Deadly Archery

[Deadmanwalking]

Okay, to measure how long it takes an Elf as compared to a Barding by the current rules to kill the second and later foes, I'm turning off Opening Volleys for everyone and ditching the Woodland Bow.

Barding Sample (30 XP)
Body: 5(8), Heart: 5(5)
Virtues & Rewards: Fierce_shot, Dalish_longbow
Hacks:
Weapon: Fell, Grievous Great Bow: 4
Stance: Defensive/Rearward
vs. Attercop
Average Rounds: 1.74
Average Hope: 0.22
vs. Black Uruk
Average Rounds: 2.37
Average Hope: 0.49
vs. Great Orc
Average Rounds: 11.18
Average Hope: 2.33

Elf Sample (20 XP)
Body: 5(8), Heart: 4(4)
Virtues & Rewards: Deadly_archery
Hacks:
Weapon: Fell, Grievous Bow: 4
Stance: Defensive/Rearward
vs. Attercop
Average Rounds: 1.74
Average Hope: 0.23
vs. Black Uruk
Average Rounds: 2.92
Average Hope: 0.65
vs. Great Orc
Average Rounds: 17.45
Average Hope: 3.87

We can then do some simple addition, and determine (roughly) a comparison on two or three foes. Here are the 'first enemy dead' calculations involving all opening volleys, for convenience:

Barding Sample (30 XP)
Body: 5(8), Heart: 5(5)
Virtues & Rewards: Fierce_shot, Dalish_longbow
Hacks:
Weapon: Fell, Grievous Great Bow: 4
Stance: Defensive/Rearward
vs. Attercop
Average Rounds: 0.75
Average Hope: 0.23
vs. Black Uruk
Average Rounds: 1.35
Average Hope: 0.49
vs. Great Orc
Average Rounds: 10.15
Average Hope: 2.31

Elf Sample (30 XP)
Body: 5(8), Heart: 4(4)
Virtues & Rewards: Deadly_archery, Woodland_bow
Hacks:
Weapon: Fell, Grievous Bow: 4
Stance: Defensive/Rearward
vs. Attercop
Average Rounds: 0.31 (-59% vs. no Woodland Bow)
Average Hope: 0.24
vs. Black Uruk
Average Rounds: 1.09 (-44% vs. no Woodland Bow)
Average Hope: 0.65
vs. Great Orc
Average Rounds: 15.63 (-6% vs. no Woodland Bow)
Average Hope: 3.93

So, here's the math:

Killing 3 Attercops:

Elf: 3.79 rounds, .7 Hope
Barding: 4.12 rounds, .67 Hope

Killing 3 Black Uruks:

Elf: 6.93 rounds, 1.95 Hope
Barding: 6.09 rounds, 1.47 Hope

And that math gets worse for the elf the more enemies we're talking about (contrariwise, the math with 2 enemies favors the Elf more).

Well, that confirms my most recent idea. Elves really are right on par with Bardings and other archers at minion sweeping...but no better beyond the first kill or so. And are notably worse vs. large targets like a Great Orc. My above suggestion fixes the latter problem without wrecking combat balance with the latter (especially with the edit I just added).

What's everyone think of the idea?

[Glorelendil]

I will (eventually) modify the app to let you pick multiple opponents. That should help.

[zedturtle]

Deadly Archery
...their small knives... would have been of no use against the arrows of the Elves that could hit a bird’s eye in the dark.

Most members of your kin possess a natural talent for hitting the mark when using their bows. You seem to
possess that quality yourself, as your arrows find their target with uncanny precision.

When making an attack roll using a bow, the difficulty of your attack is unaffected by any complications or hindrances, like shooting at medium or long range, in the darkness, or aiming at a very small target.

Additionally, when you score a piercing blow against a foe with four or more Protection dice or who possesses the Great Size ability, your foe must subtract one die from their Protection roll, as you successfully aim through the tiny chinks in even the best armor or weak points in even the thickest hide.

Note: I considered having it kick in at 3 dice, but that seems a little too widely applicable. 4 dice is decently rare, but always nice when it comes up. And then there's the ignoring penalties bit...

EDIT: Edited to be a bit better, since it now kicks in on Great Size as well.

That seems a little too fiddly to me. I would just invoke the -d6 to Protection when the Elf spends a point of Hope, that way he has to really want it (which will be more likely when facing tougher opponents).

[Glorelendil]

That seems a little too fiddly to me. I would just invoke the -d6 to Protection when the Elf spends a point of Hope, that way he has to really want it (which will be more likely when facing tougher opponents).

Or add Heart to Injury!

Wait...that was 30 pages ago...

[zedturtle]

That seems a little too fiddly to me. I would just invoke the -d6 to Protection when the Elf spends a point of Hope, that way he has to really want it (which will be more likely when facing tougher opponents).

Or add Heart to Injury!

Wait...that was 30 pages ago...

I sometimes worry that we might have an agitator in our midst, secretly working to get this thread to some magical number of pages, for his (or her) own dark designs...

[Angelalex242]

Take 3 Shadow for a conspiracy theory

One thing -d6 protection does that heart to injury does not is let Envoy of the King be a good archer.

[Glorelendil]

Take 3 Shadow for a conspiracy theory

One thing -d6 protection does that heart to injury does not is let Envoy of the King be a good archer.

Yeah but I like trade-offs. You want to be a great archer and have high parry?

[Angelalex242]

Noble blood adds one to parry over musical legacy and loses 1 from body in exchange. But then, elves aren't about end damage anyway... (5/4/5) vs. (4/4/6)

So the tradeoff's not as big as it looks.

Also, having a heart of 2 has issues of its own whenever you need to roll valor or wisdom...

[Deadmanwalking]

That seems a little too fiddly to me. I would just invoke the -d6 to Protection when the Elf spends a point of Hope, that way he has to really want it (which will be more likely when facing tougher opponents).

That wouldn't actually improve them all that much as compared to Bardings or Woodmen vs. stuff like a Great Orc, though. Heck, even the version I'm suggesting doesn't quite get them there. It'd be a little better vs. lesser foes...but they don't need it for those.

And I don't feel like it's all that fiddly. Frankly, no more so than Serpent's Scimitar. At least not in any meaningful sense.

[Angelalex242]

Also, every +injury existing reward in the game doesn't operate on hope, it operates on G Runes.

See: Bitter Spear, Dalish Longbow, Splitting Axe.

The last of which, Splitting Axe, is the only existing reward that does a -1d6 protection roll, and it does so on G Runes only. Dalish is roll feat die twice and take the worst, Bitter is a flat +4, Axe of Az inflicts weary only on a G Rune, only against weak or medium opponents.

Note that splitting axe can be a great axe and inflicts that -1d6 on, potentially, a 22 Injury rating. If you get hit with that, you're not getting up again.

As such, if it's not a flat, it should be G rune like everything else is.