It wasn't until later that I realized that Fear tests "only" resulted in a limitation on the ability to invoke attribute bonuses.

In hindsight, I think it's perfectly reasonable to award shadow points based on failed fear tests.

Under this (mis)understanding of Fear tests, a Barding's Cultural Blessing becomes very useful.
That's an interesting point of view, but that would raise Valour importance a bit too much over Wisdom IMHO.
However I think I'm stealing from you this rule, but award a Shadow Point only on a failed Fear check that has an Eye result on the Feat dice (essentially, making it equal to the less dangerous Corruption check type). A normal failure should not be considered cowardice, maybe only self-preservation instinct: but a catastrophic failure (Eye) has more likely moral consequences on the character, since it would mean he screams, or he tries to demoralize his companions ("WE'RE DOOMED!").

Re: Valour Test/Fear Test question

Posted: Thu May 22, 2014 12:53 pm
by Yusei
Rocmistro wrote:In hindsight, I think it's perfectly reasonable to award shadow points based on failed fear tests.
That's an interesting idea, but on the other hand, I don't think failing a Fear test means being cowardly. It is perfectly fine to be afraid of a Nazgul, but if you still decide to fight it, why should you gain Shadow? It is pretty heroic.

I think one could give shadow points when a failed fear test has negative consequences, and the character knows it. For example, if he could have saved someone by adding an attribute bonus, but he couldn't because he was scared.

Re: Valour Test/Fear Test question

Posted: Thu May 22, 2014 2:11 pm
by Rocmistro
Michebugio wrote: That's an interesting point of view, but that would raise Valour importance a bit too much over Wisdom IMHO.
However I think I'm stealing from you this rule, but award a Shadow Point only on a failed Fear check that has an Eye result on the Feat dice (essentially, making it equal to the less dangerous Corruption check type). A normal failure should not be considered cowardice, maybe only self-preservation instinct: but a catastrophic failure (Eye) has more likely moral consequences on the character, since it would mean he screams, or he tries to demoralize his companions ("WE'RE DOOMED!").
Agreed. It makes Valour a bit too good. But, at the time I was running it, I didn't realize that what Fear Tests actually did, so it all worked out ok. Now that I do realize what fear tests do, I would consider adjudicating exactly as you indicated.

Yusei wrote:
Rocmistro wrote:In hindsight, I think it's perfectly reasonable to award shadow points based on failed fear tests.
That's an interesting idea, but on the other hand, I don't think failing a Fear test means being cowardly. It is perfectly fine to be afraid of a Nazgul, but if you still decide to fight it, why should you gain Shadow? It is pretty heroic.

I think one could give shadow points when a failed fear test has negative consequences, and the character knows it. For example, if he could have saved someone by adding an attribute bonus, but he couldn't because he was scared.
I think they key difference is that it's not an onlooker's opinion of one's "cowardice" but rather a self-condemnation. In other words, an independent bystander might say "You faced down a Nazgul! That is incredibly brave and heroic regardless of the outcome or how well you did!" Whereas the hero himself might think "Perhaps, but there is more that I could have done had I only acted a bit more bravely!"

You see and hear stories like this all the time, of veterans or military guys returning home, even though they might have acted incredibly valiantly, facing down bullets and grenades and mortars and shelling, but still beating themselves up over the fact that they couldn't save their buddy.

Oh and by the way, I'm not suggesting anyone actually adopt my suggestions here, just offering a new interpretation in light of my original (mis)understanding of the rules.