Zed's Magic Thread

[zedturtle]

Ok, I'm wrapping up work on my magic rules, and I'd like to get opinions on one of the more challenging ones that I've been working on:

Art of Changes
You have learned how to cause changes in the world around you. You might use smoke or water to form imagery or send messages that cannot be seen or heard. In time, you may even learn to change yourself. Radagast is the most likely teacher of this art, but he is careful who he teaches the Master of Shaping art to.

• (S) Colours and Hues
  A great smoke went up. It shaped itself like a mountain seen in the distance, and began to glow at the summit. It spouted green and scarlet flames.
  
  This spell allows you to give colours and a semblance of shape to suitable mediums: smoke or fog is easiest to work, but water or sand can also be used. In every case, the working is obvious and no observer would take the illusion for reality. In most cases, the spell’s effect wears off after a few minutes.
  
  (L) Dreams and Visions
  Gandalf paused astonished and looked at him. ‘It was only a dream,’ said Frodo, ‘but it suddenly came back to me.’
  
  For they did not move or speak with mouth, looking from mind to mind; and only their shining eyes stirred and kindled as their thoughts went to and fro.
  
  When you cast this spell, you may choose to either send a dream-message to a single person (no matter the distance), or silently converse with several people nearby.
  
  If you choose to send a dream-message, you must present the Loremaster with both a theme (the content of the message) and a form (the surface elements of the dream). The Loremaster must then determine how well the dream is interpreted (a Wisdom test might be in order) by the receiver. Note that dream-messages are sometimes late in arriving.
  
  For silent conversing, the number of participants is limited to no more than the Wisdom rating of the participant with the lowest Wisdom score. Any type of conversation may be had, but this working requires continuous effort from all participants; no movement, speaking aloud or other actions are possible during this time.
  
  (P) Master of Shaping
  Beren became in all things like a werewolf to look upon, save that in his eyes there shone a spirit grim indeed but clean; and horror was in his glance as he saw upon his flank a bat-like creature clinging with creased wings.
  
  If you have a token of a particular kind of animal or adversary, you may work this magic in order to change your shape to match that kind. The magic lasts until the next sunrise, and while the working is in effect, you have the regular abilities of that creature. Using this spell to deceive others may cause you to gain Shadow Points.
  
  If you take the form of an adversary, any servant of the Shadow may spend one point of Hate to challenge you. You must either take one point of Shadow or reveal your true form.

The (S), (L) and (P) are references for the symbols on the last page I showed off... i.e. the (P) spell costs 1 Hope and 2 Eye Awareness.

I'd like to know what people think, and whether they think these spells stray too far from the other material.

[Robin Smallburrow]

I personally prefer that 'Master of Shapes' belongs with Beasts & Birds type magic IMHO given what I have read. Illusions & Dreams are a different type of magic - witness Saruman as a master of illusion etc. but knew next to nothing about nature (and cared less).

Robin S.

[zedturtle]

I personally prefer that 'Master of Shapes' belongs with Beasts & Birds type magic IMHO given what I have read. Illusions & Dreams are a different type of magic - witness Saruman as a master of illusion etc. but knew next to nothing about nature (and cared less).

Robin S.

Hmmm. You may be right... I might move Master of Shaping to the Lore of Seeming; and then maybe move Other Guise here. It (Other Guise) is more about changing things.

I also realised I have a potential duplication with the expanded version of Dreams and Visions, so that might need to move.

I just have had a hard time figuring out what a master of colours and hues can do that doesn't come off as cheap or ridiculous.

[Mithrandir]

Im inclined to say Colours and Hues and the second ability (mind-speak not the title of Dreams and Visions or the ability used on Frodo) shouldnt be together either. Colours and hues is merely shaping the elements, a common theme in tolkiens magic. But Dreams and Visions seems to be a Eldar magic

'Soon Celeborn and Galadriel and their folk would turn eastward, and so pass by the Redhorn Gate and down the Dimrill Stair to the Silverlode and to their own country. They had journeyed thus far by the west-ways, for they had much to speak of with Elrond and with Gandalf, and here they lingered still in converse with their friends. Often long after the hobbits were wrapped in sleep they would sit together under the stars, recalling the ages that were gone and all their joys and labours in the world, or holding council, concerning the days to come . If any wanderer had chanced to pass, little would he have seen or heard, and it would have seemed to him only that he saw grey figures, carved in stone, memorials of forgotten things now lost in unpeopled lands. For they did not move or speak with mouth, looking from mind to mind; and only their shining eyes stirred and kindled as their thoughts went to and fro.' RoTK;Ch.VI;Many Partings

Seems to me Master of Shaping doesnt fit any either Lore of Seeming or Art of changes so maybe if you moved Dreams & vision and Master of Shaping into a new Art of the Eldar, as both abilities are canonically used by the most powerful Eldar of thier ages. Keep Changing Hues, and work up two more elemental shaping abilities?

I always understood Saruman as master of Many Colours, is the master of elements, knowing magic of all robes. Thus being the most knowledgable and thusly Master of the Istari.

[zedturtle]

Im inclined to say Colours and Hues and the second ability (mind-speak not the title of Dreams and Visions or the ability used on Frodo) shouldnt be together either. Colours and hues is merely shaping the elements, a common theme in tolkiens magic. But Dreams and Visions seems to be a Eldar magic

'Soon Celeborn and Galadriel and their folk would turn eastward, and so pass by the Redhorn Gate and down the Dimrill Stair to the Silverlode and to their own country. They had journeyed thus far by the west-ways, for they had much to speak of with Elrond and with Gandalf, and here they lingered still in converse with their friends. Often long after the hobbits were wrapped in sleep they would sit together under the stars, recalling the ages that were gone and all their joys and labours in the world, or holding council, concerning the days to come . If any wanderer had chanced to pass, little would he have seen or heard, and it would have seemed to him only that he saw grey figures, carved in stone, memorials of forgotten things now lost in unpeopled lands. For they did not move or speak with mouth, looking from mind to mind; and only their shining eyes stirred and kindled as their thoughts went to and fro.' RoTK;Ch.VI;Many Partings

I'm a bit leery of having an 'Eldar Magic' because of the tendency for debates about magic in Middle Earth to devolve into debates how only elves and men of elven (and Maiar) heritage are able to cast spells. To my mind, this is clearly not true... in the Hobbit, we have Beorn, the dwarves, and the men of Dale doing magical stuff. In the Lord of the Rings we are told a little about the mannish magic and a quite a bit more about Denethor's magical abilities.

I'm not saying you're wrong; this category has defaulted into something of a catch-all, and that's not working very well. I'm just leery of associating a magical art that strongly with a particular culture.

Seems to me Master of Shaping doesn't fit any either Lore of Seeming or Art of changes so maybe if you moved Dreams & vision and Master of Shaping into a new Art of the Eldar, as both abilities are canonically used by the most powerful Eldar of their ages. Keep Changing Hues, and work up two more elemental shaping abilities?

Huh. I kind of thought that it was the ultimate example of Changing something. More thought needed.

I always understood Saruman as master of Many Colours, is the master of elements, knowing magic of all robes. Thus being the most knowledgable and thusly Master of the Istari.

I don't think the Istari were colour-coded that way. Yes, Gandalf the White is Saruman-as-he-should-have-been, but that doesn't mean that Saruman of Many Colours is superior to Gandalf the Grey or Radagast the Brown; as Gandalf says 'he that breaks a thing to find out what it is has left the path of wisdom.' He certainly had different knowledge sets than the other Wizards, but I don't think he truly eclipsed the others, only looked down on them.

That said, I am still at a loss for what to do with this...

[Corvo]

Zed, I cannot comment on your whole opus (it's a while since I read it entirely), but I want to tell you that I like that last mechanic you put in use: if the enemy "challenges" (nice choice of words) your disguise, you have to take a Shadow point to cheat him.
Clever.

[zedturtle]

Zed, I cannot comment on your whole opus (it's a while since I read it entirely), but I want to tell you that I like that last mechanic you put in use: if the enemy "challenges" (nice choice of words) your disguise, you have to take a Shadow point to cheat him.
Clever.

Thanks! I was really happy with how that turned out. Now it's just a matter of fitting it in with everything else.

[zedturtle]

Okay, doing some finalising work on this (again):

Here's page 1 & 2, hopefully not igniting any firestorms (or fireballs):


and

[zedturtle]

And page three:

[Blubbo Baggins]

I'm not big on allowing players to use magic, but I really like how subtle your rules (spells) are and I think it really fits into the feel of TOR. Good work!

Edit: I mean, I'm not big on allowing players to play as "dwimmercrafters", but these spells seem to fit right along with the ones already in the game. And in that case, I think they ARE worth considering to use.