Deadly Archery
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Re: Deadly Archery
Note that you can fake that in my sim by picking Bow for a weapon and Axe of Azanulbizar as a reward. It will apply th mechanic to whatever weapon you have.
The Munchkin Formerly Known as Elfcrusher
Journey Computer | Combat Simulator | Bestiary | Weapon Calculator
Journey Computer | Combat Simulator | Bestiary | Weapon Calculator
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Re: Deadly Archery
Axe of Az applies weary. It's splitting axe that provides -1d6 protection on a G rune.
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Re: Deadly Archery
Yes that is what I meant.
The Munchkin Formerly Known as Elfcrusher
Journey Computer | Combat Simulator | Bestiary | Weapon Calculator
Journey Computer | Combat Simulator | Bestiary | Weapon Calculator
Re: Deadly Archery
So...45 pages later.
What meaningful agreeable information have you guys gleaned from all this?
I dropped out of the equation a long time ago, but I'm interested to see what you guys offer up as your final perfect design for Deadly Archery.![Very Happy :D](./images/smilies/icon_e_biggrin.gif)
What meaningful agreeable information have you guys gleaned from all this?
I dropped out of the equation a long time ago, but I'm interested to see what you guys offer up as your final perfect design for Deadly Archery.
![Very Happy :D](./images/smilies/icon_e_biggrin.gif)
Rignuth: Barding Wordweaver Wanderer in Southron Loremaster's game.
Amroth Ol'Hir: High Elf Vengeful Kin Slayer in Zedturtle's game.
Jakk O'Malli: Dwarven Orator Treasure-Hunter in Hermes Serpent's game.
Amroth Ol'Hir: High Elf Vengeful Kin Slayer in Zedturtle's game.
Jakk O'Malli: Dwarven Orator Treasure-Hunter in Hermes Serpent's game.
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Re: Deadly Archery
There will never be consensus.Rocmistro wrote:So...45 pages later.
What meaningful agreeable information have you guys gleaned from all this?
I dropped out of the equation a long time ago, but I'm interested to see what you guys offer up as your final perfect design for Deadly Archery.
The Munchkin Formerly Known as Elfcrusher
Journey Computer | Combat Simulator | Bestiary | Weapon Calculator
Journey Computer | Combat Simulator | Bestiary | Weapon Calculator
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Re: Deadly Archery
Well, I'd like to do the math on the Splitting Axe suggestion, but I think I've run into a programming glitch. Every time I add Splitting Axe to a character (including a Beorning with a Greataxe) it doesn't change the probabilities at all (well, okay, some of them go up or down 1-3% unpredictably...the same as you get re-doing it with no changes). Though, actually, the same seems to be happening with Dalish Longbow. Huh. Either those Rewards are bad choices, or the program is off. Which, now that I notice it, is probably skewing our calculations of how good Bardings are by quite a lot.
Bitter Spear works fine, though. So I'll test the 'on a G rune, add your Heart to Injury' version:
Elf Sample (42 XP)
Body: 5(8), Heart: 4(4)
Virtues & Rewards: Bitter_spear, Woodland_bow
Hacks:
Weapon: Fell, Grievous Bow: 4
Stance: Defensive/Rearward
vs. Attercop
Average Rounds: 0.3 (0% vs. the official version)
Average Hope: 0.22
vs. Black Uruk
Average Rounds: 1.11 (-2% vs. the official version)
Average Hope: 0.59
vs. Great Orc
Average Rounds: 13.78 (-9% vs. the official version)
Average Hope: 3.24
So...that helps a bit, but IMO not enough vs. Great Orcs and other big threats. The flat addition vs. all foes is likewise too good (at least combined with Woodland Bow). A persistent bonus explicitly against Great Orcs and their ilk is very much what the Elven archer build seems to need.
Now, let's check a Barding with a Bitter spear (which is better than a Dalish Longbow...but not by all that much) to see if Dalish Longbow is glitching and not doing anything:
Barding Sample (30 XP)
Body: 5(8), Heart: 5(5)
Virtues & Rewards: Fierce_shot, Bitter_spear
Hacks:
Weapon: Fell, Grievous Great Bow: 4
Stance: Defensive/Rearward
vs. Attercop
Average Rounds: 0.71 (1% vs. Dalish Longbow version)
Average Hope: 0.22
vs. Black Uruk
Average Rounds: 1.39 (-1% vs. Dalish Longbow version)
Average Hope: 0.49
vs. Great Orc
Average Rounds: 9.16 (-12% vs. Dalish Longbow version)
Average Hope: 2.07
Okay, yeah, Dalish Longbow is doing nothing in this program. Rolling the Feat die twice and taking the worst is not identical to not doing so, nor is it 12% worse than +4 Injury (given that it averages at +2.6 extra injury or something like that). The same for Splitting Axe.
Bitter Spear works fine, though. So I'll test the 'on a G rune, add your Heart to Injury' version:
Elf Sample (42 XP)
Body: 5(8), Heart: 4(4)
Virtues & Rewards: Bitter_spear, Woodland_bow
Hacks:
Weapon: Fell, Grievous Bow: 4
Stance: Defensive/Rearward
vs. Attercop
Average Rounds: 0.3 (0% vs. the official version)
Average Hope: 0.22
vs. Black Uruk
Average Rounds: 1.11 (-2% vs. the official version)
Average Hope: 0.59
vs. Great Orc
Average Rounds: 13.78 (-9% vs. the official version)
Average Hope: 3.24
So...that helps a bit, but IMO not enough vs. Great Orcs and other big threats. The flat addition vs. all foes is likewise too good (at least combined with Woodland Bow). A persistent bonus explicitly against Great Orcs and their ilk is very much what the Elven archer build seems to need.
Now, let's check a Barding with a Bitter spear (which is better than a Dalish Longbow...but not by all that much) to see if Dalish Longbow is glitching and not doing anything:
Barding Sample (30 XP)
Body: 5(8), Heart: 5(5)
Virtues & Rewards: Fierce_shot, Bitter_spear
Hacks:
Weapon: Fell, Grievous Great Bow: 4
Stance: Defensive/Rearward
vs. Attercop
Average Rounds: 0.71 (1% vs. Dalish Longbow version)
Average Hope: 0.22
vs. Black Uruk
Average Rounds: 1.39 (-1% vs. Dalish Longbow version)
Average Hope: 0.49
vs. Great Orc
Average Rounds: 9.16 (-12% vs. Dalish Longbow version)
Average Hope: 2.07
Okay, yeah, Dalish Longbow is doing nothing in this program. Rolling the Feat die twice and taking the worst is not identical to not doing so, nor is it 12% worse than +4 Injury (given that it averages at +2.6 extra injury or something like that). The same for Splitting Axe.
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Re: Deadly Archery
This is probably true.Glorelendil wrote:There will never be consensus.Rocmistro wrote:So...45 pages later.
What meaningful agreeable information have you guys gleaned from all this?
I dropped out of the equation a long time ago, but I'm interested to see what you guys offer up as your final perfect design for Deadly Archery.
Short version of what the math says:
Woodland Bow is great, and sufficient to keep them on par with Bardings and others vs. relatively low level foes...but vs. large foes like a Great Orc, they wind up way behind (even if using Stinging Arrow...though less so then if willing to spend Hope like water).
Opinions on what to do about this differ.
Last edited by Deadmanwalking on Tue Mar 10, 2015 3:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Re: Deadly Archery
I've read most of this thread, but I must admit that I've just skimmed the last 10 pages or so, and I was wondering the same!Rocmistro wrote:So...45 pages later.
What meaningful agreeable information have you guys gleaned from all this?
I dropped out of the equation a long time ago, but I'm interested to see what you guys offer up as your final perfect design for Deadly Archery.
![Laughing :lol:](./images/smilies/icon_lol.gif)
I feel Deadly Archery is a bit underpowered too. My own idea is to keep it simple, and just eliminate the Hope requirement, and also to regularise it to a +3 bonus rather than dependent on heart (otherwise it just tempts players to take a high Heart background!). I might also make it reduce penalties for things like darkness etc. by one step but I'm not sure if that would be overkill.
Aiya Eärendil Elenion Ancalima!
... but you can call me Mark.
... but you can call me Mark.
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Re: Deadly Archery
Woodland bow is great, and sufficient to let them snipe single low level targets, but it loses power quickly against groups.
It's best for 'hey elf, snipe that guard before he raises the alarm.'
It isn't that useful with the 12 black uruks attack the party. The elf may kill the first one quickly, but...
I remain in favor of either +heart to injury or -1d6 protection.
An extra +4 to hit while spending hope only just isn't that useful.
It's best for 'hey elf, snipe that guard before he raises the alarm.'
It isn't that useful with the 12 black uruks attack the party. The elf may kill the first one quickly, but...
I remain in favor of either +heart to injury or -1d6 protection.
An extra +4 to hit while spending hope only just isn't that useful.
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Re: Deadly Archery
Well, math-ing that out, it's a pretty big boost against lesser targets, but a very minimal one (3% or so) vs. the Great Orc, and meaningless if doing Called Shots (which you should be if aiming to kill a Great Orc). So...it's no help at all vs. what they actually need help on.Earendil wrote:I've read most of this thread, but I must admit that I've just skimmed the last 10 pages or so, and I was wondering the same!Rocmistro wrote:So...45 pages later.
What meaningful agreeable information have you guys gleaned from all this?
I dropped out of the equation a long time ago, but I'm interested to see what you guys offer up as your final perfect design for Deadly Archery.![]()
I feel Deadly Archery is a bit underpowered too. My own idea is to keep it simple, and just eliminate the Hope requirement, and also to regularise it to a +3 bonus rather than dependent on heart (otherwise it just tempts players to take a high Heart background!). I might also make it reduce penalties for things like darkness etc. by one step but I'm not sure if that would be overkill.
12 Black Uruks is not a common foe in most games. And even if it is, that's maybe four for the Elf to take out themselves, and they're actually competitive (if not quite on par) with the Barding even at that number.Angelalex242 wrote:Woodland bow is great, and sufficient to let them snipe single low level targets, but it loses power quickly against groups.
It's best for 'hey elf, snipe that guard before he raises the alarm.'
It isn't that useful with the 12 black uruks attack the party. The elf may kill the first one quickly, but...
No, they need help against large foes, not minions, even tough minions like Black Uruks.
We've pretty thoroughly proven with math that this is serious overkill, combining with Wodland Bow to make Elves just miles better than Bardings at large portions of the game.Angelalex242 wrote:I remain in favor of either +heart to injury or -1d6 protection.
This is true, and why i'm still all for changing it.Angelalex242 wrote:An extra +4 to hit while spending hope only just isn't that useful.
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