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Oh...that's not bad.

EDIT:

But, on further consideration, doesn't it just make more sense to do what you've been promoting all along: apply environmental hindrances more often, and let Deadly Archery negate them?

So instead of letting the MElf archer go Forward in the woods, getting a base TN of 6 while the other archers all have TN 12, you apply penalties of -2 or -4 to all archery (or to everything, or to all two-handed weapons, etc.), which the MElf then ignores. The numbers don't quite work out to the same thing, but I just like the aesthetics better.

Glorelendil wrote:Oh...that's not bad.

EDIT:

But, on further consideration, doesn't it just make more sense to do what you've been promoting all along: apply environmental hindrances more often, and let Deadly Archery negate them?

So instead of letting the MElf archer go Forward in the woods, getting a base TN of 6 while the other archers all have TN 12, you apply penalties of -2 or -4 to all archery (or to everything, or to all two-handed weapons, etc.), which the MElf then ignores. The numbers don't quite work out to the same thing, but I just like the aesthetics better.

Well yes, but people seemed to not be listening to me.

zedturtle wrote:

Glorelendil wrote:Oh...that's not bad.

EDIT:

But, on further consideration, doesn't it just make more sense to do what you've been promoting all along: apply environmental hindrances more often, and let Deadly Archery negate them?

So instead of letting the MElf archer go Forward in the woods, getting a base TN of 6 while the other archers all have TN 12, you apply penalties of -2 or -4 to all archery (or to everything, or to all two-handed weapons, etc.), which the MElf then ignores. The numbers don't quite work out to the same thing, but I just like the aesthetics better.

Well yes, but people seemed to not be listening to me.

I am!

I think the best version is:
- Include the existing benefit, just because. (Although possibly modify it to apply to all Hope expenditures, not just attribute invocations, for the reason I explained a few pages ago.)
- Reduce all hindrances and ranges by one step.
- For 1 XP and an FP reduce all hindrances by two steps.

And then, of course, actually start applying hindrance modifiers.

I really do think that all "Great" weapons should explicitly suffer minor hindrance in the woods anyway. Or maybe a rule that "whenever there is a moderate hindrance due to confined spaces, such as indoors or in the woods, this is increased to severe hindrance for "Great" weapons.

Glorelendil wrote: I think the best version is:
- Include the existing benefit, just because. (Although possibly modify it to apply to all Hope expenditures, not just attribute invocations, for the reason I explained a few pages ago.)
- Reduce all hindrances and ranges by one step.
- For 1 XP and an FP reduce all hindrances by two steps.

And then, of course, actually start applying hindrance modifiers.

I have to admit, as much as I *really* want to improve the archers chances when doing a Called/Prepared Shot, that this is the option that would work best, and fit the quote, and not be overpowered, etc.
I'm very tempted to substitute the existing benefit (1 Hope allows for a bonus to hit) for something else not related to Hope, but to Prepared Shot. But that's my own inner itch, so I'll try to keep you all free of my rumblings.

Glorelendil wrote: I really do think that all "Great" weapons should explicitly suffer minor hindrance in the woods anyway. Or maybe a rule that "whenever there is a moderate hindrance due to confined spaces, such as indoors or in the woods, this is increased to severe hindrance for "Great" weapons.

Yes, this seems very needed for various reasons to me, as explained here:
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=2398&p=21837&hilit= ... ood#p21820

Specially the fact that cultures that narrow spaces as their homeland have also short weapons in their skills (Bows for Woodelves and as a choice for Woodmen, Short Sword for Dwarves).

Falenthal wrote: I'm very tempted to substitute the existing benefit (1 Hope allows for a bonus to hit) for something else not related to Hope, but to Prepared Shot. But that's my own inner itch, so I'll try to keep you all free of my rumblings.

Well, only once...

"Praised be the bow of Galadriel, and the hand and eye of Legolas!’ said Gimli, as he munched a wafer of lembas. ‘That was a mighty shot in the dark, my friend!" -The Great River, The Fellowship of the Ring

When declaring a Prepared Shot Combat Task, roll Awareness. You'll get a -1TN to your next attack for each level of success.

Plus, of course:

- Reduce all hindrances and ranges by one step.
- For 1 XP and an FP reduce all hindrances by two steps.

Falenthal wrote:

Falenthal wrote: I'm very tempted to substitute the existing benefit (1 Hope allows for a bonus to hit) for something else not related to Hope, but to Prepared Shot. But that's my own inner itch, so I'll try to keep you all free of my rumblings.

Well, only once...

"Praised be the bow of Galadriel, and the hand and eye of Legolas!’ said Gimli, as he munched a wafer of lembas. ‘That was a mighty shot in the dark, my friend!" -The Great River, The Fellowship of the Ring

When declaring a Prepared Shot Combat Task, roll Awareness. You'll get a -1TN to your next attack for each level of success.

Plus, of course:

- Reduce all hindrances and ranges by one step.
- For 1 XP and an FP reduce all hindrances by two steps.

I kinda like that. Is there a precedent for rolling a skill as part of an attack?

Would Insight be better? Or Hunting?

And I'd probably make it 2 TN per success. For several reasons.

Glorelendil wrote:
I kinda like that. Is there a precedent for rolling a skill as part of an attack?

In Tales from Wilderland, during the Crossing of Celduin adventure, there are rules for the archery competition.
They include an Awareness pre-roll to asset the wind, distance, etc for archers. It works a bit different, but I think the way it works there would be too powerful. This are the rules there, found at page 114, under "Qualification rounds":

Qualification Rounds
Each companion makes two skill tests for every
qualification round. The first test is to gauge the situation
and prepare (evaluation test) and the second to resolve
the contest itself. The TN used is the same for both rolls in
a round and is indicated in the Contests table below.
• Succeeding in the evaluation test gains a companion
one Success dice to use in the second test, a great
success gives two dice, and an extraordinary success
gets three dice.

Also, or course, the new Combat Task Seek a Mark:

Rearward Stance: Seek a Mark
‘Now I have him at the arrow-point,’ said Anborn.
A hero fighting in a rearward stance may forego their
chance to make an attack to make an Awareness or
Battle roll to observe the enemies, looking for the best
opportunity to catch them when they lower their guard.

Mmmph... now that I see it, they kind of overlap one another, don't they? [I must admit, I'm not using Seek a Mark in my games. It feels like thematically doing the same as Prepared Shot, and needs too much bookkeeping for my liking].

Glorelendil wrote: Would Insight be better? Or Hunting?

And I'd probably make it 2 TN per success. For several reasons.

Regarding the Skill, Awareness gets along well with elves. I would be tempted to make it Search, though, as it is the skill for "active perception", instead of the "passive perception" of Awareness. [p.90 Revised book, under Search: "Awareness is used to see if the characters passively notice something. A successful Search roll generally lets the characters find what they are looking for if it is to be found."]

Making it a -2 TN per level of success wouldn't be too powerful?
But if tied to Search, that all Elves (Mirkwood, Lórien and Wayward) begin at 0 ranks, it can become interesting.

Falenthal wrote: Also, or course, the new Combat Task Seek a Mark:

Rearward Stance: Seek a Mark
‘Now I have him at the arrow-point,’ said Anborn.
A hero fighting in a rearward stance may forego their
chance to make an attack to make an Awareness or
Battle roll to observe the enemies, looking for the best
opportunity to catch them when they lower their guard.

Mmmph... now that I see it, they kind of overlap one another, don't they? [I must admit, I'm not using Seek a Mark in my games. It feels like thematically doing the same as Prepared Shot, and needs too much bookkeeping for my liking].

Answering myself...

No, they don't. Both are Combat Tasks (Prepare Shot and Seek a Mark).
Seek a Mark makes it easier for the archer to hit during several rounds (very good at starting levels, as Deadmanwalking pointed out in another thread), but nothing else.
Prepare Shot with Deadly Archery revisited allows a chance to improve the success of a Called Shot (Pierce or Rain of Arrows).
In fact, not only don't they overlap, they give more chances and options for an elven archer to choose from every round.

Of course, they could be chained:
Round 1: Archer forgoes his attack for a Seek Marck Combat Task (that requires a skill check to be succesful).
If succesful (at least for 2 rounds), the next rounds get the TNs reduced by -4.
Round 2: Archer forgoes his attack for a Prepare Shot Combat Task and does an Awareness (Search?) skill test.
Let's say he gets a Great Success (-4TN)
Round 3: Stacking both bonuses, he shots for a Pierce Called Shot with -8TN, after having lost 2 rounds of attacks, and succeeding at two skill tests.

I don't think +2 per success would be overly powerful. You'd only consistently get +4/+6 at higher skill levels, when you probably don't need it. At low levels you'd often get no bonus at all.

I'll try to run some numbers later today. If Legolas has skill 5, and the shot was TN: 30, what were his odds, with and without this house rule?

Glorelendil wrote:I don't think +2 per success would be overly powerful. You'd only consistently get +4/+6 at higher skill levels, when you probably don't need it. At low levels you'd often get no bonus at all.

This makes me think that the skill checked should be one that elves in general at good at from the start (Awareness, or even Athletics for the "eye-hand coordination" think). Otherwise, at low levels -when those bonuses are more needed- it won't help at all most of the time.

Glorelendil wrote: I'll try to run some numbers later today. If Legolas has skill 5, and the shot was TN: 30, what were his odds, with and without this house rule?

Thanks!