Dual wielding?

[Michebugio]

That just proves you earn Shadow for doing it.

Besides, we discovered that Dual Wielding is included in the TOR rules. Only that it takes a Hate Point to use, and heroes doesn't have Hate Points.
Poisons and Dual Wielding is a Thing of Evil.

Or it has a very strict prerequisite: you must be a Nazgul.

Well, look at this Special Ability which is included in TOR:

Savage Assault

Like a storm they broke upon the line of the men…

If the creature’s main form of attack has just hit producing
a great or extraordinary success, reduce its Hate point
score by 1 point to immediately roll a second attack on
the same target using the creature’s secondary weapon.


Now, take a look at the Witch-King's Special Abilities in p.83 of Rivendell:

Powers of the Lord of the Nazgûl
Black Breath Denizen of the Dark
Deadly Voice Thing of Terror
Dreadful Spells
(see right)
Words of Power
and Terror
Only as the Witch-king:
Commanding Voice Great Might
Dwimmerlaik Horrible Strength
Fear of Fire Savage Assault




And, of course, Morgul Knife is a secondary weapon for the Witch King.

Let me give Francesco a loud handclap.

EXACTLY! I noticed that too in correlation with the description I quoted!

[zedturtle]

I tend to stay out of these discussions ("If you have nothing good to say..."), but this does point the way to a Dual Wielding Mastery. Simply pay one point of Hope after a success strike with your weapon to make a second attack roll with another weapon. Each weapon must be used single-handed.

[Falenthal]

I tend to stay out of these discussions ("If you have nothing good to say..."), but this does point the way to a Dual Wielding Mastery. Simply pay one point of Hope after a success strike with your weapon to make a second attack roll with another weapon. Each weapon must be used single-handed.

I don't think Hope and Hate can be equalled.
Hate is also the way for creatures to get Weary, so it includes something of Encumbrance and Fatigue Threshold.
And Hate isn't necessary to add the attribute level when rolling favorite abilities, whereas Hope is.

It's tempting to say that Hate is the Hope of evil things, but it's not.

The fact that holding a second weapon increases the Fatigue and makes the character closer to being Weary, has some similarities with the effects that spending Hate provokes in the adversaries.

[Michebugio]

I don't think Hope and Hate can be equalled.
Hate is also the way for creatures to get Weary, so it includes something of Encumbrance and Fatigue Threshold.
And Hate isn't necessary to add the attribute level when rolling favorite abilities, whereas Hope is.

It's tempting to say that Hate is the Hope of evil things, but it's not.

The fact that holding a second weapon increases the Fatigue and makes the character closer to being Weary, has some similarities with the effects that spending Hate provokes in the adversaries.

I disagree, not on everything though. There are multiple cases where an NPC uses Hope to fuel monster-like abilities normally fueled by Hate: think about Gerold the Beorning from The Crossings of Celduin (Tales from the Wilderland, page 116), who uses Horrible Strength by spending Hope. Or Beorn himself, whose abilities are a replica of Hideous Toughness and Horrible Strength. The same abilities can also be used by a character who (*SPOILER*) has taken the curse of the Werewolf of Mirkwood, and of course characters use Hope.

So at least theoretically, Savage Assault can definitely be considered a Two-Weapon Fighting mechanic as zedturtle suggests, and it is clear that regarding the Witch-King its purpose is exactly that of replicating a sort of off-hand attack. At least I would use that (or Men of the Lake's Shield Fighting) as a rule basis if I were to allow my players the use of two weapons.

By the way, if Chapter Eleven of LOTR was titled "A knife in the off-hand", things could have been much different.

[zedturtle]

The fact that holding a second weapon increases the Fatigue and makes the character closer to being Weary, has some similarities with the effects that spending Hate provokes in the adversaries.

Well that alludes to some of the reasons that I like this idea... the hidden costs. You have to have two melee weapons and you have to have skills high enough in both of them in order to make successful attacks upon your adversary. So there is an opportunity cost in both Encumbrance and XP (to raise both weapon skills), as well as Hope (worst case scenario, you spend 3 Hope in one attack... 1 Hope for main weapon to hit, 1 Hope to attack with secondary weapon, 1 Hope to have secondary weapon hit).

[Falenthal]

@Michebugio: You're right in that Hope sometimes works as Hate. I'm only saying that sometimes it does not. Therefore, I'm not comfortable with saying "let's take this Adversaries' Special Ability and turn it into a Virtue, by changing Hate for Hope".

@zed: If holding two axes, or two short swords, or a sword and a short sword for a hero with (Swords),... the Encumbrance penalty is there, but not the extra XP needed to raise a second weapon skill.

When I gave a thought to Dual-Wielding, I considered two drawbacks for the style:
1) higher Encumbrance because you need to carry a second weapon
2) the skill of the primary weapon is decreased in relation to the Encumbrance of the secondary weapon. This way only masters of a certain weapon find it useful to fight two-weapon style (more or less is another mechanic to represent the acquisition of a Mastery). Also, fighting with a dagger off-hand is probably not as difficult as fighting with two swords.

No one in my campaign has shown any desire to fight with two weapons, so I haven't worried anymore about dual wielding rules.

[Michebugio]

@Michebugio: You're right in that Hope sometimes works as Hate. I'm only saying that sometimes it does not. Therefore, I'm not comfortable with saying "let's take this Adversaries' Special Ability and turn it into a Virtue, by changing Hate for Hope".

You may be not comfortable with it, but it's (almost) exactly what has been done with the High Elves' Reward Spear of the Last Alliance.

Just check it out and compare it with Savage Assault, then you tell me.

[Falenthal]

@Michebugio: You're right in that Hope sometimes works as Hate. I'm only saying that sometimes it does not. Therefore, I'm not comfortable with saying "let's take this Adversaries' Special Ability and turn it into a Virtue, by changing Hate for Hope".

You may be not comfortable with it, but it's (almost) exactly what has been done with the High Elves' Reward Spear of the Last Alliance.

Just check it out and compare it with Savage Assault, then you tell me.

Francesco is making me feel uncomfortable...

[Michebugio]

Francesco is making me feel uncomfortable...

He's always a step ahead of us

By the way, I think that I'm finally letting one of my players to use a dagger in his off-hand. At the price of a (still unnamed) Virtue, on a great or extraordinary success with his main weapon he can attempt an attack with the dagger against the same opponent by spending a point of Hope. I think I'm letting him do that only with daggers and short swords, however.

Case closed, for me

[zedturtle]

Francesco is making me feel uncomfortable...

He's always a step ahead of us

By the way, I think that I'm finally letting one of my players to use a dagger in his off-hand. At the price of a (still unnamed) Virtue, on a great or extraordinary success with his main weapon he can attempt an attack with the dagger against the same opponent by spending a point of Hope. I think I'm letting him do that only with daggers and short swords, however.

Case closed, for me

Might I suggest Determination, if you go for a Mastery (i.e. virtue not tied to any culture, which all have one word names)?