Hobbit Virtues: Big Disparity?
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Hobbit Virtues: Big Disparity?
Does anybody else think that some Hobbit virtues are amazing, and others...lackluster? Or, at least, highly situational. I'd love to know the distribution of virtues selected for Hobbits; my guess is that most players choose the same ones.
This came up because I'm trying to make a Hobbit character, and I'm super excited for my first Virtue, but looking ahead there aren't many others I'd be excited about spending Wisdom increases on. Which is too bad, because I'm envisioning a relatively non-martial Hobbit, so increasing Valour and buying gear improvements doesn't seem to fit. With other cultures, though, I can hardly wait to get the Virtues.
Here's my assessment:
Small Folk: Amazing. Bonus almost every time you are attacked.
Fair Shot: Amazing. Bonus every time you attack with range.
Tough in the Fibre: Decent, although situational in the sense that it is most useful when two battles follow each other in close succession. In my play experience...admittedly not that extensive...fellowships tend to look for a place to rest and heal after a bad fight.
Art of Disappearing: Really fun in principle, but the Hope cost makes me wonder. When is it worth a Hope point to vanish, if your companions are all left behind? (I'd love to hear some cases where people have used it.)
Brave in a Pinch: Again, highly situational (I wrote a paragraph on the math behind that claim but deleted it; if anybody disagrees or doesn't understand let's discuss it...).
So two amazing virtues, but the amazingness is mutually exclusive: if you're planning to be an archer you want one and the other is merely good. If you planning to go close combat one is great and the other is mostly useless (opening volleys, I guess....c.f. Spear of King Bladorthin discussion.)
Taking a cue from some of the virtues of the two new cultures in Rivendell, I'd like to see the last three virtues have expanded benefits. Some examples:
Art of Disappearing: Maybe gain the Elusive trait? (Precedent with Small Folk.)
Tough in the Fibre: Maybe roll the Feat die twice when resisting Poison or things like Black Breath?
Brave in a Pinch: Maybe Weary gets cancelled for the rest of the fight/encounter, not just the next action?
Thoughts? Or is my calling 'Powergamer' and I'm suffering a bout of shadow madness? (Level 4: Munchkin)
EDIT: Oh, and I'd like to see "Fair Shot" include raising Dagger skill to 2, if it's still at 1. Only because Dagger is the skill used for throwing improvised (i.e. rocks) weapons. Throwing a rock with skill 2 and two rolls of the Feat die makes for a decent opening volley. And it would have almost no effect on dedicated archers.
This came up because I'm trying to make a Hobbit character, and I'm super excited for my first Virtue, but looking ahead there aren't many others I'd be excited about spending Wisdom increases on. Which is too bad, because I'm envisioning a relatively non-martial Hobbit, so increasing Valour and buying gear improvements doesn't seem to fit. With other cultures, though, I can hardly wait to get the Virtues.
Here's my assessment:
Small Folk: Amazing. Bonus almost every time you are attacked.
Fair Shot: Amazing. Bonus every time you attack with range.
Tough in the Fibre: Decent, although situational in the sense that it is most useful when two battles follow each other in close succession. In my play experience...admittedly not that extensive...fellowships tend to look for a place to rest and heal after a bad fight.
Art of Disappearing: Really fun in principle, but the Hope cost makes me wonder. When is it worth a Hope point to vanish, if your companions are all left behind? (I'd love to hear some cases where people have used it.)
Brave in a Pinch: Again, highly situational (I wrote a paragraph on the math behind that claim but deleted it; if anybody disagrees or doesn't understand let's discuss it...).
So two amazing virtues, but the amazingness is mutually exclusive: if you're planning to be an archer you want one and the other is merely good. If you planning to go close combat one is great and the other is mostly useless (opening volleys, I guess....c.f. Spear of King Bladorthin discussion.)
Taking a cue from some of the virtues of the two new cultures in Rivendell, I'd like to see the last three virtues have expanded benefits. Some examples:
Art of Disappearing: Maybe gain the Elusive trait? (Precedent with Small Folk.)
Tough in the Fibre: Maybe roll the Feat die twice when resisting Poison or things like Black Breath?
Brave in a Pinch: Maybe Weary gets cancelled for the rest of the fight/encounter, not just the next action?
Thoughts? Or is my calling 'Powergamer' and I'm suffering a bout of shadow madness? (Level 4: Munchkin)
EDIT: Oh, and I'd like to see "Fair Shot" include raising Dagger skill to 2, if it's still at 1. Only because Dagger is the skill used for throwing improvised (i.e. rocks) weapons. Throwing a rock with skill 2 and two rolls of the Feat die makes for a decent opening volley. And it would have almost no effect on dedicated archers.
The Munchkin Formerly Known as Elfcrusher
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Re: Hobbit Virtues: Big Disparity?
Oh, I agree....but it's exactly the part about not knowing if you will ever use the virtue that gives me hesitation. That's why I'd like to see them have secondary benefits. It's entirely possibly that you will go through multiple adventures and never get to "use" your virtue. One of the fun parts of RPGs is expanding your toolbox as you gain experience.vilainn6 wrote:Your problems with Brave of a pinch and though in the fibre may come From your Loremaster and not the rules. If he is going easy on your group, alowing you to recover all the time or every time you rest in a safe place, he simply said: "you stay there until you all recover", then yes these virtues are not that great.
Brave of a pinch is situational but you never know when a moment appears and you wish to have that virtue. I have the exemple in my head of a weary hobbit needing to do a protection test or die. Brave of a pinch can save him.
Sure, but "houserule" and "refluff" could be the answer to every discussion about the rules. Sometimes it's just fun to dissect the rules and imagine improvements because...well, it's more fun than working.You can alway talk to your Loremaster and ask him to houserule your change. It is your game after all.
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Re: Hobbit Virtues: Big Disparity?
Before I comment to defend some of the Hobbit Virtues, I will say I am completely behind C7 expanding a good number of the Virtues. Your ideas, especially for Fair Shot, are good, and I really hope that in the Adventurer's Companion, they release a few ways that Virtues can be further expanded upon. This adds depth to the character's library, and it also adds new ways to add story in the Fellowship phase and things to spend XP on. All good in my book.Glorelendil wrote:Does anybody else think that some Hobbit virtues are amazing, and others...lackluster? Or, at least, highly situational. I'd love to know the distribution of virtues selected for Hobbits; my guess is that most players choose the same ones.
Small Folk: Amazing. Bonus almost every time you are attacked.
Fair Shot: Amazing. Bonus every time you attack with range.
Tough in the Fibre: Decent, although situational in the sense that it is most useful when two battles follow each other in close succession. In my play experience...admittedly not that extensive...fellowships tend to look for a place to rest and heal after a bad fight.
Art of Disappearing: Really fun in principle, but the Hope cost makes me wonder. When is it worth a Hope point to vanish, if your companions are all left behind? (I'd love to hear some cases where people have used it.)
Brave in a Pinch: Again, highly situational (I wrote a paragraph on the math behind that claim but deleted it; if anybody disagrees or doesn't understand let's discuss it...).
That being said:
Tough in the Fibre USED to be not very good. Now it is excellent with the Revised rules. Under the Revised rules, if you are not in a safe place (ie NOT on the road!) unwounded PCs recover just 2 Endurance per day! That is a big rules change. If you are a Hobbit with this Virtue, you recover as if you ARE in a safe place...so much faster. If you fight a battle, and are forced to continue a journey, and something bad happens within a few days, most PCs will still be low on Endurance/possibly Weary. A Hobbit with Tough in the Fibre? Should be fully recovered within a day or two.
Brave at a Pinch: the only real limitation to this Virtue is the fact that it costs a point of Hope. However, I have considered building a Hobbit around this Virtue, not only for mechanics but story sake. Yes, you might have to spend Hope to use it a lot, but this is the Virtue to take if you want to make Weariness almost a non-factor. A Hobbit with 3d or 4d armor - with this Virtue, why not? If it's a bad time to get wounded, you'll spend Hope to add your Body score to the roll and ignore Weariness. There are, mathematically, some situations where if you hadn't been wearing the armor, you wouldn't have been weary, and therefore would not have needed to spend Hope. You can make a Hobbit "defender" with this Virtue, in my opinion.
Art of Disappearing: Think about Bilbo escaping capture and therefore freeing all his Dwarven friends. Or, if a Hobbit is a scout, gets seen by the enemy, disappears going in the opposite direction from the company, then returns to them in a roundabout way. He can scout, get away from the enemy AND prevent them from finding the company. This is a very good virtue, though I can see why it would be situational, I can also see when the situation arises it could be critical.
Anyway, probably all stuff you have considered.
Re: Hobbit Virtues: Big Disparity?
Our Hobbit has chosen Fair Shot and Tough in the Fibre.
BTW, I really like your idea for using rocks with Fair Shot, el. I was just thinking about that yesterday (during the movie), as Decipher's game had a way of making Hobbits really great with throwing rocks.
Blubbo is spot-on with how good Tough in the Fibre is; our Hobbit heals (well, recovers Endurance) much quicker than everyone else, and it's an extremely useful ability.
I don't find the expenditure of Hope (for things like Brave at a Pinch) to be too troublesome for Hobbit-folk, either, as they have more of it than anyone else.
BTW, I really like your idea for using rocks with Fair Shot, el. I was just thinking about that yesterday (during the movie), as Decipher's game had a way of making Hobbits really great with throwing rocks.
Blubbo is spot-on with how good Tough in the Fibre is; our Hobbit heals (well, recovers Endurance) much quicker than everyone else, and it's an extremely useful ability.
I don't find the expenditure of Hope (for things like Brave at a Pinch) to be too troublesome for Hobbit-folk, either, as they have more of it than anyone else.
Tale of Years for a second, lower-level group (in the same campaign).
Re: Hobbit Virtues: Big Disparity?
Hah, you haven't even gotten into Virtue/Reward synergy!
Small Folk combined with a King's Blade turns your hobbit into a tiny killing machine who is both incredibly hard to hit and has a staggeringly efficient means of transforming Hope into Wounds. God help your enemies if he puts Keen on that thing, as well.
Small Folk combined with a King's Blade turns your hobbit into a tiny killing machine who is both incredibly hard to hit and has a staggeringly efficient means of transforming Hope into Wounds. God help your enemies if he puts Keen on that thing, as well.
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Re: Hobbit Virtues: Big Disparity?
EDITED: I'm not arguing that there aren't some great virtues, just that some of them are fantastic and the rest are lackluster. I meant "disparity" within the culture, between virtues. Not that hobbits have worse overall virtues than other cultures.Murcushio wrote:Hah, you haven't even gotten into Virtue/Reward synergy!
Small Folk combined with a King's Blade turns your hobbit into a tiny killing machine who is both incredibly hard to hit and has a staggeringly efficient means of transforming Hope into Wounds. God help your enemies if he puts Keen on that thing, as well.
Last edited by Glorelendil on Fri Dec 19, 2014 4:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The Munchkin Formerly Known as Elfcrusher
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Re: Hobbit Virtues: Big Disparity?
Be wary of Squads of tiny fur-footed creatures... 

Nothing of Worth.
Re: Hobbit Virtues: Big Disparity?
... Not playtested Hobbits under the revised rules but they were a right squad of murder hobos when I ran a fellowship of 5 of them against a couple of Stone Trolls. A couple went down (from Endurance loss) but the Stone Trolls were defeated. Poor things.
TOR resources thread: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=62
TOR miniatures thread: viewtopic.php?t=885
Fellowship of the Free Tale of Years: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=8318
TOR miniatures thread: viewtopic.php?t=885
Fellowship of the Free Tale of Years: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=8318
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Re: Hobbit Virtues: Big Disparity?
How many of them took Small Folk or Fair Shot as their first virtue?Rich H wrote:... Not playtested Hobbits under the revised rules but they were a right squad of murder hobos when I ran a fellowship of 5 of them against a couple of Stone Trolls. A couple went down (from Endurance loss) but the Stone Trolls were defeated. Poor things.
EDIT: Horse is more than a little out of the barn on this one, but if I'm daydreaming about designing RPGs (which I do most of the day...) I wonder what it would look like if all virtues fell into one of two categories:
1) Virtues that have both a passive and frequently used benefit, and a big benefit that is related to Hope expenditure (either costing Hope, or triggers when you spend Hope in certain situations)
2) Virtues that get upgraded with future XP, e.g. Hound of Mirkwood or Against the Unseen.
The Munchkin Formerly Known as Elfcrusher
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Re: Hobbit Virtues: Big Disparity?
1x King's BladeGlorelendil wrote:How many of them took Small Folk or Fair Shot as their first virtue?
2x Small Folk
1x Thwarting (house rule that increases Parry)
1x Fell Handed
... I dread to think how lethal they'd have been in ranged combat with Fair Shot, although they likely didn't pick it because, like others have, I altered it to only work with thrown weapons and other uses when related to Common Skills (eg, playing cricket and using Athletics).
TOR resources thread: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=62
TOR miniatures thread: viewtopic.php?t=885
Fellowship of the Free Tale of Years: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=8318
TOR miniatures thread: viewtopic.php?t=885
Fellowship of the Free Tale of Years: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=8318
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