2850 or 2941 - Sauron revealed?

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daedel
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2850 or 2941 - Sauron revealed?

Post by daedel » Fri Nov 14, 2014 2:37 pm

I've always thought that Gandalf discovered that the evil power in Dol Guldur was Sauron in 2850, when he also meets Thrain, prisoner there. But in the Rivendell sourcebook I found this on pages 19-20:

In the year 2851 Gandalf the Grey bid that those still dedicated to the cause of the Free Peoples must
assemble once more (...)


"Still unconvinced by the words of Saruman, and maybe in spite of the White Wizard’s chiding, Gandalf took it
upon itself to discover the truth behind Dol Guldur and its mysterious Necromancer. After almost a century had passed since the last meeting of the Council, his research bore fruit: he discovered that the Necromancer was none other than the Dark Lord himself, Sauron. His spirit had endured and his power was growing. When the Grey Pilgrim brought his dire news to Orthanc in 2941, the White Council took action, this time ignoring Saruman’s repeated warnings against recklessness"


This little piece of information really confuses me. Can the wisest shed some light on this?
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Beran
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Re: 2850 or 2941 - Sauron revealed?

Post by Beran » Fri Nov 14, 2014 3:09 pm

Have to admit I'm not 100% up on the dates, myself...but, that does seem a little odd.

Glorelendil
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Re: 2850 or 2941 - Sauron revealed?

Post by Glorelendil » Fri Nov 14, 2014 3:42 pm

I always assumed he simply didn't know in 2850 that the Necromancer was Sauron, although he had suspicions. He was in the dungeons, but it's not like he popped into the throne room for tea. "Mmmm...good crumpets. Hey, don't I know you from somewhere?"
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Rôg
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Re: 2850 or 2941 - Sauron revealed?

Post by Rôg » Fri Nov 14, 2014 5:21 pm

I don't have the books or all my notes to hand, but as I recall, Gandalf believes it is one of the Nazgul in 2850 - only in 2941 does he determine it's actually Sauron.
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Glorelendil
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Re: 2850 or 2941 - Sauron revealed?

Post by Glorelendil » Fri Nov 14, 2014 6:44 pm

Rôg wrote:I don't have the books or all my notes to hand, but as I recall, Gandalf believes it is one of the Nazgul in 2850 - only in 2941 does he determine it's actually Sauron.
Oh, yes. This sounds familiar.
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Tolwen
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Re: 2850 or 2941 - Sauron revealed?

Post by Tolwen » Fri Nov 14, 2014 6:50 pm

daedel wrote:I've always thought that Gandalf discovered that the evil power in Dol Guldur was Sauron in 2850, when he also meets Thrain, prisoner there. But in the Rivendell sourcebook I found this on pages 19-20:

In the year 2851 Gandalf the Grey bid that those still dedicated to the cause of the Free Peoples must
assemble once more (...)


"Still unconvinced by the words of Saruman, and maybe in spite of the White Wizard’s chiding, Gandalf took it
upon itself to discover the truth behind Dol Guldur and its mysterious Necromancer. After almost a century had passed since the last meeting of the Council, his research bore fruit: he discovered that the Necromancer was none other than the Dark Lord himself, Sauron. His spirit had endured and his power was growing. When the Grey Pilgrim brought his dire news to Orthanc in 2941, the White Council took action, this time ignoring Saruman’s repeated warnings against recklessness"


This little piece of information really confuses me. Can the wisest shed some light on this?
It's actually the other way round (if you will believe the LotR):
J.R.R. Tolkien wrote:
  • 2850 Gandalf again enters Dol Guldur, and discovers that its master is indeed Sauron who is gathering all the Rings and seeking for news of the One, and of Isildur's Heir. He finds Thráin and receives the key of Erebor. Thráin dies in Dol Guldur.
  • 2851 The White Council meets. Gandalf urges an attack on Dol Guldur. Saruman overrules him.6 Saruman begins to search near the Gladden Fields.
  • 2941 The White Council meets; Saruman agrees to an attack on Dol Guldur, since he now wishes to prevent Sauron from searching the River. Sauron having made his plans abandons Dol Guldur.
6 - It afterwards became clear that Saruman had then begun to desire to possess the One Ring himself, and he hoped that it might reveal itself, seeking its master, if Sauron were let be for a time.

LotR.Appendix B
So, in TA 2850 due to the growing Shadow in DG Gandalf goes there to confirm his suspicions about the nature of the 'Necromancer' (which were foiled in his first attempt to do exactly this in TA 2063) and discovers that the 'Necromancer' is indeed Sauron (thus confirming his pre-existing suspicion). In the dungeons of the fortress (as an - important - byproduct so to say) he finds the dying Thrain II and obtains the map and key to Erebor from him. Gandalf barely escapes DG. Due to this discovery, the White Council is convened the following year and Gandalf presses for an attack on the - now confirmed - Sauron, but Saruman dissuades this (as mentioned in the text on p. 19/20 of 'Rivendell'). Nothing happens about the matter for about 90 years. Then Saruman discovers that Sauron is searching the Gladden Fields and wants him to be removed from DG (to prevent him from finding the One) and agrees to a coordinated attack which takes place in TA 2941 (and the reason why Gandalf leaves Thorin & Co. for his "Wizard business" after the visit to Beorn).

Cheers
Tolwen

EDIT: Added the footnote from Appendix B (shown in red above) which also explains why actually Saruman played this dangerous game of letting Sauron unmolested for the time being in TA 2851.
Last edited by Tolwen on Fri Nov 14, 2014 7:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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daedel
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Re: 2850 or 2941 - Sauron revealed?

Post by daedel » Fri Nov 14, 2014 7:19 pm

Thank you Tolwen for confirming this, I really appreciate it!
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Majestic
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Re: 2850 or 2941 - Sauron revealed?

Post by Majestic » Fri Nov 14, 2014 8:11 pm

Interesting stuff!

So what year did Sauron actually flee Dol Guldur? I ask because in my campaign, we started off with "Words of the Wise" in 2946, right after the Gathering of Five Armies (as recommended in that adventure), and it starts off with the PCs having encountered the Necromancer there.
Tale of Years for a second, lower-level group (in the same campaign).

Tolwen
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Re: 2850 or 2941 - Sauron revealed?

Post by Tolwen » Fri Nov 14, 2014 8:23 pm

Majestic wrote:Interesting stuff!

So what year did Sauron actually flee Dol Guldur? I ask because in my campaign, we started off with "Words of the Wise" in 2946, right after the Gathering of Five Armies (as recommended in that adventure), and it starts off with the PCs having encountered the Necromancer there.
He flees DG in 2941, as a result of the attack of the White Council (see excerpt from Appendix B above, entry for "2941"). However, he anticipated such a move for some time and planned accordingly. Thus it was not a real retreat (i.e. being forced against your determined resistance), but a well-planned feint (and probably orchestrated well enough to look convincing) that should lull the Wise in safety for as long as possible so that he could further develop his plans unmolested.
As the Nazgûl have long before begun to prepare Mordor for their masters' return, it is very likely he moved there when he left DG. In his old land he was out of reach (and intelligence) for his chief enemies. IIRC there's something in UT to this effect.

Cheers
Tolwen
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Majestic
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Re: 2850 or 2941 - Sauron revealed?

Post by Majestic » Fri Nov 14, 2014 9:48 pm

Yeah, I should have spelled out flee/"retreat for good". Thanks, Tolwen.

Well, in my summary I simply said "a shadowy figure", so it's possible something/someone else (a Nazgul, the Gibbet King?) was what they actually encountered.

Though looking at the timeline provided in the LM it clearly says "the Dark Power leaves Mirkwood" in 2941 and then later that "The Nazgul enter Dol Gulder" ten years later (2951).
Tale of Years for a second, lower-level group (in the same campaign).

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