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Angelalex wrote:That's another thing I considered....

Changing Stinging Arrow to Stinging Point. "When using a piercing weapon..." instead of 'When using an arrow..."

And now it's useful for elven spearmen too.

Indeed, I use that rule too.

While I agree that Deadly Archery is not particularly sexy, I don't agree that it's not worth it within the context of the Mirkwood Elf culture.

It's a good low-level and mid-level virtue.

At low level, it allows you to reliable hit with those 2 skill dice when you really need to.
At mid level, it does the same, even when you are weary.

Ask any experienced player how often you'll see a "6" come up as a Tengwar but still miss because the rest of your dice whiffed. Having a +7-+9 bonus to hit can be a lifesaver. And at mid levels, (bow skill 3-4), it kicks in when you're weary and/or against high parry opponents. At high levels, it kicks in when you're weary AND fighitng high parry opponents. Unless I'm reading it wrong, it's not like it takes another hope point to apply...it's just a kicker to the hope point you were going to spend anyway.

Rocmistro wrote:Unless I'm reading it wrong, it's not like it takes another hope point to apply...it's just a kicker to the hope point you were going to spend anyway.

No, that's correct. You were spending the Hope to get the Attribute bonus anyway; this Virtue lets you add Heart as well as Body.

Rocmistro wrote:It's a good low-level and mid-level virtue.

At low level, it allows you to reliable hit with those 2 skill dice when you really need to.
At mid level, it does the same, even when you are weary.

I see your point but, honestly, would you take a benefit knowing that it will become obsolete? Players tend to invest and capitalize early on their character's abilities, so if you want a good archer, better investing Experience points to train the Bow skill as soon as possible and keep Hope points for other tasks (included improving attack rolls, when this is really needed). Also because of the following:

Rocmistro wrote:Ask any experienced player how often you'll see a "6" come up as a Tengwar but still miss because the rest of your dice whiffed. Having a +7-+9 bonus to hit can be a lifesaver.

I especially disagree with this one. If you see a "6" (or more than one) come up as a Tengwar but the rest of your dice whiffed, it generally means that you still went more or less close to the TN, since having "6s" in one or more of your Success dices is already a good score. Unless we're really talking about early stages of the game, but see above for that.
As for my experience, 90% of the times you just need a normal Attribute bonus to upgrade a failure with a "6" into a Great Success, and even more so if you can invoke a Favoured Attribute.
Adding ANOTHER bonus on top of these is generally useless, or anyway applicable to the very rare circumstances when a really, really bad shot is truly the difference between life and death: but a Virtue only for such few cases? No thanks.

Rocmistro wrote:I don't agree that it's not worth it within the context of the Mirkwood Elf culture.

That's the point. Looking at hobbits' ranged Virtues and Rewards, elves cry.

Michebugio wrote:

Rocmistro wrote:It's a good low-level and mid-level virtue.

At low level, it allows you to reliable hit with those 2 skill dice when you really need to.
At mid level, it does the same, even when you are weary.

I see your point but, honestly, would you take a benefit knowing that it will become obsolete? Players tend to invest and capitalize early on their character's abilities, so if you want a good archer, better investing Experience points to train the Bow skill as soon as possible and keep Hope points for other tasks (included improving attack rolls, when this is really needed). Also because of the following:

Rocmistro wrote:Ask any experienced player how often you'll see a "6" come up as a Tengwar but still miss because the rest of your dice whiffed. Having a +7-+9 bonus to hit can be a lifesaver.

I especially disagree with this one. If you see a "6" (or more than one) come up as a Tengwar but the rest of your dice whiffed, it generally means that you still went more or less close to the TN, since having "6s" in one or more of your Success dices is already a good score.
As for my experience, 90% of the times you just need a normal Attribute bonus to upgrade a failure with a "6" into a Great Success, and even more so if you can invoke a Favoured Attribute.
Adding ANOTHER bonus on top of these is generally useless, or anyway applicable to the very rare circumstances when a really, really badly missed shot is truly the difference between life and death: but a Virtue only for such few cases? No thanks.

Rocmistro wrote:I don't agree that it's not worth it within the context of the Mirkwood Elf culture.

That's the point. Looking at hobbits' ranged Virtues and Rewards, elves cry.

1. Obsolete...I don't think I'd use the term obsolete, it loses marginal utility at higher level, but certainly not obsolete. I also think part of the problem is that people don't consider some of the less used and discussed rules, for example attacking with a moderate or severe hindrance, or the new Rivendell powerful monster ability that allows for higher parry. When TN's go up, static bonuses start to look really tasty.

2. Disagreed. Your statement is true in Forward and Open stance. Rearward and Defensive stance, things get trickier with predicting outcomes and the margin of error. Start fighting against enemies with Parry of 5+ and things get not so certain. Add weary to the mix and its even more useful.

3. I think what needs fixing is the hobbit stuff, not the elf stuff. That being said, I think Fair Shot is better than bow of the North downs. Generally speaking, it will get you the numeric payout you would get from BofND, and you get the chance for a piercing blow.

I can definitely see a place for this virtue in a MW Elf build, is all I'm saying. In fact now it's got me thinking about a build I'd like to try out!

I agree with Mich on the math. If you've rolled Edge or any Tengwars you probably didn't miss by much. Sure, it can happen, but it's rare.

And an archer who starts with 2 dice is gonna have to get used to missing most of the time anyway.

Rocmistro wrote:2. Disagreed. Your statement is true in Forward and Open stance. Rearward and Defensive stance, things get trickier with predicting outcomes and the margin of error. Start fighting against enemies with Parry of 5+ and things get not so certain. Add weary to the mix and its even more useful.

The maths say otherwise: let's say you shoot an opponent with Parry 6 (it's a high value, given the average monster stats), for a TN of 18.

With 4 dices, your chance is 65%. If you add your Favoured Body score (let's say it's a fair 6), that chance increases to 95%.

This is practically like saying that 95% of the times, you can turn a failure against a high Parry monster into a hit, without using Deadly Archery.

Glorelendil wrote:I agree with Mich on the math. If you've rolled Edge or any Tengwars you probably didn't miss by much. Sure, it can happen, but it's rare.
And an archer who starts with 2 dice is gonna have to get used to missing most of the time anyway.

Thanks

Michebugio wrote:

Rocmistro wrote:2. Disagreed. Your statement is true in Forward and Open stance. Rearward and Defensive stance, things get trickier with predicting outcomes and the margin of error. Start fighting against enemies with Parry of 5+ and things get not so certain. Add weary to the mix and its even more useful.

The maths say otherwise: let's say you shoot an opponent with Parry 6 (it's a high value, given the average monster stats), for a TN of 18.

With 4 dices, your chance is 65%. If you add your Favoured Body score (let's say it's a fair 6), that chance increases to 95%.

This is practically like saying that 95% of the times, you can turn a failure against a high Parry monster into a hit, without using Deadly Archery.

Glorelendil wrote:I agree with Mich on the math. If you've rolled Edge or any Tengwars you probably didn't miss by much. Sure, it can happen, but it's rare.
And an archer who starts with 2 dice is gonna have to get used to missing most of the time anyway.

Thanks

Agreed 100%. Except for 2 things:
-nobody seems to ever include weary in their mathing.
-who says you're going to have 4 dice?

Aside from that, I just don't think you guys are thinking enough outside the box of how you can use this virtue to build a good character. Let's try this.

Mirkwood Elf, Noble Blood 4 / 4 / 6 (favored stats as you like, they don't really matter for this).
Endurance: 26
Hope: 12

Weapon Skills:
(Spears 2)
Sword 1
Dagger 1
Great Bow (oh? what's this??) 1 or 2 depending on what else you want to do with raising your common skills.

Valor 1
Wisdom 2 (deadly archery)

So starting off, I can hit just about anything with +8 to hit for 7 damage. Because I'm using body for a "dump stat" (not to be obtuse, but there you have it) I can pump up Hear to highest score, and since this is going to be a crit build, I won't need body)

Later levels: Wisdom 3 for Elf Magic and Valour 2 for Fell Great Bow. After that, Valour 3 for Woodland bow.

So my weapon skills can stay at spear 2/great bow (1 or 2) and I can be effective in combat for quite some time. Once I hit my stride of Wisdom/Valor 3 I can hit whenever I want for piercing blows at TN: 18. I can pretty much kill whatever I want, whenever I want, for 1 or (2 if my roll whiffs or I'm weary) hope points. The mirkwood virtues are all about picking your targets on your terms, which there is a lot to be said for. But of course you pay for that privilege.

Build me a hobbit that can range-kill whatever he wants, whenever he wants, on 16 XP. BotND is nice to start, but eventually it will get glossed over by the skill ranks that a hobbit must commit to Bow in order to get the tengwars he needs to get any kind of damage payoff, because he can't use a greatbow and his body is so low . My elf can go 2 ranks in great bow and be done for a long time. Fair shot is nice but between the feat die roll itself and the lower Injury rating, I just don't know that you can count on those piercing blows the same way.

Now I'll grant you that the Barding King's Man Fierce Shot is a nasty dude. Favored Body 9, Fierce Shot and 16 XP invested in Great Bow is going to be hitting for 18/27 damage pretty often. One shotting Orcs is good business, but, I think there's a place for both builds and they both do their thing well.

Rocmistro wrote:Agreed 100%. Except for 2 things:
-nobody seems to ever include weary in their mathing.
-who says you're going to have 4 dice?

Well, 4 dices is a reasonable amount for any decent fighter, and it is obtainable even within early stages of the game, considering you can start playing already with 3 dices if you wish.

And for the sake of completeness, the Weary chance is 40%, upgradable to 70%. But what if one of those dices is already a 6? This must be considered, since a player won't bother spending Hope only to get a normal success. And the chance to turn such a roll into a success becomes... 95%, again.

Plus: how many times the elf archer in your Fellowship gets Weary? With his high Wits, low Encumbrance and standing in the Rearguard, he will be hit by enemy arrows so few times that by the time his Endurance drops below his Fatigue the combat will be finished already.

That's why I was talking about rare circumstances: players tend to prefer reliable bonuses they get if not all the time, at least in a reasonable number of situations, and not slight bonuses "just in case I missed the shot of a lifetime".

Rocmistro wrote:So starting off, I can hit just about anything with +8 to hit for 7 damage. Because I'm using body for a "dump stat" (not to be obtuse, but there you have it) I can pump up Hear to highest score, and since this is going to be a crit build, I won't need body)

Later levels: Wisdom 3 for Elf Magic and Valour 2 for Fell Great Bow. After that, Valour 3 for Woodland bow.

So my weapon skills can stay at spear 2/great bow (1 or 2) and I can be effective in combat for quite some time. Once I hit my stride of Wisdom/Valor 3 I can hit whenever I want for piercing blows at TN: 18. I can pretty much kill whatever I want, whenever I want, for 1 or (2 if my roll whiffs or I'm weary) hope points.

You're not considering the maths:

Your chance to hit a reasonable early level TN of 16 with a Great Bow skill of 2 is 27%, so unless it's ok for you to miss 3 out of 4 times each combat you'll burn through your Hope very quickly to be "effective". And you have a total score of 12 Hope (best case scenario for an elf), how many of them are you really planning to spend to improve rolls in any given fight, rather than avoiding Wounds or worse attacks?

I really don't see the point of having a Fell Bow which I use with a flimsy skill of 2 dices and for which I need to spend 1 or 2 Hope points each time... while I can simply stay at Wis 1, Valour 2 (Fell Bow) and use those 16 Experience points to train my Bow skill to 4 and attempt Called Shots on every roll with a more than reasonable chance to succeed (at TN 16, it's 47%), without spending a single point of Hope (OR, at worst, spending 1 to turn a failure into a success 95% of the times).

Then there are the comparisons: the Hobbit with Fair Shot may not be so terribly overpowered, but as we said the Bow of the North Downs is practically a Deadly Archery on steroids without any Hope cost. And the Barding dude with Fierce Shot is definitely the orc/goblin one-shot-one-kill master.

Since it's no mistery that, in our imagination, THE BEST FANTASY ARCHER is the ELF, and I dare you to challenge this statement, it's clearly not the case in terms of game mechanics and I think that a lot of TOR players would agree on that.

FWIW, I just want to add that I am actually kind of thankful that the Mirkwood Elves aren't overpowered. We all know how obnoxiously powerful Elves can be, at least in some game systems. In my Decipher CODA campaign, we had a Noldor Elf magician who could pretty much walk on water. As an Elf he hardly needed to sleep, could literally walk on surfaces like snow, and had a whole host of other incredible abilities. In Decipher's Star Trek game, my PC was a Vulcan, and with the way he could do so many amazing things (that the others could not), it didn't take long before the others began referring to Vulcans as the "Space Elves".

Conversely, the Mirkwood Elves in TOR are refreshingly balanced. They can still do some really cool things (like with Wood Elf Magic), but things like their low Hope scores, not to mention the fact that they now draw Eye Awareness (when they use Wood Elf Magic), really balances things out. I'm loving that they still capture the feel of Elves without outclassing and out performing all the other cultures.

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