Deadly Archery

[Glorelendil]

Ok, I'm going to run a Dalish archer with Body of 6(9) with Great Bow: 4, and a Fell Dalish Longbow making Called Shots every round, spending Hope when necessary to make it hit (assuming at least one Tengwar is rolled.)

I'll also run some variant of a Mirkwood Elf using a Fell regular Bow, and either making Called Shots or spending Hope on Stinging Arrow only.

P.S. But tell me which adversary you want me to use.

[Angelalex242]

Use Envoy of the King, favored body 9. That'll get the point across.

[Glorelendil]

Use Envoy of the King, favored body 9. That'll get the point across.

Of course.

[Michebugio]

This is how it works.

At low levels (ie, Great Bow skill 2). He fires when opportunities present them self:

1. if his shot misses and produced no edge, tengwars, or cannot drop a foe with said shot, he does not spend any hope. (pretty much the same as EVERY OTHER ARCHER in the game with a ranged skill of 2.)

2. if his shot misses with edge, or he gets sufficient tengwars (his judgment), then he adds a point of hope to make it hit (ie, pretty much the same as EVERY OTHER ARCHER in the game with a ranged skill of 2.*)

3. if he has to absolutely make a critical shot, because the dramatic climax of the combat encounter demands it, and his shot misses and produces no edge, then he adds 2 points of hope to hit with a piercing blow.* (ie, a privilege he enjoys, unlike ANY OTHER archer in the game.)

* The Deadly Archery virtue gives him the extra marginal bonus to hit in scenarios 2 and 3 that he otherwise might not have...in effect it "extends" his failure to success conversion range. It provides opportunity benefit in scenario 2 and certainty benefit in scenario 3, and as his Great Bow skill matures, it broadens the circumstances under which he gets to deploy his piercing blows.

At no point have I ever suggested or reasoned as a strength of the build that the character is missing shots every round, and thus spending double hope points, every round, in order to succeed on dramatically insignificant shots.

Oh but wait, you're cheating here! Because to get this, you had to spend at least 16 Experience points between Wisdom and Great Bow! Meanwhile, EVERY OTHER ARCHER won't stay at Bow 2! In fact, they'll use those 16 Experience points to get Bow 4. And THEIR options are:

1. if his shot misses and produced no edge, tengwars, or cannot drop a foe with said shot, they won't spend Hope. BUT this will happen WAY LESS TIMES than in your build, and you know why? Because they roll 4 dices, while your roll 2.

2. if his shot misses with edge, or he gets sufficient tengwars (his judgment), then he adds a point of hope to make it hit. But similarly to 1., this will happen A LOT MORE than in your build, and you know why? Because they roll 4 dices, while you roll 2. And invoking Favoured Body means +9, which is also better than in your build.

3. if he has to absolutely make a critical shot, because the dramatic climax of the combat encounter demands it, HE WILL ATTEMPT A CALLED SHOT. If his shot misses, THEN IT'S ONLY HERE THAT "EVERY OTHER ARCHER" HAS LESS OPTIONS THAN YOU.

But at what price? The price that, if you're not spending Hope, YOU'RE MISSING MUCH, MUCH MORE THAN EVERY OTHER ARCHER.

Let's break it down:

You guys: Envoy of King 6(9)/2/6 (is this essentially what you are suggesting?)
Endurance: 24
Hope: 10

Bow: 4 (10 XP), I'll assume you put the 6 starting experience to get Bow to 3 at character creation. or we can do it the other way if you want, which gives a more robust assortment of Common skills.
Damage: 5/11/17 edge: 10, injury: 16

Valor: 2 Keen +2 (or did you want something else?)
Wisdom: 2 (4xp) Stinging Arrow.

Me: Noble Blood 4(5)/4/6
Endurance: 26
Hope: 12

Great Bow: 3 (6 XP). and I'm putting the same 6 starting experience to get Great Bow 2 at character creation.
Damage: 7/11/15 edge: 10, injury: 18

Valor: 2 Keen
Wisdom: 3 (10 XP) Deadly Archery, Stinging Arrow

So what are the practical differences here Mich/Glor? My guy has:
-more endurance
-more hope
-a better chance of converting piercing blow to kills
-higher resistance to corruption
-better melee combat skills
-longer range of weapon delivery (not huge, but neither is it insignificant)

Your guy has:
-a better base chance to hit (4 dice vs. 3)
-better extraordinary success damage
-greater likelihood to produce great and extraordinary successes
-a slightly better chance of converting a failure to hit (+9 vs. +8)

So with comparing these 2 builds, are you really going to tell me that Deadly Archery sucks (or rather, that it needs to be buffed, which is what the OP suggested. Your build does what it does better (endurance damage delivery), and mine does what it does better (converts piercing blows to kills). I get some marginal other befits with mine, and you get none with yours.

It really doesn't make sense to take into account thousands of other variables!

I tell you what: let's consider THE SAME BACKGROUNDS, the only thing that changes is how the Experience is spent and Favoured Body. And you know what? Let's also use the background more favourable to your build!

So, you:
Noble Blood 4(5)/4/6
Great Bow: 3 (6 XP).
Damage: 7/11/15 edge: 10, injury: 18
Valor: 2 Keen
Wisdom: 3 (10 XP) Deadly Archery, Stinging Arrow
When invoking Body: +8

Me:
Noble Blood 4(7)/4/6
Bow: 4 (10 XP)
Damage: 5/9/13 edge: 10, injury 16
Valor: 2 Keen
Wisdom: 2 (4 XP) Stinging Arrow
2 XP left
When invoking Body: +7


You have:
+2 Damage, +2 Injury

I have:
-2 Encumbrance
+1 Dice in Bow, meaning also more Damage (more chances to roll a Tengwar), and +3 to hit (average result with 1 more dice), which becomes a net +2 when spending Hope since you add 1 point more when invoking Body (see above)
2 XP left (to max Elf Magic, for example)


AND THIS IS THE MOST FAVOURABLE CASE FOR YOU.


So I'm telling you yes, Deadly Archery kinda sucks.

[Rocmistro]

And then you realize the envoy of the king elf with a favored body of 8 or 9 yawns loudly at deadly archery and there's no way to make it useful for him.

That's why I kinda wanted deadly archery to work more like Fair Shot. Then any brand of elf gets a lot out of it.

I've already voiced many times that Envoy with 8/9 would not use deadly archery.

Alex are you suggesting that every virtue and reward in a culture's package has to always be mint at all times in order for it to be useful/balanced? If there is anything I'll assert in all of this, it's that that is not the measuring stick of quality.

[Glorelendil]

And then you realize the envoy of the king elf with a favored body of 8 or 9 yawns loudly at deadly archery and there's no way to make it useful for him.

That's why I kinda wanted deadly archery to work more like Fair Shot. Then any brand of elf gets a lot out of it.

I've already voiced many times that Envoy with 8/9 would not use deadly archery.

Alex are you suggesting that every virtue and reward in a culture's package has to always be mint at all times in order for it to be useful/balanced? If there is anything I'll assert in all of this, it's that that is not the measuring stick of quality.

I don't think he is, but saying that a virtue is useful for bringing one Background to parity with other Backgrounds isn't really a recommendation for it being a "good" virtue.

[Deadmanwalking]

On the general subject:

I think people arguing Deadly Archery is good need to stop using Stinging Arrow in their arguments. Stinging Arrow is potentially quite nice (if pricey)...but one Virtue being good does not make another good and Deadly Archery sans other Virtues is, y'know, not good. Yes, the ability to auto-pierce regardless of your roll is pretty nice, even for 2 Hope...but you can do that without bothering to invest in Deadly Archery

I mean, as mentioned, even the person Deadly Archery is best for (Body 4, Favored Body 5, Heart 4) only goes from +5 to +9 on a Hope expenditure...and you can already have an elf with +9 via a different background. So...you're spending a Virtue to trade +2 Damage (in both melee and ranged) for +2 Endurance and +2 Hope (and +2 to damage recovered when resting and unwounded). A trade of four Virtues for two or three Virtues. So...you're spending a Virtue to trade 4 Virtues for 3 Virtues, and winding up down a net of two Virtues. That's a terrible trade by any reasonable metric. Even assuming Body 4, Favored Body 7, for a +11 on a Hope expenditure (and thus an actual advantage over the Body 6 guy)...that's not a very good trade. I sure wouldn't spend two Virtues on getting a +2 to my Favored Body on bow attacks only.

On the specific discussion I was having regarding my proposed fix.

Interesting! Are you taking into account the difference between a Bow and a Great Bow? Because Woodmen are proficient with Great Bows and can have a Shepherd's Great Bow, while Elves are (by my version of this) restricted to ordinary bows.

No, I'm making a comparison between two Bows of course ("...and same conditions in all other respects"), since I'm taking for granted that the greater Damage of a Great Bow is compensated by its higher Encumbrance!

Good to know.

I'd argue strongly that +2 each Damage and Injury is way better than -2 Encumbrance (and the existence of Fell, Grievous, and Cunning Make supports this position...2 Reward-equivalents in exchange for one). For melee weapons, the bonuses are often larger between the 'normal' and 'great' versions (+4 Damage, +2 Injury)...but those come at the opportunity cost of losing out on a shield (and +2 to +3 Parry), making the distinction much less clear-cut.

In other words, I feel like my version of Deadly Archery is partially making up for Elves of Mirkwood getting stuck with a sub-par weapon. And based on your analysis and my own eye-balling, will be using it in future. Assuming I ever run TOR, anyway.

[Michebugio]

P.S. But tell me which adversary you want me to use.

A Black Uruk to say the least. Spending 2 Hope points for anything less is not what any reasonable player would do.

I think people arguing Deadly Archery is good need to stop using Stinging Arrow in their arguments. Stinging Arrow is potentially quite nice (if pricey)...but one Virtue being good does not make another good and Deadly Archery sans other Virtues is, y'know, not good. Yes, the ability to auto-pierce regardless of your roll is pretty nice, even for 2 Hope...but you can do that without bothering to invest in Deadly Archery [...]

For the same reason, we should stop adding variables. The best comparison is when the difference is only swapping Deadly Archery with something else, keeping everything else the same.

Otherwise we'll start saying things like "yeah but he has more Endurance", "you're right but his Parry is higher", "no but he heals faster albeit he deals less damage" etc. and we'll dive into neverending marshes of arguments that won't lead anywhere.

In the end, since the cost is theoretically he same, the choice simply is: to raise Wisdom and take Deadly Archery, or to raise Weapon skill to take 1 more dice?
Even in the most favourable case for the application of Deadly Archery, I believe that 9 players out of 10 will choose the reliability of 1 more dice, instead of a slight and circumstantial bonus happening from time to time.

[Rocmistro]

Then you guys must also agree that the Expertise mastery sucks even more-so than Deadly Archery, since it caps out max at +3 whereas Deadly Archery can provide +4. In all other respects, it's the same mechanical function with slightly different wording.

Glor:
Without quoting you; if anything it is Fierce shot we needs an adjustment in the other direction.

Mich:
In part A, i wasn't cheating, i was simply comparing the gross effect of having 2 archers with skill 2 deciding how to spend their hope points. I wasn't attempting to compare a "build" yet (that happened later on, which you accurately quoted).

Without quoting you; are you seriously telling me that +2 damage and (more importantly) +2 injury does not have a place in the comparison against 1 additional skill die?

But beyond, that, please one of you answer my question: Would you also declare that "Mastery: Expertise" sucks, and moreso than Deadly Archery? Because if you're going to claim one you must claim the other.

[Glorelendil]

Ok, here's round one: Roc's build versus a Cave Troll. If Hope could be spent to turn a miss into a hit, it gets spent. And then if the hit is not a Pierce, Hope is also spent for Stinging Arrow. (I assume "Keen" was a typo in your build and you meant Fell.) 100,000 iterations.

Average Rounds to Kill: 6.92
Average Hope Spent per Kill: 9.83

I'm not outputting average damage, but somehow that should be a factor, so I track the troll's health and start rolling his Protection as Weary once health reaches zero.

Here's the source code (please look for bugs if you're a programmer):

Code: Select all

def roctest
  # Adversary: Cave Troll
  adv_parry = 5
  adv_armor = 3
  adv_armor_bonus = 7
  adv_endurance = 76
  
  hero_skill = 2
  hero_damage_bonus = 4
  hero_base_damage = 7
  hero_attribute_bonus = 8
  hero_edge = 10
  hero_injury = 18
  volley = false
  
  dice = Dice.new
  
  tn = 12 + adv_parry
  hope_spent = 0
  total_rounds = 0
  iterations = 100000
  
  iterations.times do |i|
    rounds = ( volley ? 0 : -1 )
    hp = adv_endurance
    dead = false
    
    while !dead
      rounds += 1
#      puts "Round: #{rounds}"
      dice.roll(hero_skill)
      hit = dice.test tn

      if !hit && tn - dice.total <= hero_attribute_bonus
        hit = true
        hope_spent += 1
      end
    
      if hit
        hp -= hero_base_damage + (dice.tengwars * hero_damage_bonus)
      
        pierce = dice.feat >= hero_edge
        if !pierce
          pierce = true
          hope_spent += 1
        end
      
        if pierce
          dice.roll adv_armor, hp <= 0, adv_armor_bonus, 0
#          puts "Protection Roll: #{dice.total}"
          if !dice.test hero_injury
            dead = true
          end
        end
      end
    end
    total_rounds += rounds
    
  end
  puts "average rounds: #{(total_rounds * 1.0 / iterations).round 2}"
  puts "average hope spent: #{(hope_spent * 1.0 / iterations).round 2}"
end

I'll try the Black Uruk next. (Wait...really? They don't have Great Size and only 20 Endurance.)

P.S. Yes, Expertise sucks.

EDIT: Black Uruks
Average Rounds to Kill: 1.56
Average Hope Spent per Kill: 2.41

Now I'll compare to some other builds.