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Deadmanwalking wrote:Nevertheless, I do think I need to come up with a clearer wording there, I just think the concept I have in mind is clear enough.

You need to explain your model better because it is unclear.

Deadmanwalking wrote:As Glorelendil notes, this kind of thing is probably better left to mathematical analysis than playtesting. It's different when you have a game company and can have hundreds of playtesters, but one or two playtesters are of...skewed usefulness in determining something like this.

Thank you for not allowing me to play The One Ring by the gracious refusal you disdainfully uttered from your position of self-appointed magnanimity.

Deadmanwalking wrote:That's going to be most of the time, and the Injury increase is weird (since it means you're better at killing people with shields by quite a bit), and too powerful since it applies most of the time.

A person who is fighting with a bigger shield is at a bigger disadvantage when he can't use it to protect her or himself.

Cheers,

Chris.

Glorelendil wrote:I think maybe you are just looking for something far more powerful than I am. I'm trying to keep it "average", and especially trying to avoid making it a must-have option. Archers should feel like the can take The Speakers or Elvish Dreams and not making a "bad" character.

That said, it's actually pretty potent. Because of the probabilities inherent in multi-dice rolls, narrow misses are common than larger misses. Also, although a bow has a 1/6 chance of rolling Edge, that's an average of misses and hits. A miss is less likely to make Edge than a hit is. So turning a narrow miss into a Pierce is actually pretty nifty.

If I were building a melf archer I'd take it.

Maybe. Still not helpful to Elves of Lorien, though. And it should be good for them, too.

Insect King wrote:You need to explain your model better because it is unclear.

Okay, basic model:

If you are hindered, rather than prevented entirely, from shooting your bow, the penalty does not apply unless that penalty is directly from enemy action.

Insect King wrote:Thank you for not allowing me to play The One Ring by the gracious refusal you disdainfully uttered from your position of self-appointed magnanimity.

I'm not sure exactly what you're saying here. Nobody is saying you can't play TOR. Nobody is even saying you can't play it how you want, we're just expressing an opinion on how useful playtesting is. Also...I'm not sure what disdain you think I was throwing your way, but that wasn't my intent and you're definitely the one coming off as hostile from my perspective.

Insect King wrote:A person who is fighting with a bigger shield is at a bigger disadvantage when he can't use it to protect her or himself.

That logic doesn't quite work for me. But even if it did, it still doesn't solve the issue of giving an Elf of Lorien an Injury 20-21 a fair bit of the time...

Okay, how about this? It combines a few ideas I've had with Glorelendil's most recent and makes things...interesting without being overpowered, IMO. You can pretty easily mess around with exactly how the Hindrance reduction works and keep the rest the same to boot, BTW, if my language is still unclear.

Deadly Archery

...their small knives... would have been of no use against the arrows of the Elves that could hit a bird’s eye in the dark.

Most members of your kin possess a natural talent for hitting the mark when using their bows. You seem to
possess that quality yourself, as your arrows find their target with uncanny precision.

When you first gain this Virtue you learn the secrets of One With The Wind, and may gain Crippling Shot, or Expert Bowman by spending a Fellowship Phase undertaking training your archery skills and expending 1 point of experience.

One With The Wind: As long as your arms are free and you are physically capable of shooting a bow, you ignore hindrance penalties from adverse conditions such as wind or darkness (but not those from active enemy opposition of some kind) when shooting a bow, and the range of your bow attacks is doubled. Additionally, when you spend Hope on a ranged attack, add your basic Heart score to the attack roll.

Crippling Shot: When making Called Shots with a bow or great bow, you may also use the Maiming Strike and Break Armor Called Shot options, despite those normally only being available to other weapon types.

Expert Bowman: You may use a greatbow at no penalty with the Bow skill if you wish, or a bow with the Greatbow skill. You may also, if you possess the (Bows) weapon skill group, treat it as Favored.

Deadmanwalking wrote:I'm not sure exactly what you're saying here. Nobody is saying you can't play TOR. Nobody is even saying you can't play it how you want, we're just expressing an opinion on how useful playtesting is. Also...I'm not sure what disdain you think I was throwing your way, but that wasn't my intent and you're definitely the one coming off as hostile from my perspective.

For the next Adventuring Phase assign your character with both the Patient and Fair-spoken traits, assuming you do not already have them.

That's an excellent point about Lorien Elves not getting additional benefit from my re-wording of the original Deadly Archery benefit. I hadn't considered that.

Still, despite that I'm still ending up with a preference for this version of it:
- It's the most similar, in spirit, to the original version
- It has a consistent theme, derived from the source quote ("hitting a bird's eye in the dark")
- It's true that Lorien elves won't get the new benefit of the modified language, but they still get the original Deadly Archery, plus all the new penalty reductions to range and Hindrance (which by themselves are the version that some have expressed a preference for).
- Most importantly, it's a tempting choice without becoming a must-have option. You can still be a perfectly competent Mirkwood Elf archer without taking it.

/thread

Rich H wrote:For the next Adventuring Phase assign your character with both the Patient and Fair-spoken traits, assuming you do not already have them.

Thanks! I think I already had Fair-spoken, but Patient is new.

Glorelendil wrote:That's an excellent point about Lorien Elves not getting additional benefit from my re-wording of the original Deadly Archery benefit. I hadn't considered that.

Still, despite that I'm still ending up with a preference for this version of it:
- It's the most similar, in spirit, to the original version
- It has a consistent theme, derived from the source quote ("hitting a bird's eye in the dark")
- It's true that Lorien elves won't get the new benefit of the modified language, but they still get the original Deadly Archery, plus all the new penalty reductions to range and Hindrance (which by themselves are the version that some have expressed a preference for).
- Most importantly, it's a tempting choice without becoming a must-have option. You can still be a perfectly competent Mirkwood Elf archer without taking it.

/thread

I think all of the above points are also pretty applicable to my most recent version.

Huh. Slightly off-topic, but I was just looking over the Adventurer's Companion, and finally noticed that it buffed bows as opposed to Great Bows. The Rain of Arrows called shot is bow only (no great bow allowed). That's...interesting. Maybe something can be done with that.

Just re-read some dozen pages from 2015... This topic is a maze

For my own campaign, I adapted the idea from Horse-archery:
"You are allowed to use a bow from any combat stance, as if it were a close combat weapon".
(It was proposed by Dunkelbrink too, at page 60)

Well, not that I'm trying to persuade anyone
...but it fits my idea of giving the different cultures markedly different behaviours. And it reinforces the stereotype of the Elf armed with Bow and just a Knife

I struggle with that one. I have to admit it adds an interesting dimension, but it triggers my PJ alarm bells. I'd probably like it better if I had never seen the movies.

Glorelendil wrote:I struggle with that one. I have to admit it adds an interesting dimension, but it triggers my PJ alarm bells. I'd probably like it better if I had never seen the movies.